The Big Picture: Mutants and Masses

Ph33nix

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you seem to be getting most of your info from second hand sources and the name of the group as opposed to the group.
 

wulf3n

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Elamdri said:
Because "fixing" something is expensive and gaming companies are a business. A company like BioWare certainly could probably fix the ending of Mass Effect without really cutting hard into the bottom line. But what about other companies?
Is it? what is the "fix"? how much does the fix cost?

Elamdri said:
What happens when it comes time for them to create a game?

"Well guys, should we try something risky and innovative?"
"Well what if we screw up? Look what happened to BioWare. They messed up and people forced them to make a new ending to their game. We couldn't do that. No, we better just make Gears of Halo: Modern Combat 5. "
umm no ones "forcing" Bioware to do anything. The decision of "fixing" the ending is entirely theirs, even when fans "DEMAND" an ending that means about as much to Bioware as beg.

And you still haven't addressed the issue of "how is this WORSE than the current state of things?"

How many game companies have gone under because the consumers didn't like their game? Westwood, Troika, Iron Lore, Factor 5, Shiny Entertainment etc.

"Well guys, should we try something risky and innovative?"
"Well what if we screw up? Look what happened to Westwood, Troika, Iron Lore, Factor 5, Shiny Entertainment. They messed up and went out of business. That could happen to us. No, we better just make Gears of Halo: Modern Combat 5. "
 

Ogargd

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Mass effect 3's endings were disappointing because they were all the same (and crap), the fact bioware lied about having very different endings based on choices throughout the three games is what has caused a lot of the out rage.

Also I doubt I or anyone I know will bother with another Ninja turtles movie.
 

Masterdebator

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In the same idiotic and nearsighted fashion as Colin Moriarity of IGN, Bob misses the point as to why people are mad over the ending by equivocating two completely different mediums who received fan backlash.

One involving zero user input in the new Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles film.

One involving a huge amount of user input/ player choice in Mass Effect 3 (and the trilogy on the whole).

The lack of understanding how Mass Effect has worked as a player-driven story is unbelievably ignorant and the condescending "How to be a fan and a grown-up" was completely ridiculous.

Considering Bob has made countless videos lashing out at films in a fanboyish and at times acting in a flat out childish manner, the sheer hypocrisy in his moronic judgment call of Mass Effect's fanbase is unbelievable.

Clearly this video was made without understanding any of the issues as to why anyone was upset with the game (ex. the ending effectively making all your person choices null and void, the ending lacking any form of closure, the countless plot holes the game creates, the recoloring of one ending instead of an aforementioned 16 different endings, etc. etc.)

I don't expect anything out of IGN. But I expected better out of Moviebob.

Go read the Forbes articles by Erik Kain if you want an accurate and respectable analysis of the ME3, and not some pompous tool telling the people to "grow up" and hiding behind the blatant strawman argument of games being "art".

I imagine Bob took the ME3 scandal as just another case of "nerd rage" or something, and simply decided to speak down to everyone (once again) and lash out at "geek culture" (as if the term "geek" or "nerd" mean anything in today's technologically and internet driven society).

He really should have done a bit of research before making this video. It would have helped him not look like an idiot.

This video is perhaps even more hypocritical considering a film I've seen Bob champion by the name of Blade Runner, which was famously re-released as a Director's Cut, and is now generally seen as the superior version of the film and a complete improvement on the original ending.

What's that about "artistic integrity"?

Oh that's right. It's a bullshit strawman argument.

Games are products. Films are products. Music is a product. Books are products.

They can all be re-released and improved by going back to the original and improving on what's there, whether it's tweaking the sound quality in a minor fashion or flat out changing the ending.

Retake ME3 sounds like a grand idea. I'd love to re-play the game without encountering countless plot holes, my eyelids disappearing every other cut scene, and having some semblance of closure to the trilogy.
 

Masterdebator

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MovieBob said:
wootsman said:
This best explains the whole Mass Effect 3 controversy.
Ye. Gods. The sheer level of smugness in that video is STUNNING - and please keep in mind who's saying that.

Auteur theory can't apply to video games because they're team-efforts? So is film, which is where the medium the phrase "Auteur Theory" was originally coined for. "Staff of fan-fiction writers?" The same tired "these people have no qualifications!" trashing of game journalists? "You're just praising 'art games' to sound smarter?" Give me a break.
And even with smug comments in hand, and a flimsy auteur theory argument, he plainly depicts the on-going problems with Bioware, legitimate shortcomings of Mass Effect 3 (ending and the game itself), and the strawman arguments used by the gaming press to defend Mass Effect 3's ending.

He made an argument 100 times more convincing than your pompous and infinitely more smug "grow up" rant for the sake of "art".

He also clearly did his research when making that video.

You should try that before opening your mouth and spouting nonsense.

Stick to movies Bob.
 

I.Muir

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Squidbulb said:
Most gamers, especially the fanboys, and presumptuous arrogant morons who will sulk whenever they get something that isn't perfect. I've especially noticed this with Mass Effect fans who want everything to be exactly as they imagined it and nothing less. Seriously, just grow up and get over it, there's no use crying over a video-games, and a rather mediocre one as far as I'm concerned at that.
Bioware don't owe you anything. If an ending to a game is seriously the worth complaining about than you need to seriously consider a brain transplant. If I thought it would do any good I'd march on over to heaven and ask for Edd Gould back but I know that sometimes life just isn't fair and you can't complain about every little problem because the universe doesn't revolve around you.
Sounds like trollbait to me.
That or you like trying to take a non existent superior higher ground.

(Semi related)
Also it's odd that people bothering to defend bio ware/ ea in this conflict tell the fans to grow up because it's just a video game.
Whilst at the same time others or even the same people claim that the company has a right to keep their artistic integrity which would mean that it's not just a video game.

In case you hadn't noticed, your posting on a website devoted to the idea that games are not just trivial pastimes for kids. If they can be considered art and they are, then it is understandable people might be as offended at what was obviously a cheap, last second attempt at being meaningful. The very idea that this obvious mistake can be defended on the ground that it is art is insulting. I might not have even cared so much about such a bad ending if it was not for the ridiculous way in which the devs themselves were directly insulting their own fans. I'm still suspicious though that it's all just a sinister plan to make an even bigger cash grab on the part of EA. As if we people were not being ripped off enough by paying more than the price of a DVD and having day one DLC on top of that.
 

I.Muir

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cursedseishi said:
Masterdebator said:
I imagine Bob took the ME3 scandal as just another case of "nerd rage" or something, and simply decided to speak down to everyone (once again) and lash out at "geek culture" (as if the term "geek" or "nerd" mean anything in today's technologically and internet driven society).
That's likely exactly what he did. He has come out and said before that he has practically ZERO experience with the Mass Effect Franchise in general, and probably wouldn't be able to tell you the difference between a Geth and a robot.
Yet instead of sticking to the age-old system of "Speak of only that which you are knowledgeable of", he jumps ass-first into the situation.


Which, of course, makes it oh so easy for him to just throw away any comment about it in favor of his own. Worst yet, is he's pretty much the same way with Nintendo over, oh say, Sony. If it isn't swaying under Nintendo's crotch, he'll more than likely hate the crap out of it for no real reason whatsoever.


I hate to play the broken record about Mass Effect 3. Yet I'll say it as it has been said other times. Taken as a whole series (like it should be), the ending doesn't line up with everything else. Throughout the first two games, you were able to shape the endings to a satisfactory conclusion, with the endings having just enough to ensure you feel as though your choices mattered.
Mass Effect 2 and it's final hour or so of gameplay is a shining paragon of this. Every choice you made, the quests you taken on, it all culminates into one final set piece. Characters live or they die depending on what upgrades you've made, whose loyalty you worked to gain, and how quickly you reacted to the threat.

Mass Effect 3 shuffles even all illusions of player-choice aside by sweeping everything under one generic rug. Did you save this or alter that? Well it doesn't matter because either the Reapers had a spare in their pocket, or either way they all join right up in the end (even if your choice was supposed to be guaranteed protection from that). Any little thing that may help you, no matter how big or small, is reduced to a simple statistic.
You honestly can't tell me that in those final moments, you weren't wanting to see everything come together like it did in ME 2. You can't tell me that, when that final assault begins, that you didn't want to see all the races you chose to help or sided with coming together for a final ditch effort to take out a galactic threat.
I hope movie bob got paid for that bad decision, otherwise he just lost the respect of a lot of the people that watch his videos for no damn reason. How it a good idea to lash out at the geek culture who he caters to with most of his videos?
 

Masterdebator

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I.Muir said:
I hope movie bob got paid for that bad decision, otherwise he just lost the respect of a lot of the people that watch his videos for no damn reason. How it a good idea to lash out at the geek culture who he caters to with most of his videos?
I've always respected Bob as a pretty educated guy. A bit overzealous with his feminist ideals, but he's a good critic of films nonetheless.

However, the constant bashing of "geek culture" (which I'd argue doesn't exist and is just Bob showing his age) and making huge judgment calls about groups of people (be it frat boys or fanboys) has always irritated me.

He gets away with it because Bob works for a supposed "geek" website and I imagine considers himself to have some geek like tendencies and interests, but regardless, the bashing has long past being funny and now comes off as an act of Bob stroking his own ego as he supposedly puts the "geeks" in their place (while displaying them in a perpetually dogmatic fashion with the fanboy picture from Freakazoid).

With this video, however, the sheer level of condescension crossed from merely being annoying to rude and insulting.

Probably because Bob failed to address any of the actual reasons behind why people were mad, and used the ME3 outcry to stroke his own ego and regurgitate the same flawed "artistic integrity" argument the shills of the gaming press have been vainly spouting.

I don't Bob should ever cater to his audience (he'd stop being a critic if he did), but he clearly needs to think before he opens his mouth.

You'd think Bob would be old enough to know that by now.

Kinda goes against that little line about people complaining about ME3's legitimate flaws needing to grow up, when Bob clearly needs to take some of his own medicine.

Not to mention get his ego checked.
 

Masterdebator

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Elamdri said:
Bob ragged on a lot of stuff, but I don't remember him ever demanding that someone change their work because he was unhappy with it.
Because it's a film and the audience of a film has no input on how the narrative operates.

Mass Effect as a franchise is a special case in the sense that it's narrative is entirely driven by player choice, so when that choice is inexplicably taken away at the finale of ME3, when it never had been during ME1 or 2, people should be understandably confused and upset, even more so when the ending delivers no sense of closure and makes all there "difficult decisions" and every single choice throughout the trilogy irrelevant.

The fact that Bob didn't bring this up shocks me.

Comparing being upset with a film's ending to ME3's ending is absolutely redundant and does not fly.

Jegsimmons said:
Bravo Movie bob for putting them in their place.
Bob only managed to show he knows diddly fuck about Mass Effect 3's flaws and is entirely ignorant towards people's complaints. And its kiss ass fanboy posts like these that destroy forums.

He didn't put anyone in their place. You can't when you're entirely clueless to the issue at hand.
 

Jegsimmons

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Masterdebator said:
Elamdri said:
Bob ragged on a lot of stuff, but I don't remember him ever demanding that someone change their work because he was unhappy with it.
Because it's a film and the audience of a film has no input on how the narrative operates.

Mass Effect as a franchise is a special case in the sense that it's narrative is entirely driven by player choice, so when that choice is inexplicably taken away at the finale of ME3, when it never had been during ME1 or 2, people should be understandably confused and upset, even more so when the ending delivers no sense of closure and makes all there "difficult decisions" and every single choice throughout the trilogy irrelevant.

The fact that Bob didn't bring this up shocks me.

Comparing being upset with a film's ending to ME3's ending is absolutely redundant and does not fly.

Jegsimmons said:
Bravo Movie bob for putting them in their place.
Bob only managed to show he knows diddly fuck about Mass Effect 3's flaws and is entirely ignorant towards people's complaints. And its kiss ass fanboy posts like these that destroy forums.

He didn't put anyone in their place. You can't when you're entirely clueless to the issue at hand.
you know what buddy, i disagree with half of what bob says at the time, but i can see he is right on this issue, you fan boys will ***** about anything mass effect related and think it should appease you, guess what, april mother fucking fools.
if you dont like the ending, fine, ***** about it with your friends. but dont expect anybody else to even remotely give a shit. i wasnt fond of the ending to watchman (comic or movie), now was i fond of the ending to 'to kill a mockingbird' my all time favorite movie. but i still enjoy them because i know nothing will fit to every ones code of perfection.
you dont own the series, bioware or who ever does, and if they wanted to make shepard eat a bowl of zebra jizz, then they can make him, you have a right to be pissed off and criticize it, but dont expect to not experience backlash from complaining to much when you fucking bought it.
Deal with it. i put up with the star wars prequels and moaned about them. i didnt start 50 god damn threads over it. i just said "welp, its happened, might as well hope it improves" (it did).
really i think bob nailed it right on the head. you people are going apeshit
over
a
lack
luster
rpg.

Thats right i said it, the mass effect series was never godly to begin with, its average. its nothing that new. yes it is fun, yes it kills time, yes its well written. But is isnt return of the fucking king.

How about complementing the good on mass effect 3 instead of bitching about the thing everyone bitches about. let them know what they did right as opposed to wrong. and if you are truly pissed.....
DON'T
FUCKING
BUY
IT.
 

Karadalis

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A company like BioWare
Bioware isnt a company it is a label.. a brand name... a shield for EA to hide behind.

All money comes from EA.. bioware does not have its own money. All decisions that would cost additional money have to be greenlighted by EA.

"Bioware" doesnt even have the right to say that they will change anything on the game without EA giving its okay.. because you know... its EAs money that flows into the product not Biowares.

So really this whole "Bioware caved in" is complete and utter BS because it is not their decision to begin with.

As i said time after time.. artistic integrity my ass when the artists themselves dont get to decide jack squat about their own art.
 

Yvressian1

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Should game companies stop releasing patches because it compromises the "artistic integrity" of a "finished product"?
Most people don't want a ending, they want it , patched, if you will. There is a big difference.
 

Elamdri

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Masterdebator said:
Mass Effect as a franchise is a special case in the sense that it's narrative is entirely driven by player choice, so when that choice is inexplicably taken away at the finale of ME3, when it never had been during ME1 or 2, people should be understandably confused and upset, even more so when the ending delivers no sense of closure and makes all there "difficult decisions" and every single choice throughout the trilogy irrelevant.
Choice wasn't taken away at the end of ME3, you just didn't get choices you wanted.

And who is to say that choices weren't taken away from you at the end of ME1 and ME2?

What if I thought Saren had a good idea? Where was my "Side with Saren" option at the end of ME1? What if I wanted to be Sovreign's monkey boy? Why didn't I have that choice.

What if at the end of ME2 I was all like, "Dude Cerberus is awesome, let me be your number 2 guy!" or something like that? Why was I denied that choice?
 

zephae

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If failing to deliver what you said you would in interviews and press releases merits and FTC complaint, then you might as well just have an open complaint on Peter Molyneux.
 

Something Amyss

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zephae said:
If failing to deliver what you said you would in interviews and press releases merits and FTC complaint, then you might as well just have an open complaint on Peter Molyneux.
Oooh, false equivalency. We needed some of that going around.
 

infinity_turtles

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I love the way people tend to argue about this subject.

To me, ME3's ending and the FTC complaint and what not is not an art or quality issue. It's more a consumer rights issue. Bioware repeatedly promised shit you did in previous games would have an impact on the ending and be relevant. The ending instead was pretty much the Deus Ex endo-tron three button ending. I'd call that false advertising. They blatantly lied to their fans to maintain the hype of the game. They should be punished for this. The punishment I'd say is the horrible backlash, and hopefully a loss of a large number of fans and future sales. Nothing will probably come of the FTC complaint because when it comes to games lies about features are all too common and ignored.

I object to being lied to about the features of a product I paid 60$ for. The fact that it's common and ignored in the industry doesn't justify or make it alright when a company does it.
 

Kahunaburger

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Elamdri said:
Choice wasn't taken away at the end of ME3, you just didn't get choices you wanted.
IMO, the mark of a skilled RPG narrative is when the developers successfully anticipate most rational choices players will want to make.
 

Yvressian1

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Revolutionaryloser said:
Not that I want to argue that point, but I find it interesting that gamers have developed some sort of Stockolm Syndrome where we now demand patches whereas a few years ago the mere idea of a patch was too horrible to imagine.
Actually, I don't think much has changed. A patch has always been a good solution to a problem that shouldn't have existed in the first place.
Also, a few years ago, games were still simple enough from a programming perspective that it was feasible to release a game with almost no bugs, whereas these days that's completely impossible due to the complexity of the game design in most triple-A games, as well as the vast amount of hardware compatibility issues.

Another thing that bugs me to no end is that crass text prompt at the end of the credits that says: "Good job, skipper! Now buy some DLC!" This is also what makes me think that this has all been a ploy to release a "real" ending as DLC in order to milk a few more dollars. While it might make sense from a short-term financial perspective, it's completely unacceptable, and is the kind of thing that might actually make an FTC complaint make sense on the grounds that consumers were promised a complete product, but were withheld a crucial part of it and made to pay to get it.