The Big Picture: She-Hulk Shaming

[ExtraDebit]

Bob you should do an episode about your thoughts on quicksilver appearing in both xmen and avengers movies. Should be an interesting episode with your knowledge on both movies and comics.

 

[Seracen]

Well said Bob! I'd go off on a tirade, if I said everything I wanted to, but I never considered She-Hulk sexist. Cynically sexy, as you stated, but not "slutty." That's like saying female Olympians look like sluts simply because of the garb they must wear to do the things they have to do.

I could hardly see male-fantasy and sexist dehumanization travelling the path of a character that could kick all her male-cohorts' asses...but that was part of what Wonder Woman dealt with back in the 80's...so what do I know?

Still, She-Hulk was one of my faves, specifically "Sensational." Smart, strong, snarky, and self-aware, she starred in some of my fave comics. I also like the idea that a woman could still be attractive with a toned body...not all ladies have to be "pasty stick figures with poofy lips" that can't even look at a burger/steak/real food.

 

[PunkRex]

I've always had a soft spot for She-Hulk, i've never read the comics but from what i've seen of her she just seems really nice, like an aunt or friendly next door neighbor.

 

[Baresark]

She is a great character. She always was. Also, I never thought of the traditional Marvel male heroes as a subversion of the classic "male power fantasy". That is something that makes me love the House of Ideas even more. David Goyer is an idiot, for the record.

 

[Sylocat]

Two thoughts:

1. So, would this make David Goyer a fake geek guy?

2. I'd love to see a TV series about She-Hulk's legal practice, where we can see what a legal procedural would look like in the MCU.

 

[Coreless]

Finally! She-Hulk!, before I say more I want to say thanks Bob for finally putting out a video about She-Hulk, easily my favorite comic book heroine for reasons I am about to disclose. The original Savage She Hulk was the first comic book series I ever read and a focal point for my descent into nerd-dom. It didn't get me to become a full blown comic nerd but it was definitely were I started to head that direction and eventually get me into gaming as a kid. Her comics also inspired me to get into bodybuilding at an early age and it has become a way of life for me, lifting and exercising in general are two things I absolutely love to do. I think its pretty funny looking back at the original She-Hulk series and recognizing they are pretty dull by todays standards, but as a kid I found them awesome and inspiring. I guess it just goes to show that even side characters can be meaningful and have a dedicated fan base; I love me some She-Hulk *thumbs up*.

 

[CrazyBlaze]

Oh hey, my powers of clairvoyance are still up and running I see. That, or this was just predictable from the beginning to the end.

Yaknow, having grown up without being exposed to a lot of Western comics might have been a good thing, now that I think of it.

I mean, they're all just wish fulfillment and nothing else.

So things like manga aren't? You know with the over the top action? Or the nerd who gets all the girls? Or the the shy girl who has guys falling all over her? Or the destroying the planet action? I mean lets be honest her. Many types of entertainment across the world are about wish fulfillment. Not all, but many of them are.

 

[daxterx2005]

I wouldn't mind a She-Hulk movie, who would they get to play her?

 

[Guilen-]

This might have just made my day. Any effective dispelling of high-profile cynicism is always a good thing, especially on a topic like this.

 

[Trishbot]

So She-Hulk was trying to out Deadpool Deadpool? Well OK by me, she sounds like an interesting character.

Not "trying". Succeeding. She was "doing the Deadpool" before Deadpool even existed.

Seriously loved that book...

 

[Zombie Badger]

I get the feeling that Goyer has a lot of self-loathing regarding his love of comic books. The man is clearly a comic fanboy (I read his script for Jumper and it was nothing but a power fantasy about one) but he seems to consider himself above them.

 

[hentropy]

What would be your first reaction if someone said "we should make a movie out of a show where the main character dresses like this! [http://puu.sh/93HBb.png]"

A big part of the issue is that Goyer isn't just some random person on the internet. If he were, it would be a lot more forgivable. But he's one of the point men on adapting superheroes to the big screen. He should know better.

There's apparently a live-action Cowboy Bebop film in the works. What would you think if the scriptwriter for that was one of the people who was just panning Kill la Kill as objectifying or over-the-top garbage?

I'd think something had gone horribly, horribly wrong, myself.

Personally, Hollywood has bungled pretty much every eastern media property they've been handed, I don't have much confidence that they'll be able to do any anime property competently. Pretty much all the "projects" get stuck in development hell before being cancelled anyway, just as the Akira movie did. Someone connected to the film saying something ignorant about anime would just seem par for the course. Perhaps it shouldn't be, but I can't say I'd get mad over it.

That does expand on the issue a bit more, I suppose, I guess I still can't blame Goyer's point of view so much when there are societal standards when it comes to nudity and acceptable amounts of sexiness. Even if it is a real empowerment icon or whatever, it's going to be seen by the uninitiated as sexy green muscle porn.

I think you CAN blame Goyer, largely because, if ANYONE should know the actual background of the comic book industry, it's the guy tasked with writing THE JUSTICE LEAGUE for Warner Bros. Instead, he casually threw out the fact that a founding member of that team is "too goofy' to work on screen (despite Marvel doing a movie with a talking raccoon with a machine gun), or that She-Hulk, a character several decades old that resonates strongly with male AND female comic readers, is just sexual eye candy (and he's the guy in charge of bringing Wonder Woman to the big screen). He SHOULD know better, and that has me concerned for how he'll write Wonder Woman if he has so little understanding or basic respect for a prominent comic book heroine like She-Hulk.

It's a fair point that he should perhaps know better, and if he isn't that familiar with the subject matter then he should refrain from commenting on it. It certainly was not a tactful approach to the question.

Getting all outraged at this I guess just shows a lack of perspective on the part of western comic fans (which wouldn't be the first time).

I would respectfully argue that, if anyone lacks perspective, it's David Goyer for making statements blatantly ignorant of nearly 35 years of comic book exposure, prominence, evolution, or current reception. To simply see a hot green girl, know absolutely nothing about her other than she's a female Hulk, and just assume she exists for horny male teenagers to get hot over is insulting to the creators (Stan Lee was very upset by the remarks, as he should be), the readers (who are painted in one broad "you're all nerdy virgins" statement), and to several female readers and writers who have struggled hard to change this stupid, ignorant, nauseating male-driven culture in comics (Gail Simone, one of the most prominent female comic book writers, wrote quite a bit on this issue on her twitter. It's worth tracking down).

If anything a long history of evolution only complicates things, because his first exposure to the She-Hulk might not have been most people's exposure to the content, and his exposure may have been to something that even fans of the series don't like. Again, he still shouldn't have answered the question, but it's not like She-Hulk is the Batman, I had never heard of her before now, and I consider myself to have at least cursory knowledge of the major players in western comics.

Let's try a little game.

What would be your first reaction if someone said "we should make a movie out of a show where the main character dresses like this! [http://puu.sh/93HBb.png]"

What you actually think of it may not matter much, but what do you think most people's reaction would be? There's no way that would be acceptable. Kill la Kill will likely never see the light of broadcast television, even on Toonami (where they seem just terrified to air a show with a female lead or with too many female characters). Never mind that the show is explores all different kinds of interesting and difficult subjects (such as the concept and implications of clothing in general) and is every bit as "empowering" as you describe the She-Hulk to be, you'll have a segment of people who will just pan it as objectifying or over-the-top garbage.

I would say a big difference is the main character from Kill la Kill is a totally recent creation, not one with over three and a half decades worth of story, baggage, societal relevance, evolution, or cross-generational appeal, along with mainstream exposure in everything from cartoons to toys to video games to her own brand of romance novels to bumping shoulders with THE most recognizable comic characters on the planet. Her level of exposure, regardless of quality, is significantly higher than a character in a short anime series.

Again, I think you might be overstating She-Hulk's exposure and influence a bit. She might mean a lot to fans of her material as well as fans of comic book superheroines generally, but to the general public, she simply does not have that much notoriety, and that matters when you're talking "can we make this into a movie?"

Beyond that, despite how well Kill la Kill handles mature topics and "empowerment" (largely by sexualizing absolutely EVERYONE instead of just the girls), the series is quite literally designed with fan-service prominently in mind as a key element to its existence. She-Hulk, largely, is a character NOT defined by her sex appeal (often downplaying it entirely because, you know, she's a professional lawyer), and often shows up in the comics in legal suits or on the street in regular jeans and athletic wear, not nipple suspenders or bikini thongs. She actually DOES demand you take her seriously as a character (both characters in the comics and the readers themselves).

I think those are some very key differences in conceptualization and execution between the two.

And that's where you show a fair bit of prejudice and bias. The whole point of this discussion is pointing out that just because someone shows skin doesn't mean they are a slut or immoral, and that's one of the most prominent messages in Kill la Kill, that there's nothing inherently sexual or wrong with nudity or the human body. Just because the She-Hulk wears a suit and is a lawyer when she's not the She-Hulk doesn't erase the fact that her looks is the key selling point of her character, you don't see her in a suit, presenting herself as a serious career woman on the cover the comic books, you see her in her "sexy" form.

And there's nothing wrong with that. It's empowering to you because she uses her strength and body as a symbol of feminine power, and that's nothing to be ashamed of. Satsuki from Kill la Kill uses pretty much the same exact reasoning, never being ashamed of her nudity because if that's what it takes to attain power, she'll happily wield it. The character is based not around her "sexuality", there's very little actual sexuality in the series (which isn't the case with the She-Hulk, as she's apparently implied to be having sex rather frequently). Fanservice is a subjective concept, typically it refers to going out of one's way to show more skin, a beach or bath house in anime that takes up one or more episodes, for example.

In Kill la Kill, nudity is used as a symbol of rebellion (as the antagonist is a clothing company bent on world domination), and thus isn't just idle fanservice. Then there's smaller stuff, pantyshots (which in KlK seems tame) and choices of presentation angles, but you can't say that doesn't happen in most animation or comics. You labeling it as just a show based around showing nudity is essentially the same projecting and characterization that Goyer was giving the She-Hulk. I doubt you've watched much if any of the series, but are making generalizations about it based on what are likely broad descriptions or synopses.

Many of the examples of the She-Hulk in Bob's video, however, seemed like textbook fanservice no matter how you slice it, unnecessary depictions of meant mostly to show off her body.

So I guess what I'm saying is don't expect me to get all riled up about this or care too much about one western superhero who gets miscast as sexist when it happens pretty much all the time and people are just fine with it so long as the subject matter is foreign.

And, see, this is precisely why female writers and female readers struggle to overcome the "I don't care because this stuff happens all the time" mindset. It's not okay. It shouldn't be common. It shouldn't be acceptable. One bad decision that slips by unnoticed does not excuse other bad decisions that people do take umbrage with.

So let's stop making this something that happens "all the time" and start demanding people handling this stuff to grow the hell up and realize their impotent boys-club mentality that excludes half the planet and alienates female readers and creators isn't acceptable and shouldn't be tolerated. The push for change is there; there's no reason to give up just because morons who think they're untouchable still shoot their mouths off.

And it's hard to feel a lot of sympathy for western comic fans when they have a good bit of power and exposure, meanwhile eastern media is cast in an unfair and ignorant light all the time, and western comic fans never bat an eye, as they are often the ones perpetrating to misrepresentations to try and make their own hobby look somehow superior or more "classy" than the sexist anime trash.

 

[Winnosh]

I don't really know what to say about that. I didn't even know a she-Hulk existed before the video, and the video didn't really convince me that she's a feminist icon, even if she may not be totally sexist either. Does self-awareness make it less or not sexist?

In anime it's a common trope to have a kickass female protagonist who also happens to be wearing something incredibly skimpy. Take the example of Queen's Blade, a show with a very long list of kickass female characters- but it's also basically porn. Is the she-hulk not sexist because it never shows her in near-explicit sexual situations? Or are the various characters in the Queen's Blade series feminist icons as well?

Her sexuality is never a vulnerability for her, there's no rapeyness like in Queensblade.

 

[KiramidHead]

But seriously, why is David S. Goyer still writing the new Batman/Superman movie again? I mean, if Man of Steel's general buzz wasn't enough of a tip-off, his recent comments on not only She-Hulk but also the Martian Manhunter definitely should be!

Goyer was demoted to a "story by" credit quite a long while back. He was replaced by Chris Terrio, the writer of Argo.

OT: That was actually more interesting than I thought it would. I'm generally not interested in gender flipped spinoff characters, but She-Hulk seemed to go quite a bit beyond that.

 

[Clankenbeard]

I love comics. And John Byrne is an all time favorite artist of mine. (I own that Hulk 314 also drawn by Mr. Byrne.) But She-Hulk never played out as a great character for me. She DID always seem to fight C-list baddies. I've seen this cover in the bargain bin a hundred times.....and now I can't find it anywhere on the web. She was ripping an engine out of a car. Fight the Absorbing Man, why don't you! DOn't fight cars.

I have been out of comics for decades now. But I almost preferred the story of Titania to She-Hulk. Puny girl with a chip on her shoulder gains great strength and wants to beat up the world. Great strength with flawed character. Thank you Marvel Secret Wars...oh and for starting the Venom storyline too, I guess. She-Hulk always seemed too "together" to like as a character. Other comicbook lawyers I know at least have smoe vision problems or half a face.

 

[franksands]

sensational she-hulk was awesome. I would pay good money for a "breaking the 4th wall" she-hulk movie

 

[-Dragmire-]

Well then, this was far more interesting than I gave it credit for.

Good show!

 

[elvor0]

Yaknow, having grown up without being exposed to a lot of Western comics might have been a good thing, now that I think of it.

I mean, they're all just wish fulfillment and nothing else.

And y'know, enjoyable to read. The primary reason people read anything. To me this just goes into the box of "I learned a little about some literary/mechanical device and now I'm above anything involving it." Similar to the "This game is bad because it's just a skinner box, I couldn't /possibly/ understand why someone would enjoy it"

In Kill la Kill, nudity is used as a symbol of rebellion (as the antagonist is a clothing company bent on world domination), and thus isn't just idle fanservice. Then there's smaller stuff, pantyshots (which in KlK seems tame) and choices of presentation angles, but you can't say that doesn't happen in most animation or comics. You labeling it as just a show based around showing nudity is essentially the same projecting and characterization that Goyer was giving the She-Hulk. I doubt you've watched much if any of the series, but are making generalizations about it based on what are likely broad descriptions or synopses.

I'm sorry, what? I've watched Hentai with more justification for their characters running around naked than that >< How you just described it make it sound /exactly/ like a show based around nudity, because you described the nudity as one of the main plot elements. She Hulk is sexy sure, but it isn't a driving part of the narrative.

There's a difference between having a justified plot element and creative softcore porn with a framing device added in reverse. I mean surely the characters could just wear clothes not created by the evil clothing company? Or steal them and use the superpowers they grant to their own ends? I mean they must get pretty fucking cold at night. And if the nudity wasn't "fanservice" then why go for panty shots and whatnot, because they clearly /are/ fanservice. If the main characters are running around naked, the pantyshots seem like a waste of time.

I mean the outfit Ryuko Matoi is wearing has clearly been designed to titulate. Which is fine, it goes into the same catagory as the Dragons Crown Sorcerer and plate mail bikinis, but lets not pretend that it's justified for any reason beyond what the artist found hot.

I mean I'm sure the show is fun and all, heck, I actually sat down and watched Bible Black and the sequel with subs because I enjoyed the plot and that /is/ a porno anime, but the nudity does sound like it's there for the sake of it.

 

[LazyAza]

I'm sure we'll get shehulk in a marvel movie some day and that'll be pretty rad. Then again I'd like to see more female comic book characters in general finally get on screen since their are so many. Hope some day we get a decent teen titans film but with dc and their idiots in charge urgh who knows.