The Big Picture: SUPERMESS

Team Hollywood

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SUPERMESS

Cavill out - or is he? Superman movies over - Supergirl movies on? What's happening in the chaos of the DCEU?

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The Great JT

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I really hope DC turns it around and makes these movies worth it, even without Batsy and Supes. Seriously, how crazy would it be if out all of DC's "throw superheroes at the wall and see what sticks" desperate attempts, it turns out Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel (no I won't refer to him as Shazam, I'm too used to him being Captain Marvel) and perpetual running joke Aquaman are your big-money characters. Not "Mr. Overexposed" Batman, not the face of the franchise Superman, the two they've had success with in the past, but three slightly-less-prominent heroes. Next you'll tell me Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter will get over.
 

WindKnight

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The Great JT said:
I really hope DC turns it around and makes these movies worth it, even without Batsy and Supes. Seriously, how crazy would it be if out all of DC's "throw superheroes at the wall and see what sticks" desperate attempts, it turns out Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel (no I won't refer to him as Shazam, I'm too used to him being Captain Marvel) and perpetual running joke Aquaman are your big-money characters. Not "Mr. Overexposed" Batman, not the face of the franchise Superman, the two they've had success with in the past, but three slightly-less-prominent heroes. Next you'll tell me Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter will get over.
Keep in mind, Marvel's success came from 2nd stringers and obscure oddities because all their big properties (X-men. Fantastic 4, Spiderman) were owned by other film companies. So if DC's success comes from similarly 'low appeal' characters rather than their superstar characters, it would only be par for the course.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Windknight said:
The Great JT said:
I really hope DC turns it around and makes these movies worth it, even without Batsy and Supes. Seriously, how crazy would it be if out all of DC's "throw superheroes at the wall and see what sticks" desperate attempts, it turns out Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel (no I won't refer to him as Shazam, I'm too used to him being Captain Marvel) and perpetual running joke Aquaman are your big-money characters. Not "Mr. Overexposed" Batman, not the face of the franchise Superman, the two they've had success with in the past, but three slightly-less-prominent heroes. Next you'll tell me Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter will get over.
Keep in mind, Marvel's success came from 2nd stringers and obscure oddities because all their big properties (X-men. Fantastic 4, Spiderman) were owned by other film companies. So if DC's success comes from similarly 'low appeal' characters rather than their superstar characters, it would only be par for the course.
Really? Captain America, Hulk, and Iron Man were considered second stringers and obscurities?

You may as well say the same about Wonder Woman because she has not gotten a major movie until now.
 

Devieus

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Samtemdo8 said:
Windknight said:
The Great JT said:
I really hope DC turns it around and makes these movies worth it, even without Batsy and Supes. Seriously, how crazy would it be if out all of DC's "throw superheroes at the wall and see what sticks" desperate attempts, it turns out Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel (no I won't refer to him as Shazam, I'm too used to him being Captain Marvel) and perpetual running joke Aquaman are your big-money characters. Not "Mr. Overexposed" Batman, not the face of the franchise Superman, the two they've had success with in the past, but three slightly-less-prominent heroes. Next you'll tell me Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter will get over.
Keep in mind, Marvel's success came from 2nd stringers and obscure oddities because all their big properties (X-men. Fantastic 4, Spiderman) were owned by other film companies. So if DC's success comes from similarly 'low appeal' characters rather than their superstar characters, it would only be par for the course.
Really? Captain America, Hulk, and Iron Man were considered second stringers and obscurities?

You may as well say the same about Wonder Woman because she has not gotten a major movie until now.
I would say kind of? Spiderman and X-men had their own cartoons and the Fantastic 4 were very distinct. Meanwhile Cap, Hulk and Iron man were more like that guy with the shield, that angry green guy and the walking suit of armor.
 

JimB

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Samtemdo8 said:
Really? Captain America, Hulk, and Iron Man were considered second stringers and obscurities?
Iron Man was definitely B-list at best prior to Robert Downey Jr. I think people were aware of Captain America, but no one actually cared about him until the movie made him awesome. People obviously knew Hulk, but he doesn't count as part of the MCU success because his (most recent) eponymous movie wasn't especially well-liked.
 

Callate

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The tension between "admit we were wrong about our ability to pull this off" and "throw good money after bad" certainly makes for interesting theater, if lousy cinema.

I had some modest hope for Batgirl under Whedon. Hodson's past writing credits are... Not inspiring. And powers know Transformers doesn't set a high bar, but the trailer of Bumblebee squeezes so many attempts to emotionally manipulate the audience into its short run-time that you want to send it to counseling.

I haven't seen Cavill show a huge emotional range. He was enjoyable enough in the most recent MI, albeit in a role that demanded more plausibility as a physical threat than great acting chops. It does kind of make one wonder if what stands between him and reliable headliner status is less his abilities than connecting with a director with whom he has synergy- a Tim Burton for a Michael Keaton, a Coppola for a Brando.

Speaking of racially diverse casting, there was chatter at one point about a Dwayne Johnson-headed Black Adam movie- I wonder if that's still in the cards. (Or if they're waiting to see the results of Shazam!)
 

Ukomba

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JimB said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Really? Captain America, Hulk, and Iron Man were considered second stringers and obscurities?
Iron Man was definitely B-list at best prior to Robert Downey Jr. I think people were aware of Captain America, but no one actually cared about him until the movie made him awesome. People obviously knew Hulk, but he doesn't count as part of the MCU success because his (most recent) eponymous movie wasn't especially well-liked.
Iron Man and the Hulk had several cartoons between the 1960's and movies. Hulk even had a fairly popular live action tv show in the 70's. There was a period in the 90's when the X-Men and Spiderman were more popular, that that wasn't always the case. Captain America has always struggled though, despite Reb Brown's best efforts. ;)
 

vallorn

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Ukomba said:
JimB said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Really? Captain America, Hulk, and Iron Man were considered second stringers and obscurities?
Iron Man was definitely B-list at best prior to Robert Downey Jr. I think people were aware of Captain America, but no one actually cared about him until the movie made him awesome. People obviously knew Hulk, but he doesn't count as part of the MCU success because his (most recent) eponymous movie wasn't especially well-liked.
Iron Man and the Hulk had several cartoons between the 1960's and movies. Hulk even had a fairly popular live action tv show in the 70's. There was a period in the 90's when the X-Men and Spiderman were more popular, that that wasn't always the case. Captain America has always struggled though, despite Reb Brown's best efforts. ;)
Hulk also had a standalone movie prior to the MCU. A lot of people forgot about it though.

Also, we still need a Captain Britain movie, and another Blade movie. Cmon Marvel step it up, Wesley Snipes was an awesome Blade but judging by current movie goers enough people have forgotten about it that you could reboot it safely... Plus you'd get to play with the supernatural horror elements of Marvel a little and broaden the tone, even if Blade and vampires are an inherently silly concept.

But also Captain Britain.
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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What WB really needs to do is keep out of its own movies. Just give the executives a coloring book to keep them distracted and let the storytellers do their jobs
 

Darth_Payn

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I'm giving it a wait-and-see attitude to see how SHAZAM!, Aquaman, and Wonder Woman '84 turn out, and to hear something definite about Superman's casting. But Bob's right; it's the writers and directors who should decide the tone that fits the story.
 

monkey_man

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I have seen superman, and did not care for it, and I've seen Batman vs Superman, and did not care for it. I have grown wary of DC movies, but I hope they can fix it. I loved the dark knight trilogy. If more good DC movies come out, I might revisit these new DC movies, And I've heard good things about wonder woman, but for now I'm not really interested in watching it.

However, I think that recasting superman as a black person is a grave mistake. Let me explain. I feel like casting Superman as a black person fundamentally undermines "black characters". This black washing is boring. There already are powerful and interesting black (super)hero characters, such as Blade, Black Panther, Storm, Hancock Agent Jay, etc. I really liked all of those characters. However, just blackwashing a "white character" feels like taking something away from the already established black characters, instead of adding to their "lineup". Superman as a character might be interesting as a black person, to see his struggle as Clark Kent from a completely different angle.

It's just that I fail to see why that story can't be told by creating a new character called "omega man" or something. Same basic plotline: Super-powered humanlike alien gets sent to earth, gets adopted by humans, hides his powers under the disguise of an affable but harmless oaf, saves the planet from evil etc. Only now "Omega man" is a black character instead of a white character. I feel like such an attempt would be infinitely better and more interesting than: "this character that's been around for literally 80 years(!!!) is now black".

And before someone calls me racist because I am clearly a cis white man who doesn't know shit about anything, imagine the outrage, the sheer fucking outrage if the Black Panther were to be re-casted (for some reason) as a white actor.

( I believe the image's intent is to provoke and to be a crude joke, I don't think the artist actually drew Black Panther as white because they thought that was what he looked like, or should look like. The interesting thing here is the comment section. The artist is put away as a racist and a dumb ass *****. If this comment section is justified in their negative response, and I think it is, why can't the same outrage be justified when the roles are reversed?)

 

hentropy

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monkey_man said:
However, I think that recasting superman as a black person is a grave mistake. Let me explain. I feel like casting Superman as a black person fundamentally undermines "black characters". This black washing is boring. There already are powerful and interesting black (super)hero characters, such as Blade, Black Panther, Storm, Hancock Agent Jay, etc. I really liked all of those characters. However, just blackwashing a "white character" feels like taking something away from the already established black characters, instead of adding to their "lineup". Superman as a character might be interesting as a black person, to see his struggle as Clark Kent from a completely different angle.
I do agree with this bit, I think if Black Panther shows anything it's that historically black superheroes can stand on their own without necessarily dipping into established franchises. People want more and varying super heroes and stories, not just reboots of reboots of 90-year old franchises that have more or less run their course storytelling wise.

And before someone calls me racist because I am clearly a cis white man who doesn't know shit about anything, imagine the outrage, the sheer fucking outrage if the Black Panther were to be re-casted (for some reason) as a white actor.
The main difference is that Superman is an alien prince from outer freaking space who grows weak when he's around fantastical space rocks. This isn't some small detail, I think one of the reasons Superman caught on so much with audiences of all kinds, all around the world was the fact that he was implicitly not human, and thus was above concepts of human bigotry and cruelty. There's no reason he "has" to look like a white man, really the idea that he looks exactly like a human despite being an alien is so absurd on its face. At least Goku had a tail.

T'Challa, on the other hand, is a human from Africa, and magic space rocks make him strong. But unlike the themes of Superman, which was all about a hero above lowly human issues solving human problems, Black Panther (the movie, at least) is also thematically about the oppression faced by Africans and African-descended people all around the world. Having an intrinsically European Jewish character and making them an African Christian would be just as wrong, not because of anything have to do with the hue of the skin.
 

09philj

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Samtemdo8 said:
Windknight said:
The Great JT said:
I really hope DC turns it around and makes these movies worth it, even without Batsy and Supes. Seriously, how crazy would it be if out all of DC's "throw superheroes at the wall and see what sticks" desperate attempts, it turns out Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel (no I won't refer to him as Shazam, I'm too used to him being Captain Marvel) and perpetual running joke Aquaman are your big-money characters. Not "Mr. Overexposed" Batman, not the face of the franchise Superman, the two they've had success with in the past, but three slightly-less-prominent heroes. Next you'll tell me Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter will get over.
Keep in mind, Marvel's success came from 2nd stringers and obscure oddities because all their big properties (X-men. Fantastic 4, Spiderman) were owned by other film companies. So if DC's success comes from similarly 'low appeal' characters rather than their superstar characters, it would only be par for the course.
Really? Captain America, Hulk, and Iron Man were considered second stringers and obscurities?
They were big names in the comics, but remember that the comics weren't nearly as well known or popular ten years ago.
 

PhiMed

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Devieus said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Windknight said:
The Great JT said:
I really hope DC turns it around and makes these movies worth it, even without Batsy and Supes. Seriously, how crazy would it be if out all of DC's "throw superheroes at the wall and see what sticks" desperate attempts, it turns out Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel (no I won't refer to him as Shazam, I'm too used to him being Captain Marvel) and perpetual running joke Aquaman are your big-money characters. Not "Mr. Overexposed" Batman, not the face of the franchise Superman, the two they've had success with in the past, but three slightly-less-prominent heroes. Next you'll tell me Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter will get over.
Keep in mind, Marvel's success came from 2nd stringers and obscure oddities because all their big properties (X-men. Fantastic 4, Spiderman) were owned by other film companies. So if DC's success comes from similarly 'low appeal' characters rather than their superstar characters, it would only be par for the course.
Really? Captain America, Hulk, and Iron Man were considered second stringers and obscurities?

You may as well say the same about Wonder Woman because she has not gotten a major movie until now.
I would say kind of? Spiderman and X-men had their own cartoons and the Fantastic 4 were very distinct. Meanwhile Cap, Hulk and Iron man were more like that guy with the shield, that angry green guy and the walking suit of armor.
There is a huge audience of people whose only memory of Marvel Comics prior to Rami's Spiderman films is a little show called The Incredible Hulk that pulled gigantic ratings in the 80's.

Yes, that was a long time ago, but the people who remember that show definitely have more money than you.
 

PhiMed

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hentropy said:
monkey_man said:
However, I think that recasting superman as a black person is a grave mistake. Let me explain. I feel like casting Superman as a black person fundamentally undermines "black characters". This black washing is boring. There already are powerful and interesting black (super)hero characters, such as Blade, Black Panther, Storm, Hancock Agent Jay, etc. I really liked all of those characters. However, just blackwashing a "white character" feels like taking something away from the already established black characters, instead of adding to their "lineup". Superman as a character might be interesting as a black person, to see his struggle as Clark Kent from a completely different angle.
I do agree with this bit, I think if Black Panther shows anything it's that historically black superheroes can stand on their own without necessarily dipping into established franchises. People want more and varying super heroes and stories, not just reboots of reboots of 90-year old franchises that have more or less run their course storytelling wise.

And before someone calls me racist because I am clearly a cis white man who doesn't know shit about anything, imagine the outrage, the sheer fucking outrage if the Black Panther were to be re-casted (for some reason) as a white actor.
The main difference is that Superman is an alien prince from outer freaking space who grows weak when he's around fantastical space rocks. This isn't some small detail, I think one of the reasons Superman caught on so much with audiences of all kinds, all around the world was the fact that he was implicitly not human, and thus was above concepts of human bigotry and cruelty. There's no reason he "has" to look like a white man, really the idea that he looks exactly like a human despite being an alien is so absurd on its face. At least Goku had a tail.

T'Challa, on the other hand, is a human from Africa, and magic space rocks make him strong. But unlike the themes of Superman, which was all about a hero above lowly human issues solving human problems, Black Panther (the movie, at least) is also thematically about the oppression faced by Africans and African-descended people all around the world. Having an intrinsically European Jewish character and making them an African Christian would be just as wrong, not because of anything have to do with the hue of the skin.
I want to believe your interpretation of the character, but Superman's motto, until very recently, was "truth, justice, and the American way!". That phrase, when uttered in the 1950's, doesn't exactly scream, "hooray diversity!" Perhaps in the 80's, but that's not when that motto caught fire.
 

gorfias

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I want Harrison Ford to play Supes next. We need something for the old timey amongst us.
 

Pyrian

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PhiMed said:
Devieus said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Windknight said:
The Great JT said:
I really hope DC turns it around and makes these movies worth it, even without Batsy and Supes. Seriously, how crazy would it be if out all of DC's "throw superheroes at the wall and see what sticks" desperate attempts, it turns out Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel (no I won't refer to him as Shazam, I'm too used to him being Captain Marvel) and perpetual running joke Aquaman are your big-money characters. Not "Mr. Overexposed" Batman, not the face of the franchise Superman, the two they've had success with in the past, but three slightly-less-prominent heroes. Next you'll tell me Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter will get over.
Keep in mind, Marvel's success came from 2nd stringers and obscure oddities because all their big properties (X-men. Fantastic 4, Spiderman) were owned by other film companies. So if DC's success comes from similarly 'low appeal' characters rather than their superstar characters, it would only be par for the course.
Really? Captain America, Hulk, and Iron Man were considered second stringers and obscurities?

You may as well say the same about Wonder Woman because she has not gotten a major movie until now.
I would say kind of? Spiderman and X-men had their own cartoons and the Fantastic 4 were very distinct. Meanwhile Cap, Hulk and Iron man were more like that guy with the shield, that angry green guy and the walking suit of armor.
There is a huge audience of people whose only memory of Marvel Comics prior to Rami's Spiderman films is a little show called The Incredible Hulk that pulled gigantic ratings in the 80's.
Yeah, the Hulk was well known. But his film didn't do so well. The MCU's success started with Iron Man, definitely a "2nd stringer", but until Guardians of the Galaxy (more like 3rd stringers) it mostly stayed there (Cap and Thor movies just weren't making Iron Man or team-up movie returns until Civil War - which prominently featured Iron Man).
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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monkey_man said:
I have seen superman, and did not care for it, and I've seen Batman vs Superman, and did not care for it. I have grown wary of DC movies, but I hope they can fix it. I loved the dark knight trilogy. If more good DC movies come out, I might revisit these new DC movies, And I've heard good things about wonder woman, but for now I'm not really interested in watching it.

However, I think that recasting superman as a black person is a grave mistake. Let me explain. I feel like casting Superman as a black person fundamentally undermines "black characters". This black washing is boring. There already are powerful and interesting black (super)hero characters, such as Blade, Black Panther, Storm, Hancock Agent Jay, etc. I really liked all of those characters. However, just blackwashing a "white character" feels like taking something away from the already established black characters, instead of adding to their "lineup". Superman as a character might be interesting as a black person, to see his struggle as Clark Kent from a completely different angle.

It's just that I fail to see why that story can't be told by creating a new character called "omega man" or something. Same basic plotline: Super-powered humanlike alien gets sent to earth, gets adopted by humans, hides his powers under the disguise of an affable but harmless oaf, saves the planet from evil etc. Only now "Omega man" is a black character instead of a white character. I feel like such an attempt would be infinitely better and more interesting than: "this character that's been around for literally 80 years(!!!) is now black".

And before someone calls me racist because I am clearly a cis white man who doesn't know shit about anything, imagine the outrage, the sheer fucking outrage if the Black Panther were to be re-casted (for some reason) as a white actor.

( I believe the image's intent is to provoke and to be a crude joke, I don't think the artist actually drew Black Panther as white because they thought that was what he looked like, or should look like. The interesting thing here is the comment section. The artist is put away as a racist and a dumb ass *****. If this comment section is justified in their negative response, and I think it is, why can't the same outrage be justified when the roles are reversed?)

Maybe not with T'Challa, but hear me out: what about a white South African child displaced by the Boer War and manages to be picked up by a member of the Wakandan Border tribe or something?

As for Black Superman, well, if you wanna do that you can just use the one alternate reality one where Jor-EL and Lara were black, and subsequently so was Kal-El. Mind it would make for some awkward fucking questions (or compelling drama) if the still very much white Kent family suddenly had a very much black baby.

Alternatively there's Steel (could be a hard sell depending on who remembers Shaq's version), Firestorm, Jon Stewart (fuck I wish that guy got more love), Vixen, Spawn (if we're desperate), and more. We just gotta go digging.