The Big Picture: SUPERMESS

Naqel

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Goliath100 said:
Just letting you know: Racists don't care as long as you can pass as white.
Maybe because they aren't racists, they just really would like for the hero they grew up with to not be reimagined for the n-th time as a completely different character(adding a racial context IS a completely different character)?
 

Schadrach

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Naqel said:
Goliath100 said:
Just letting you know: Racists don't care as long as you can pass as white.
Maybe because they aren't racists, they just really would like for the hero they grew up with to not be reimagined for the n-th time as a completely different character(adding a racial context IS a completely different character)?
No, you just don't understand the rules. Being opposed to reimagining a white character as non-white is racism, as is reimagining a non-white character as white. Suggesting that one might use other existing untapped PoC characters to tell a story or even create new characters instead of racebending existing ones is definitely racism. Because the point isn't to have more PoC representation but rather to take control of existing franchises. Because the sorts of people who push "diversity" and "inclusivity" generally don't want to create, only control.

Hell, drawing a shapeshifting genderless space rock using a too pastel version of their color palette is deserving of threats being directed at you for trying to remove the implicit racial coding of the character design, according to the Steven Universe fandom.
 

Goliath100

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Naqel said:
Maybe because they aren't racists, they just really would like for the hero they grew up with to not be reimagined for the n-th time as a completely different character(adding a racial context IS a completely different character)?
I was talking in general, in real life. Racist doesn't care if you're of color as long as you can pass as white.
 

Jacked Assassin

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I no longer have the urge to have comic book characters stick to "the original" thanks to bad ideas like Barakapool. I can just enjoy the fact that Deadpool is Red & Black without a need to focus on his skin tone. And sure once Ryan Reynolds decides to no longer be Deadpool I'll be okay with Wade Wilson being the annoying relative of Sam Wilson. Which might make him black. And could make me look forward to a proper PG-13 Spawn movie.
 

Something Amyss

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My response? I...don't care. I mean, I don't care if Cavill is in or out. I want DC to make good movies, and while Justice League was somewhat of an improvement over BVS, it wasn't far enough out of that shadow to make me care. I'm not likely to go see a Batfleck movie, no matter how awesome that one scene from the video game...I mean movie was. I will probably give Aquaman and Shazam a shot because they do look like they may be different, and Wonder Woman 2 is a given. And without even having seen a trailer I will likely check out the Flash movie because Barry was one of the few bright points of JL.

But I don't really care who is Batman or Superman or if they do more movies until they show they can make one that looks like I won't want to slip out the back ten minutes in.

Samtemdo8 said:
Really? Captain America, Hulk, and Iron Man were considered second stringers and obscurities?
You mean the franchises Marvel had the rights to because literally no studio wanted them because they weren't popular enough/ Yeah, kinda.

annoyinglizardvoice said:
I now really want to see Mr Jordan as Steel.
But how can he live up to the cinematic masterpiece that was the Shaq movie?
 

webkilla

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Bob's point that DC has a villain problem is a good one - I still cannot for the love of it figoure out why they made the joker like they did in Suicide Squad.

Then again, maybe they just used the same 'logic' that got TLJ's screenplay green - who knows?

Either way its just really weird, because DC keeps cranking out pretty good animated superhero movies. They should nab some writers from those productions for their live action stuff
 

Hawki

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Something Amyss said:
My response? I...don't care. I mean, I don't care if Cavill is in or out. I want DC to make good movies, and while Justice League was somewhat of an improvement over BVS,
I think every DCEU movie is better than BvS so...
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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webkilla said:
Bob's point that DC has a villain problem is a good one - I still cannot for the love of it figoure out why they made the joker like they did in Suicide Squad.

Then again, maybe they just used the same 'logic' that got TLJ's screenplay green - who knows?

Either way its just really weird, because DC keeps cranking out pretty good animated superhero movies. They should nab some writers from those productions for their live action stuff
I think all Superhero movies, both DC and Marvel, have a villain problem of killing off their villains in the first cinematic appearence.

Red Skull in Captain America is now dead and because of that we will never see any future stories and conflicts between him and Cap.

The point of the heroes letting the villain live most of the time is to still use them in future stories.
 

Trunkage

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Pyrian said:
There is a huge audience of people whose only memory of Marvel Comics prior to Rami's Spiderman films is a little show called The Incredible Hulk that pulled gigantic ratings in the 80's.
Yeah, the Hulk was well known. But his film didn't do so well. The MCU's success started with Iron Man, definitely a "2nd stringer", but until Guardians of the Galaxy (more like 3rd stringers) it mostly stayed there (Cap and Thor movies just weren't making Iron Man or team-up movie returns until Civil War - which prominently featured Iron Man).[/quote] It helped that Cap 2 was almost as good as GOTG. After Cap 1 being the worst movie in the whole franchise, it was nice to see them turn it around.


Naqel said:
Goliath100 said:
Just letting you know: Racists don't care as long as you can pass as white.
Maybe because they aren't racists, they just really would like for the hero they grew up with to not be reimagined for the n-th time as a completely different character(adding a racial context IS a completely different character)?
Getting worried about "reimagining" characters is a hard sell, irrelevant of race issues. If you think a character with 60 years of backstory can fit into a two hour movie, you are always going to be disappointed. Getting too bogged down in ticking off a checklist of characters traits is tedious. Civil War was not anything like what the comics had, but it fit the MCU at the time.
 

Something Amyss

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Hawki said:
Something Amyss said:
My response? I...don't care. I mean, I don't care if Cavill is in or out. I want DC to make good movies, and while Justice League was somewhat of an improvement over BVS,
I think every DCEU movie is better than BvS so...
Even Suicide Squad? Really?

The only positives I took from that movie were that Margot Robbie was sexy and I would watch Will Smith read the chemical composition of a Twinkie and pay money to do so.
 

Sanunes

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This whole Cavill thing really does strike me as a PR stunt by someone, either its the agents or people inside WB for there really isn't anything new that was said there it was just in a new frame.

Right now WB did best thing about two years ago when they removed Snyder from the overseer role of the DC movie franchise. His directorial vision just didn't match up with the majority of comic books with the flare for visual over substance. Now I could have my timelines all wrong, but that happened just after Batman v Superman and due to WB being morons were already so far into Justice League's filming they decided to push forward with it and that was also the time it was announced to be only one movie instead of two.

Wonder Woman was the midpoint of the conversion of the prior movies when Patty Jenkins had a lot more control and a different vision, but at the same time it felt like she still had to get the movie to fit within the prior movies and what I have seen with the recent footage is that DC is having their movies step further away now.

I wouldn't compare to DCTV to the DCMovie casting and choices too much the way I look at Batwoman being introduce is DC loosing the grips on the Batfamily, but at the same time still keeping them away from the bread and butter of the movie ticket sales in Batman. With the movies until its announced they are shooting the movie I don't put any weight behind was is said anymore so right now the only movies that I can judge the direction and future of the franchise on is Aquaman, Shazam, and Wonder Woman 1989 for everything is just on paper at best.

With that being said, I could see WB trying to use a different Kryptonian for the next Super movie because it seems they forgot to make a good Superman movie you cannot have it as a major action movie due to the powers he has, in a lot of ways I think Superman would best be used like Hulk where he is just part of another character's movie.
 

fix-the-spade

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Samtemdo8 said:
Really? Captain America, Hulk, and Iron Man were considered second stringers and obscurities?
Yes, very much so.

In fact the reason the MCU even exists as it does is because Marvel had sold off movie rights to The X-Men, Spiderman and The Fantastic 4 prior to the Disney buyout. Iron Man, Thor and Captain America were characters Marvel literally couldn't give away because they were considered second of third tier characters at best. There was an entire Blade trilogy before Iron Man had even been confirmed as happening, it was considered that obscure.

It's funny how quickly perception changes, but in 2006 casting the mostly washed up Robert Downey jr to play the lead in a film about a Superhero nobody but comic fans really knew or cared about was a colossal risk for Disney to take. Yet ten years later here we are, the world would rather go and watch Iron Man than Superman. That would have sounded crazy to teenage me.

If nothing else it's a demonstration of the idea that good movies will find an audience.
 

Something Amyss

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fix-the-spade said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Really? Captain America, Hulk, and Iron Man were considered second stringers and obscurities?
Yes, very much so.

In fact the reason the MCU even exists as it does is because Marvel had sold off movie rights to The X-Men, Spiderman and The Fantastic 4 prior to the Disney buyout. Iron Man, Thor and Captain America were characters Marvel literally couldn't give away because they were considered second of third tier characters at best. There was an entire Blade trilogy before Iron Man had even been confirmed as happening, it was considered that obscure.
Daredevil, Punisher, Ghost Rider and quite a few others, as well. Spider-Man and the X-Men are considered top tier, but we didn't just have a Blade trilogy first, we had an Elektra movie before we had Iron Man. Someone looked at that plot and thought "This is marketable."

It's funny how quickly perception changes, but in 2006 casting the mostly washed up Robert Downey jr to play the lead in a film about a Superhero nobody but comic fans really knew or cared about was a colossal risk for Disney to take. Yet ten years later here we are, the world would rather go and watch Iron Man than Superman. That would have sounded crazy to teenage me.

If nothing else it's a demonstration of the idea that good movies will find an audience.
It's even funnier when you consider they tried to replicate that success and make the Inhumans a thing people cared about and failed.
 

K12

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Goliath100 said:
Naqel said:
Maybe because they aren't racists, they just really would like for the hero they grew up with to not be reimagined for the n-th time as a completely different character(adding a racial context IS a completely different character)?
I was talking in general, in real life. Racist doesn't care if you're of color as long as you can pass as white.
I've always found this to be a weird defense.

I've heard this from Polish people with the Witcher Netflix series saying "don't ruin OUR story by making Ciri etc. black". Why are you fine with a white american playing a Polish characater but not a black american playing a polish character? How do black Poles feel about this?

I will agree that Ciri seems to be one of the harder characters to change her race and not change her backstory compared to other characters like: the other Witchers or the Sorceresses or some of the dwarf or elf characters.

The main complaint seems to be "I find it harder to identify with a character if they are black" and that is definitely racist.

Some superheroes are difficult to keep their original backstories if they aren't white men. Captain America was a hand-picked propoganda tool in WW2 and America was way too racist at the time to give that job to anything other than a clean-cut white dude. Batman and Ironman both come from old established wealthy families and that's still mostly a privilege reserved for white americans.

But Superman is a journalist from a humble farm boy background who is also an alien. That could easily be anyone.
 

Something Amyss

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K12 said:
I will agree that Ciri seems to be one of the harder characters to change her race and not change her backstory compared to other characters like: the other Witchers or the Sorceresses or some of the dwarf or elf characters.
Is this true? I'm not trying to argue because I demand she be black or something, but I legitimately was not interested in the Witcher games and found the one story I read boring as hell. I don't know much about Ciri, and if there's a reason it's difficult, I'm convinced the people I've seen complaining doin't either, because literally the only argument I've seen is that she's Polish. Well, based on Polish culture. And that seems like it'd apply to more than just Ciri specifically.
 

ace_of_something

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Schadrach said:
Naqel said:
Goliath100 said:
Just letting you know: Racists don't care as long as you can pass as white.
Maybe because they aren't racists, they just really would like for the hero they grew up with to not be reimagined for the n-th time as a completely different character(adding a racial context IS a completely different character)?
No, you just don't understand the rules. Being opposed to reimagining a white character as non-white is racism, as is reimagining a non-white character as white. Suggesting that one might use other existing untapped PoC characters to tell a story or even create new characters instead of racebending existing ones is definitely racism. Because the point isn't to have more PoC representation but rather to take control of existing franchises. Because the sorts of people who push "diversity" and "inclusivity" generally don't want to create, only control.

Hell, drawing a shapeshifting genderless space rock using a too pastel version of their color palette is deserving of threats being directed at you for trying to remove the implicit racial coding of the character design, according to the Steven Universe fandom.
Didn't people wig out because Starfire, who is an orange alien, was being played by an actress of African descent? (and in post they're going to turn her orange.)

Side note: IIRC George P?rez said in an interview that he designed Starfire with a latina style in mind.
 

Something Amyss

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ace_of_something said:
Didn't people wig out because Starfire, who is an orange alien, was being played by an actress of African descent? (and in post they're going to turn her orange.)
People wigged out because Rue was black in the Hunger Games movie.

...spoiler that's not really a spoiler: she was black in the books. Well, she was described in terms that would put her in the general ballpark of "black", because I don't remember them ever saying specifically she was black, but hopefully you get the point.

The same people were less concerned that Jennifer Lawrence was cast as an olive-skinned girl.