endtherapture said:
It's an origin movie, Superman hasn't yet "found" himself and I'm willing to give that up in the first film to get a more interesting, character-driven sequel where Clark is finding it place in the world. It's going for a different arc.
That is no excuse. If anything, it being an origin story should make the movie
all about establishing the characters, because without the characters everything else is meaningless. Sorry about the Avengers comparison again, but really it's the best example and I'm going to prove to you people don't think it's superior just because the writing is more witty. The beginning of Iron Man was spent setting up how much of an egotistical asshole Tony Stark was. The beginning of Captain America was spent setting up Roger's tendency to pick fights he could never win on principle. The beginning of Thor was spent establishing Thor's status as the son of Odin and a selfish, immature asshole.
And the rest of their films spent their time around character development. Yes, other things happened, but they made sure the events did not overpower the significant change in character. The part of Iron Man that sticks out the most in my mind is the part when Tony is in the cave, hooked up to a battery, and building the machine that would not only save his life but define his future. The part of Captain America that sticks out the most in my mind is the training scene when Rogers and the other privates are told to get the flag down from the flagpole, and Rogers shows them all up by taking the pins out of the pole and bringing it down to the ground, where he not only shows up all the muscleheads but also for one of the first times gets rewarded for his selflessness--and he himself doesn't see it as a big deal, and doesn't make a big deal of being rewarded for it. And the part of Thor that sticks in my mind the most is when Thor is destroying the Bifrost, choosing to do the right and mature thing of saving Asgard and Earth rather than trying to leave it open to serve his own selfish ends.
These stories are nothing without their characters, and so is Man of Steel. Hell, it's where they get their
titles from. The first movie should prioritize character development over everything else. Regardless of how much of their budget they blow on special effects, ultimately people go to a Superman movie to see
Superman. The Krypton stuff is interesting and all, but that isn't where the meat of the film should be, even in an origin story. Actually,
especially in an origin story, because like I said before all of this is nothing without characters. If I don't care about Kal El, I also don't care about where he came from. If I don't see a point in Lois Lane, I'm not going to look forward to seeing her in a sequel. And that is all the fault of the writers for favoring exposition over character development, and not looking hard enough to find a way to link the two.
It's an origin story. That event OBVIOUSLY set up the fact that he's against killing in later films because it traumatised him so much. I don't get why people don't get this, it's so obvious.
You keep saying this, and it's still not making it any better. If they wanted to set it up for him to be against killing people, they should have set it up long before then. And again, his actions in the final act with the fight should have reflected this. Character development 101: Actions speak louder than words. Remember all those favorite scenes from the Marvel movies I listed earlier? All actions. I didn't like those moments because of the "snappy, upbeat" writing, I liked them because they were satisfying moments which reinforced the tones and themes set up by the rest of the film. They were moments which reflected a greater pattern of development and change.
On top of that, your excuse doesn't make sense in the context of that scene. If he wasn't against Zod before he killed him, why all the hesitation in the first place? If he wasn't against killing before that moment, why was he even
considering putting that family in that much more danger in the first place? And why would the death of someone who was trying to deliberately kill others be so much more traumatizing to him than the millions of lives he ruined by staging his fist fight in New York? If there's any trauma that should have occurred from killing, it should have been from that, not from snapping Zod's neck.
War-Machine is in the first Iron Man movie right...when he doesn't really need to be? So that criticism can be leveled at Iron Man also.
No, War Machine was in the second Iron Man movie, and it was a logical development in the story since Tony went public about being Iron Man. While Iron Man was about Tony growing up as a person, Iron Man 2 was about him figuring out his role as a hero, and it was Rhodes as War Machine that helped him come to terms with the fact that he wasn't invulnerable and that he did have a responsibility to those around him. Rhodes in the War Machine suit directly aided in Tony's character development.
But please, if you want to keep throwing secondary Marvel characters at me to distract from Lois's deficiencies, continue. I'm guessing you have no rebuttal for my assessment of her role in the movie, since you opted to distract rather than to explain. My memory of the film isn't perfect (it's much harder for me to remember disembodied events than specific character moments), so it is very possible I missed something. You're the expert, if Lois is such a great character then tell me what the point of her is. What did she do in Man of Steel, that couldn't have been accomplished by anything else? And how would the film's outcome have been impacted without bringing up the Daily Planet, apart from simply not having the Daily Planet in a Superman movie?
And there's one more thing I'd like to make abundantly clear before we go any further. I'm not saying you shouldn't like the film. If you enjoyed Man of Steel, then that's perfectly fine, and I'm not trying to change that. What isn't fine here is that you have opted to say that
objectively, the characters and story are great, which simply isn't true. Just because a film isn't good doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't enjoy it, but your personal tastes do not substitute objectively good storytelling.
So again, I'm not asking you to dislike Man of Steel. But what I am asking you to do here is back up your claims that the characters and storytelling are objectively "great," and I'm hoping you aren't lying to yourself as an excuse to like the film. I enjoyed Star Trek: Into Darkness, and I am perfectly aware of all its flaws. I know the character development is a retread of the previous film, I know Scotty didn't get as much screen time as he deserved, I know the story is contrived and gimmicky. But I got some pretty good visceral thrills from it, and I got enough of a kick from Benadict Cumberbatch and Zachary Quinto that I can honestly say my overall feelings are a net positive.
So you can feel free to like Man of Steel for whatever reasons you do, that isn't what I want. What I want here is for you to stop trying to argue about objective storytelling problems with your subjective feelings about the film. It will get neither of us anywhere.