Wow, people must have seen a different Clerks 2 than i did. I loved about half of it then there was some point where the second part kicked in and it tanked for me.
The Big Picture: The Fall of Kevin Smith, Part II
- Thread starter MovieBob
- Start date
This goes back to a theory I've often held about Smith:
He's at his best when he does something that matters to him, I liked Mallrats when I was 10 and I liked JSBSB when I was 14... but those are probably my two least watched of the Askewniverse movies, I dunno, I like Smith when he's taking a plain or semi-serious topic and making a vaguely good movie with pretentions to being smart but mostly is about the conversation.
Smith himself has stated many times that he can only really write dialogue and dialogue is what he excels at, Smiths talky talk movies are by far his best.
Clerks II exemplifies this, it's a great movie with tons of laughs when it's dialogue hits, but it's the point after the musical number where it tips for me, the big set piece third act just doesn't work well for me, it's half brilliant tip to what Smith does best and a half lame duck attempt to get those who vehemently love goof ball slapstick on side.
He's at his best when he does something that matters to him, I liked Mallrats when I was 10 and I liked JSBSB when I was 14... but those are probably my two least watched of the Askewniverse movies, I dunno, I like Smith when he's taking a plain or semi-serious topic and making a vaguely good movie with pretentions to being smart but mostly is about the conversation.
Smith himself has stated many times that he can only really write dialogue and dialogue is what he excels at, Smiths talky talk movies are by far his best.
Clerks II exemplifies this, it's a great movie with tons of laughs when it's dialogue hits, but it's the point after the musical number where it tips for me, the big set piece third act just doesn't work well for me, it's half brilliant tip to what Smith does best and a half lame duck attempt to get those who vehemently love goof ball slapstick on side.
Probably not even that. As noted last week and hinted at by Bob himself this time, he's not actually that old. If he was a teenager when Chasing Amy came out, how old was he when Clerks came out? 13 or 14 maybe? Despite the constant talk of "us", Kevin Smith being a "projected self image of an entire generational subculture", and so on, none of it has anything to do with Bob, who was simply far too young at the time to have any idea about any of that. Clerks, and later films like Chasing Amy, follow early 20-somethings talking and learning about life, love, etc. In a geeky way that may well have appealed to people of that age just as Bob says, but also in ways that were specifically related to people of that age. Are we really supposed to believe that a 13 year old kid who certainly didn't grow up with the same popular culture as someone 10 years older than him and who simply doesn't understand adult issues, somehow felt the same way?bobdole1979 said:
It's not the Fall of Moviebob, it's Moviebob pretending to have a time machine and imagining how it might have been the Fall of MovieBob if only he'd been born a decade earlier.
Edit: And before anyone says anything, note that I'm not saying younger people couldn't enjoy Smith's films at all, but simply that they will not have seen them in the way Bob describes - as a "unification of the divded indie scene of the previous decade", for example. A 3 year old does not know what an indie scene is, so obviously they aren't going to view changes over the following decade in the same way as someone who starts off a teenager and hits their 20s and adulthood during that time.
Let's be honest, Alan Rickman as pretty much anything is genius.DTWolfwood said:
Watched Clerks and Chasing Amy. Didnt care about Clerks, though Chasing Amy was quite good though after watching it once ive got no real interest in watching it again. Not watched Dogma yet, though its on my rental list. But then i dont get the obsession with him. Im 37 so not like im to old or to young to appreciate his screenplays. But then i have that same thought about Tarantino.
Honestly this sounds like a case of unrequited fanboyism from someone who read to much into clerks, I mean honestly people raved for it because it was chic to do so at the time but other than being a realty good generational independent comedy there was no real indication that Kevin Smith was some kind of messiah. His movies all still have merit but you just have to take them at face value, I mean it seems like everyone that has similar thoughts about Smith as Movie Bob seems to have been waiting for smith next movie to be the "one" for some time now...where is this longing coming from? I just don't see it.
you really should have called this the rise and fall of Kevin smith.
I?m waiting for the movie that really speaks to my generation of nerds, and even more specific my generation of autist nerds.
02.14 didn?t you like that movie?
02.40 what movie is that? It kind of looks like high school musical.
I?m waiting for the movie that really speaks to my generation of nerds, and even more specific my generation of autist nerds.
02.14 didn?t you like that movie?
02.40 what movie is that? It kind of looks like high school musical.
Huh... okay then, so a slightly uneven filmography with some high points and low points, not bad overall, but heading into some event that would keep him stuck in a rut...
I've never seen any of his movies, so I'm fairly indifferent to him as a whole, I was a little young for Clerks when it came out, so I think I entirely missed the boat on that fandom and never heard much one way or the other to get me into it.
I've never seen any of his movies, so I'm fairly indifferent to him as a whole, I was a little young for Clerks when it came out, so I think I entirely missed the boat on that fandom and never heard much one way or the other to get me into it.
1981 is gen X? I was born in 1980 and have always considered myself the first of Gen Y. Though maybe time and generations move up faster out there on the coasts.
A lot of people have asked on this thread/previous thread why there's such a pile-on with Kevin Smith (and indeed MovieBob even asks in this video why we're even still talking about him). I think people are underestimating just how much anger and resentment Kevin Smith engendered with the Red State/Sundance auction. A lot of people in Hollywood, from critics to producers and agents, were furious about that episode, and some well-known critics called Smith a liar. Drew McWeeny, aka Moriarty of AICN(hardly a bastion of objectivity and professionalism) went so far as to vow never to write about Kevin Smith again. In short, people were PISSED that he said he was gooing to auction the film, then pulled the rug out, and then went around the studio system. This led to "sources" leaking word to the press and blogosphere that Kevin Smith was melting down, imploding, losing his mind, running up river with Col. Kurtz, insert whatever hyperbole you'd like.
I think between a couple of flops like Jersey Girl and Zack and Miri (which I love, for the record), the Red State auction backlash, the Southwest Airlines episode (yes, this is often used against him), and the fact that he can, at times, be a bit of loudmouth when it comes to criticism, have led a lot of critics and industry folk to turn on him and question why he even has the kind of deep, passionate fan following that he enjoys, which then leads his deep, passionate fan base to retaliate against said critics, and then those critics get pissed again and write/Tweet some more negative stuff, and so on and so forth.
Basically, it's just like the Mooby scene in Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back. The part where Jay unleashes on the critics, not the part with Shannon Elizabeth.
I think between a couple of flops like Jersey Girl and Zack and Miri (which I love, for the record), the Red State auction backlash, the Southwest Airlines episode (yes, this is often used against him), and the fact that he can, at times, be a bit of loudmouth when it comes to criticism, have led a lot of critics and industry folk to turn on him and question why he even has the kind of deep, passionate fan following that he enjoys, which then leads his deep, passionate fan base to retaliate against said critics, and then those critics get pissed again and write/Tweet some more negative stuff, and so on and so forth.
Basically, it's just like the Mooby scene in Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back. The part where Jay unleashes on the critics, not the part with Shannon Elizabeth.
I've never seen any of these movies and quite frankly when I started to really get into geek culture I had no idea who Kevin Smith was or what his significance was. I just thought he was some random jock that likes to wear hockey jersey's that isn't really into that stuff but they always have him report on it for some reason. That was how he always came off to me.Evonisia said:
Still yeah Red State is definitely a sign of him flaming out. Though, even if he did, I doubt it was as bad as say a certain filmmaker who just pushed Last Airbender 2 into production.
God help us all.
The two cheerleaders? That would be Glee and that would also be, a part from the soundtrack, one of the worst shows I've ever had the displeasure of seeing. i.e. The most fun character has Pikachu syndrom when it comes to her development and any actual interesting plot stuff is stuffed and gagged in a closet while romantic angst dominates the season until they decided "Oh we need to resolve this. Better do it in one episode out of the blue."themilo504 said:
Ill just say it: I loved Mall Rats, Dogma, Jay Silent Bob strike back and Clerks 2. I still don't see what Movie Bob doesn't like about Silent Bob. He's basically saying other people don't like Smith, i.e. critics, but we're supposed to accept that as his personal reason for not liking Smith.
Seems kinda...lazy.
What is it about Smith you don't like Bob?! You're just showing us OTHER people don't like Smith!
Seems kinda...lazy.
What is it about Smith you don't like Bob?! You're just showing us OTHER people don't like Smith!
I think you are closer to the mark than even Bob might find comfortable. Just look at Kevin Smith and then look at Bob. Bob's disapointment in what Smith has become is really not that normal. But Smith does seem to be very very much like Bob. Similar Northeast background and upbringing. Similar senses of humor. Similar size. So much so that Bob probably for many years projected himself and his own dreams and hopes into Smith. Smith's presence and success told Bob that yes there was a place for him and others like him in the dream factory. "The chubby nerd WILL inherit it all in the end." Kevin Smith himself, not so much his movies became an element of Bob's dreams. And this sort of thing cannot last. hence we get three weeks of introspection and catharsis as Bob finally comes to terms with Kevin Smith.bobdole1979 said:
Honestly as someone looking at Smith's films from the other end (I am technically from the first few years of what is considered Generation X, so got to watch this sort of 90's thing gestate from a more objective viewpoint) Smith's output is about the same and about as consistent as most other Hollywood darlings. if anything he fares a bit better overall. he is at his best doing raunchy talky slacker sex comedies. Clerks, Mallrats, etc. He has done some interesting stuff, ie Dogma. And much of his newer stuff is still hilarious. Crude as it may be Zack and Miri Make a Porno is still one of the funniest movies I have ever watched. He is good at making us mostly laugh and occasionally think a little bit. But not to hard and not to deep. His foray's into action and horror have been abysmal. But he certainly isn't M Night Shamalamadingdong. You can generally tell when you will have a good Kevin Smith movie or a bad one just by watching the trailer. I don't think anyone would question whether or not Mel Brooks is a good director. But on the same token I don't think anyone was proclaiming him the voice of a generation or expecting him to film Hamlet? At the end of the day Smith makes good typically competent funny movies. He isn't Stanley Kubrick or Francis Ford Coppola. He certainly seems to make a decent living doing what he does, and seems to be not just a decent film maker but a pretty decent businessman as well. Good for him. (yeah, that whole 'Askewverse groing past the movies to the point where Smith has to service it more than movies? That's called branding and merchandise. It may not be art, but it can when done well pay for art. You know like it did with Empire Strikes back in a previous generation of youthful outsider filmakers.)
I think the failure of Mallrats can be summed up in the scene where a character imitates Wolverine- and then another character helpfully explains who Wolverine is.
It wasn't that it was Clerks again, or that it had more money; it was that it clearly had some square in a suit leaning over Smith's shoulder nudging things to be what they thought was more mainstream-accessible- and thus, to a good degree, missing the point.
It wasn't that it was Clerks again, or that it had more money; it was that it clearly had some square in a suit leaning over Smith's shoulder nudging things to be what they thought was more mainstream-accessible- and thus, to a good degree, missing the point.
I was ready for Bob to savage Mallrats, and for me to leap to its defense, because I enjoyed it immensely (even though I realize it's goofy/kind of throwaway).
But he liked it.
Huh...
Now I don't really have anything to add to this analysis.
Wait wait! Actually, I also actually enjoyed Chasing Amy. So... That's all I got.
But he liked it.
Huh...
Now I don't really have anything to add to this analysis.
Wait wait! Actually, I also actually enjoyed Chasing Amy. So... That's all I got.
I remember Bob savaging Red State. I'll have to look for what other Smith movies Bob reviewed (and most likely eviscerated). The first Smith movie I saw in theaters was Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back, and it was in that one that it dawned on me that the previous movies are connected in their own continuity, by way of Jay & Silent Bob. I haven't seen every movie he did, but I understand he has a few stinkers, which Bob should elaborate on next week.Evonisia said: