The Big Picture: The Fall of Kevin Smith, Part II
- Thread starter MovieBob
- Start date
I came here to find out why bob hates Dogma. He doesn't huh. I guess you guys really got too hopeful and where really let down. I know how that feels, I played arkham orgins. I'm sorry bob.
Ah, these movies made such a big part of my youth. I remember when J&SB first came out and how insane it was... That said, I'm surprised you didn't touch on Clerks: The Animated Series, considering that came before J&SB and man, if there was ever a gem cut down too soon, it was Clerks the cartoon.
But next week, Clerks II! And I can see where this is heading, because Bob's thoughts on Clerks II probably matches up with the thoughts of the rest of us when it comes to Clerks II.
But next week, Clerks II! And I can see where this is heading, because Bob's thoughts on Clerks II probably matches up with the thoughts of the rest of us when it comes to Clerks II.
The fact is the audience was satisfied in the beginning with clerks because the film depended on jay mewes to be raw, realistic and part of a generation of multidimensional, troubled, sexual, tortured, rough and talented people. The other characters didn't compare to the jay character in clerks.
The chasing Amy, dogma, clerks 2 and j&sbsb characters and main characters had little in common with the realistic loveable jay and silent bob of clerks, and the humor looked very forced. Jay in clerks 2 became a gay pansy character that kevin enjoyed seeing on screen. Jay character was nowhere similar to the clerks character but he was a sick, bloated, more childish jerk in j&sbsb. In clerks 2,
Jay was just another character in a film that had too many characters. Jay was suddenly a religious freak who talked seriously about drug rehab and clowned too much about his so-called positive friendship with silent bob and had too many uninteresting awkwardly written dialogue lines, and silent bob rarely said anything.
It was bizarre how there were clerks 2 prison scenes, and the real jay mewes snuck outside a coffee shop to buy heroine/cocaine. Neither kevin nor jay mewes understand that kevin smith confused jay with mixed messages, enabled his alcohol/drug abuse and that jay clung onto kevin for a better life, but his potential for many great tv/film roles ended and that his life was hanging on by a thread after the alcohol/drug relapses during 2005-2010. Despite this, no one forgets jay mewes, the man, whether or not they don't forgive kevin smith for being hungry for praise and money instead of showing tough love for the troubled real life jay and his destructive drug using friends/family.
The chasing Amy, dogma, clerks 2 and j&sbsb characters and main characters had little in common with the realistic loveable jay and silent bob of clerks, and the humor looked very forced. Jay in clerks 2 became a gay pansy character that kevin enjoyed seeing on screen. Jay character was nowhere similar to the clerks character but he was a sick, bloated, more childish jerk in j&sbsb. In clerks 2,
Jay was just another character in a film that had too many characters. Jay was suddenly a religious freak who talked seriously about drug rehab and clowned too much about his so-called positive friendship with silent bob and had too many uninteresting awkwardly written dialogue lines, and silent bob rarely said anything.
It was bizarre how there were clerks 2 prison scenes, and the real jay mewes snuck outside a coffee shop to buy heroine/cocaine. Neither kevin nor jay mewes understand that kevin smith confused jay with mixed messages, enabled his alcohol/drug abuse and that jay clung onto kevin for a better life, but his potential for many great tv/film roles ended and that his life was hanging on by a thread after the alcohol/drug relapses during 2005-2010. Despite this, no one forgets jay mewes, the man, whether or not they don't forgive kevin smith for being hungry for praise and money instead of showing tough love for the troubled real life jay and his destructive drug using friends/family.
It's more that Clerks 2 was the only redeeming thing Smith had done since Jay and Silent Bob Strike back. JSBSB was goofy and stupid, but alright, and around the same time were the bizarre and yet awesome Clerks cartoons. Then we got Jersey Girl, Zack and Miri Make a Porno, Cop Out, and Red State, all pretty substandard or flat out not good movies. And now we're getting Clerks 3, ugh.schwegburt said:
Well, yeah. But he hasn't actually said anything meaningful in the first two parts, so why bother with them? Why not just get to whatever the hell he's trying to say?Shjade said:
What he has said in these two episodes also doesn't ring true. I lived through this time, and these movies, and I don't recall anybody considering Kevin Smith "the chosen one" or the voice of a generation or whatever.
Man. I can't help but notice the irony in all the points where you spoke of critics who declared Mallrats a failure simply because they didn't represent their own self-projections on Smith's career.
I've never had any problems with him because I never saw him as a champion for a new era of geek-culture, dialogue-driven art house indie... yes, I enjoyed his movie, and I was disappointed with what will inevitably be covered in Part 3, but even though I was a teenager when his career started, even I was able to recognize from the shift in tone between Clerks, Mallrats, and Chasing Amy--and especially Dogma--to realize that Smith wasn't some prodigy set to change the face of cinema; he was a gifted storyteller who likes trying new things. He was what I imagine I would be in a similar situation: He just wanted to try new things, explore new genres... take all the types of media he's been exposed to over his life, and take a crack at doing it himself. Rom-com. Horror. Cartoon. Drama. Action. Whatever the hell Cop-Out was.
Did it always work? No. Does he give a crap? No. (As you mentioned in this, he paid a lot of heed to critics early in his career, and at a certain point he just said "Who the hell are these guys to tell me who I should be?")
I agree with you on most things, but I've just gotta throw in my two bits on this one: Maybe the problem isn't Kevin Smith being the antichrist. Maybe the problem isn't with Kevin Smith at all.
Expectations can be a terrible thing.
I've never had any problems with him because I never saw him as a champion for a new era of geek-culture, dialogue-driven art house indie... yes, I enjoyed his movie, and I was disappointed with what will inevitably be covered in Part 3, but even though I was a teenager when his career started, even I was able to recognize from the shift in tone between Clerks, Mallrats, and Chasing Amy--and especially Dogma--to realize that Smith wasn't some prodigy set to change the face of cinema; he was a gifted storyteller who likes trying new things. He was what I imagine I would be in a similar situation: He just wanted to try new things, explore new genres... take all the types of media he's been exposed to over his life, and take a crack at doing it himself. Rom-com. Horror. Cartoon. Drama. Action. Whatever the hell Cop-Out was.
Did it always work? No. Does he give a crap? No. (As you mentioned in this, he paid a lot of heed to critics early in his career, and at a certain point he just said "Who the hell are these guys to tell me who I should be?")
I agree with you on most things, but I've just gotta throw in my two bits on this one: Maybe the problem isn't Kevin Smith being the antichrist. Maybe the problem isn't with Kevin Smith at all.
Expectations can be a terrible thing.
Well I'm happy. I was worried he was gonna pick on Dogma, which I love to bits. If he wants to take issue with Smith's later work that's cool, just don't mess with Dogma.
I don't either, but I also was about 10 years old at the time and never paid attention to Hollywood or "the scene" or whatever you want to call it. I've never known what anyone thinks is the voice of a generation. I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt (as I have few other explanations for why Kevin Smith has the fanbase he does).Aardvaarkman said:
That aside: why is he bothering with this? For context. If he just started with "this is what I think of Kevin Smith" without giving it proper context, people would blow up at him. Like they did two weeks ago. (And like they will anyway, because People.)
I think Chasing Amy is kind of changed for viewing now that bisexuals are a more clearly accepted thing.
The similarities between the two are stunning. Bob's movie career never took off, while Kevin Smith is celebrated more than he arguably deserves. This retrospective has currently been nicely restrained and explanatory, but usually when Bob mentions Smith it's a snide and unnecessarily petty way.Gerardo Vazquez said:
Taking things personally? I'm not taking them personally, it's just frustrating that a commentator that I generally respect throws such nonsense about.Shjade said:
The whole Kevin Smith thing feels strongly like Bob being contrary for the sake of it. People irrationally hate Michael Bay? Bob goes out of his way to defend him. People still love Kevin Smith after years of inactivity? Bob hates him, makes shitty comments at every opportunity. Fact is that most of Kevin Smith's films have been massively appreciated by audiences and "nerd critics", so Bob's going against the grain for whatever personal reason he might have.
It's one thing not to like a Director/Writer, it's another to have some kind of ridiculous grudge against him.
No, that's the point. He aspired to one, has posted treatments of films he wanted to write on here, and has incorporated his love of writing and directing things into his "Game Overthinker" series. However, like so many others, he never got a job in the industry.Trooper924 said:
In the unlikely event that he's reading this, I just want to clarify - I watch everything he releases, when he releases it. I like his work, even when I disagree with his opinions, and I look forward to Tuesdays and Fridays on this site. I think he does a fantastic job of what he does, and I'm far from a Bob-basher. I'm just suspicious that his dislike of Smith is more personal than professional, and not in an endearing way.
Bob's just pissed because Kevin believe film critics are irrelevant. Which, by the way, they are.
What inactivity? He's built a podcast network, made a movie and he's got two more coming down the pipe. I'm excited for TUSK!Verlander said:
He's a film director that hasn't had a release since 2011, and hasn't made a well received film since 2008. He could be busy feeding the starving for all I know, but we're talking about a film director making films.SaneAmongInsane said:
I'm not overly bothered by Tusk, not a huge horror fan, but I'll be happy to see Clerks 3 and that apocalypse comedy he's doing.
Well, call me overly idealistic, but I don't believe that Bob-or anyone else for that matter-could be that utterly childish.Verlander said: