The Big Picture: The New Green

Quiet Stranger

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I would actually like to hear Bob's opinion on why the New 52 is "underwhelming" I've only been reading the Green and Red lantern single issues lately, everything I've found out about the New 52 just makes me want to not touch any of the rest (well the main ones anyways, like JLA and JSA and all the main super heroes we know) I mean I guess I'd touch the lesser known ones like Frankenstein Agent of SHADE AND JLA Dark JUST because of John Constantine (although is the John in JLA Dark the Hellblazer John or the original DC 1980s John?)


I hope someone reads this and gives me an answer. Also if anyone could recommend some of the New 52 that'd be great because like I've said, I've only been reading Green Lantern stuff and Red Lantern also I heard The Flash had a hand in merging, WildStorm, Vertigo, and the DC universes together, in what comic book arc did that happen? I really need to catch up, still haven't read Flashpoint.

EDIT: Also for on topic, I'm glad it's NOT the Allen Scott I know and love who's gay (not that there's anything wrong with it but I love the kick ass old man version)
 

ReiverCorrupter

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MovieBob said:
MovieBob gives you another reason as to why comics are weird.
I think MovieBob has given us another reason as to why comic books are of little cultural relevance.

There are a couple ways to look at this:

1) The General Impact View: the good thing about it is that it portrays a (relatively) iconic character as gay, which promotes a positive, inclusive image that will make homosexual people feel less like a social outlier and more like an accepted member of society.

Sure, I get it. The problem is that this is probably a pretty weak general impact. The impact could have been much larger if DC were willing to step up to the plate and write something truly controversial. Instead they chose to play it safe and add a token gay character without directly confronting the issues that face gay people in modern society. This brings me to #2...

2) The Artistic View: when you consider it from the motivations of DC it just seems like a really shallow attempt to appease certain demographics and receive praise. While I can see one appeal for treating homosexuality like it's no big deal, the problem with this is that it kind of is. There is still a huge cultural and political divide over what rights gay people should have, as well as the nature of romantic and family relationships. If DC was really courageous they would tackle these issues head on with stories like the one about the original Scott having to accept his son.

This ties into the very nature of comics as an artistic medium. The greatest forms of art and literature don't just follow cultural trends with marketing ploys; they lead and help create new cultural trends. The only way to do this is to be original and to not be afraid to shock people. The way to do this isn't to have token gay characters or have a gay wedding: it's to actually generate a discussion between the two sides of the issues and then point to a solution.

Appeasing a primarily liberal audience doesn't do anything. In fact, it's indicative of the polarization that is destroying our country (America). The proliferation of partisan media outlets is the foremost cause of this degeneration. When each side is only exposed to media sources that espouse their own values while caricaturing the other side, it's no wonder that we've become ever more polarized.

If DC was truly bold they would create a character that had anti-gay biases but that was still human and relatable. Someone's whose biases are based in deeply held religious or cultural beliefs. Someone who could represent the portion of society that opposes homosexuality without becoming a straw-man. Maybe then this character could have a sincere conflict between his/her deeply held traditional values and the need to recognize the rights of his gay counterparts. Perhaps in the end the character realizes that the broader societal context of the situation demands that he/she recognize and accept his/her gay counterparts, even though this conflicts with his/her religious/cultural convictions.

The fact that DC doesn't seem willing to engage in this kind of story writing shows an immaturity on their part. What made The Watchmen so good, imo, is that it had an at least somewhat morally ambiguous ending. Rorschach's position was (once again imho) supposed to be somewhat identifiable. You had a genuine conflict between deontological and utilitarian ethics. I think it was left up to the reader who to side with. Handing down mores to an audience that likely already agrees with you isn't going to raise what you're doing above the level of mere entertainment.
 

ReiverCorrupter

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Taunta said:
Sovereignty said:
Whenever you try and pop in these attempts at sounding like you're sincerely behind the idea of everything being equal...

You just come off sounding guilty of prejudice. It's part of the problem with changing heroes genders/sexualities/races/etc. When you alter something because you think a group of people you can't relate to (usually of a different sex/gender/race) dislike the way it is, you're simply trying to appease your white guilt.

These communities don't neccesarily want us to change established things to include them. As that would just perpetuate the cycle of inequality (you don't restore balance by turning every superhero black for instance.)

They want genuine attempts at new icons that are more deverse. Not one dimensional stereotypes like we have now.

I really think for all the good Bob tries to do with these equality pieces in comics/games/movies, his position will never come off right. Truth is, what would he know about inequality or prejudice?
I don't understand your train of logic. Under that idea, no white person can support equality because it's going to be brushed off as "guilt" on the sole basis of his or her race. Is that not inequal or prejudiced in itself?

Also, Alan Scott is not a one-dimensional stereotype. From what I've seen, it looks like they did a pretty respectful job, and there are plenty of minorities in comics that are not stereotypes. I'm unsure what you're referring to specifically.
Not sure I agree with/understand the OP's line of thought either. However, I will say that the argument that Bob gives at the very end about not having a problem with people "trying too hard to make up for lost time" does seem to suggest the whole white guilt thing, to me at least. It's kind of the same sentiment (albeit taken to a rather idiotic extreme) that makes someone claim that women should run society for the next 6000 years just to make up for lost time.

It's the same kind of general feeling behind more radical versions of affirmative action in which less qualified candidates are given a position due to their ethnic/cultural background/sexual orientation, etc. Giving academic/professional positions to less qualified people is 1) generally unfair to the more qualified people who worked hard to get where they were, 2) is a very imperfect way to make up for the results of inequalities at the level of primary education and upbringing (i.e., the real way to combat these inequalities is to stop them at the source with a better funded education system), and 3) two wrongs don't make a right.

I suppose one could argue that the more qualified candidates were only able to get their qualifications because of their position in society, and that these qualifications shouldn't really count. But while that may be true of some (e.g. the rich kids at Yale), I think that other factors such as ethnicity/sexual orientation don't influence success nearly as much as wealth, and that just because someone is white/male/etc. it doesn't mean that they didn't work their ass off to get to where they are.

The only time I feel it's alright to take a less qualified candidate is when there's substantial evidence to suggest that that candidate has more raw potential and would thus be a better investment in the long run (e.g. they score off the charts on an IQ test), or if the less qualified candidate can show material/quantifiable evidence that they were at a disadvantage (e.g. their family had such a low income that they had to spend much of their time working, which directly affected their ability to study, etc.). Unfortunately, most of it seems to be done for both ideological reasons and for bragging rights (e.g. UC Davis' faculty is more diverse than UCSB so UCSB hires a new faculty member for the sake of being more diverse, even though that faculty member specializes in something that overlaps with the work of existing members).

At any rate, I'm not going to beleaguer the point because it always seems self-serving for white/male/heterosexual people to argue that it's another form of prejudice or that society's supposed to be a meritocracy.

But I will say that Bob's comment does come off as a bit self-righteous/self-promoting, and that we should be suspicious of the "making up for lost time" arguments.
 

thisbymaster

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This NOTHING to do with Gay rights or meaningless affirmative action. It has everything to do with flagging sales and trying to gain attention by jumping on a bandwagon. If the bandwagon for this decade was putting furniture through your head, you could bet your ass that some random super hero would look like Chairface.
 

Blueruler182

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First, I'd like to point out that I know more gay men in comics than women. Second, X-Factor did make an established character gay, Rictor, so DC's not exacty the only person in this ball park.

Third, the thing that annoys me about this announcement is that they played it up as an important character was going to come out. Instead they make it a character that nobody gives two shits about in an alternate universe. The character was already going to come out, but he didn't deserve the press for it. This is nothing new.
 

DaHero

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Alright, so they made a gay green lantern, where's the Christian Superman to balance it out?

In all seriousness, every time the LGBWTH/E, one million in their mind moms, or other big political group lets their ego flare out, I think back to PETA and their shenanigans. There's no difference, just people too busy trying to control someone else. Nobody is really fighting for their rights here, just trying to enforce what they want on others.

Seriously, LGBs just want everyone to be what they want, OMM wants everyone to keep to tradition, there's nothing new here.

DC made a gay green lantern? Whoop de homo do, back to life people, buy it if you want to.
 

otakunick

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completly off topic to this vid but rely relavent to your intrests have you herd of mars one yet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QoEEGySGm4&feature=player_embedded
 

McMarbles

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For an "obscure" character, Alan Scott's appeared a LOT in the last couple of decades.

Almost monthly for the last ten years prior tio the reboot, in the pages of JSA, as a matter of fact.

Just putting that out there.
 

Tarkand

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Vortigar said:
Personally I'd say the whole 2 earths so they can have a different version of established characters to mess around with is a pretty good idea. It's just that DC can't help but do it in the most convoluted way possible.
DVS BSTrD said:
As long as it wasn't Aquaman.

Ghah! Established canon? That's no way to appeal to the youth! Make everything new and 'hip' and make Power Girl's boobs bigger while you're at it. Hell, MAKE ALL THEIR BOOBS BIGGER!
Apparently Aquaman is pretty cool in the New 52. Also Wonder Woman is a good book for the first time in 20 years or so. What the hell is going on here?

PG's boobs have actually shrunk (and are covered up nowadays).

I rather like PG myself, she realizes people notice the rack so she just makes it into her thing. Basically every superheroine has this amazing body that is never really talked about in the comics themselves. Power Girl and Empowered are almost the only characters where they address this, making them more mature (in a way) than the ones screaming that it's pandering. Of course that's still going on, but that counts for basically every superhero comic out there.

tldr:
Buy Batwoman.
^_^

ps. A man, over 1000 posts, I've gone gonzo... I loved the pulitzer laureate tag...
I have to agree here.

It's kinda odd that a character like Cersei Lanister in A song of ice and fire is considered a good character (Nobody likes her, she's evil, and yadda yadda... but she is well written and realistic) when what she basically do is use her beauty and sexuality as her main weapon.

Yet have someone like PG around and all of a sudden it's pandering? Girls that look like the comic book super hero are usually movie stars or models and like it or not, their look is a big part of their life and the way society react to them and perceive them.

Which is kinda funny when you think about it - Martin's work is a lot more 'graphic' than any mainstream comic book ever will be... I guess it's all about the medium.

I don't know that the real problem is that character like PG panders... as much as comic book artists are unable to draw a female character that doesn't look like the most beautiful women in the world... and then the writers write entire world that totally ignore the super hot babe walking around in a costume that barely hide anything and leave nothing to the imagination.
 

SpaceMedarotterX

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I don't particularly care that Alan is gay. Only that ya know it's not Alan Scott in any way, shape, or form. But this registers right up there on the scale of Kyle Rayner being Latino. I.E. You'll probably never remember it after a few years.

Or worst comes to worst, it will be exactly like Terry Berg all fucking over again, and Alan Scott will abandon earth because his boyfriend got beat up. I'm not joking by the way.

Hey DC, do me a favor and make Kyle Rayners backstory make sense again, because with Donna Troy and Jade now existing in Limbo, his backstory beyond "Girlfriend died, shit sucks, became God a couple of times, was pretty cool" doesn't actually begin to make sense.
 

GiantRaven

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DutchAssassin8 said:
And not a single mention of the fact that this was all planned to compete with the first superhero-gay-marriage by Marvel.
Earth-2 was planned, and would have been written, months in advance of Marvel's announcement of this.

Quiet Stranger said:
I hope someone reads this and gives me an answer. Also if anyone could recommend some of the New 52 that'd be great because like I've said, I've only been reading Green Lantern stuff and Red Lantern also I heard The Flash had a hand in merging, WildStorm, Vertigo, and the DC universes together, in what comic book arc did that happen? I really need to catch up, still haven't read Flashpoint.
I really don't know where Bob is getting 'underwhelming' from considering the quality of the books I read.

A list of what I think are the New 52's best books:

The best:
Animal Man
Swamp Thing
Frankenstein: Agent of Shade
I, Vampire
Demon Knights

Also really good:
Justice League Dark
Resurrection Man
Batman
Batwoman
Nightwing
Wonder Woman
Aquaman
The Flash

Books I haven't read but are supposed to be good:
OMAC (cancelled now)
Voodoo
All-Star Western
Birds of Prey
Batwing
Supergirl

That's almost half of DC's main comic output that is seemingly of passing quality (I can't say for certain about the books I haven't read but reading peoples comments on them make them sound interesting). I don't see how 'underwhelming' is a description that could even be considered.

McMarbles said:
For an "obscure" character, Alan Scott's appeared a LOT in the last couple of decades.

Almost monthly for the last ten years prior tio the reboot, in the pages of JSA, as a matter of fact.

Just putting that out there.
Yeah, being a main character in one of DC's biggest team books of recent times somewhat helps to shake the moniker of 'obscure'. Alan Scott is far from obscure is the comic book world. He isn't just the long-forgotten original Green Lantern that conflicts with the more modern version, he's an interesting character and concept in his own right. Describing him as a 'fake' Green Lantern or whatever is a disservice to the character.
 
Aug 1, 2010
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Kinshar said:
MrDeckard said:
Good episode.

More or less my same thoughts on the matter.

Though I have to ask. LGBT..... Q? The hell is "Q"? Quadsexual? Quasarsexual?
Queer which is a umbrella term for the preceding LGBT.
I am very confused.

Isn't Queer a very derogatory term? Or has the meaning of the word changed again?

Even if it isn't, how does it refer to Transsexuals and Bisexuals? Isn't it a term for Homosexuals?

And if it DOES work, why say LGBTQ if the Q just means LGBT???

If it ISN'T considered redundant, why isn't it in the title more often?!?!?

I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT'S GOING ON.
 

The Thinker

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Morbira said:
If I may interject on something a little non-sequitur... Am I the only one who really hates the term "LGBT"? I mean if you spell it out it sounds atrocious and cumbersome ("algae-beaty"), and if you try to physically pronounce it you sound like a drooling invalid. Just a pet peeve...
And thus the term QUILTBAG was invented, by someone other than me:

Queer/Questioning, Undecided, Intersex, Lesbian, Trans, Bisexual, Asexual, Gay.

Pros: Humorous, Humorously Quicker to Say than LGBT (humorous, as it contains more components), All-Encompassing(ish), Everyone Knows How to Pronounce It.

Cons: Not Yet Universally Accepted, Sounds F**king Silly.

I'll leave the decision of which acronym to use to you.
 

joshuaayt

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Nov 15, 2009
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Why doesn't anyone care about alternate realities? Marvel's been cranking out consistently high quality alternate reality stories for years- I still maintain that Ultimate Spider-man was in every way more interesting than 616 Spider-man.

Anyway. Props for the gay character. Incidentally "Buff dude who acts like a beefsteak and is also gay" was done with Colossus and Northstar, and it was pretty awesome. Y'all should read that too.
 

Paradoxrifts

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I'm waiting for the rule 34# between Alan Scott and Obsidian, with a speech bubble that reads, "Your not my son anymore, so this is totally not gay incest."