The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

[Lilani]

This was not an analysis of the portrayal of MovieBob in media. I am deeply disappointed.

Also, once again, the "no one designs male characters to appeal to women" argument does not apply to Japan. You know, the place where like half the world's games (and certainly the world's most sexual games) get made? Yeah, they design male game characters to appeal to women, just like they do in their comic books (ever since they started doing reader surveys in the early 90s), just like they do in their cartoons, just like they do in their live action television (you know those rubber-suit superhero shows they make for eight year old boys? The men they cast in those are chosen to appeal to women now. It stops mothers from changing the channel). No, not every male character in a Japanese game is designed that way or for that reason and yes, the games built around identifying with a female protagonist and ogling hot guys basically never get localized. It sucks, I know, but can we please get past this outdated eurocentrism? All it takes is a few words to qualify that you're only talking about your own culture, not everyone else's, and that's especially important when your made-up game title is clearly not something that would be made in Europe or America.

Since he clearly outlined what specific parts of the games are problems, it's safe to assume games that do not have those problems are excluded from criticism.

No, he specifically stated, in his final argument, that the unrealistic portrayal of women in games and other media is problem, while the unrealistic portrayal of men is not, because both are primarily designed to appeal to men. I responded that I am currently living in a nation which produces a significant portion of the world's games in which this is untrue. He is not required to address this situation, but it is his responsibility to acknowledge the existence of circumstances differing from those he describes and the limited scope of his own observations.

In a multicultural industry like this one it is lazy and insulting to present anglosphere tropes as if they are universally applicable. It is an intellectual legacy of the modernist culture of imperialism and Movie Bob, who has devoted an episode to such things in the past, should do a better job qualifying his statements. His own inability to speak Japanese or lack of personal experience with the popular culture of Japan are no excuse.

Japan isn't totally innocent, you know. Ivy from Soul Calibur is always brought up in these sorts of discussions, and both she and her games are the products of Capcom. And she is rightly used as an example, because there is absolutely no reason for her to be dressed like that. It is not explained by her character or her storyline. The only reason she's like that is for gratuitous oogling.

This is about a problem, not about regions. I'm aware there is a bit of a problem with gamers assuming their region is the only one that exists, hell that is a problem with every form of media and sector of life. But if you're going to claim a region is totally innocent of criticisms which might be inadvertently thrown its way, the first thing you have to do is be correct. Which in this case, I'm afraid you aren't.

 

[Busdriver580]

I'm honestly surprised Bob did what amounts to a promotional for this series. No reasonable person will deny that games tend to be overwhelmingly sexist, and nobody who thinks they aren't is going to be tuned in. Frankly, I see the whole thing as a huge scam. It would be one thing if she was focusing an entire series on hypothetical ways to improve the situation, or maybe how consumers can affect a positive change away from sexism, but as is shes getting paid to tell us that sexism in games EXISTS. It's frankly disgusting that someone would ask for money to essentially complain about a well known and documented fact. That doesn't help at all, and its lazy. For sake of example, you see PSAs about how to avoid causing forest fires but you would never see a PSA explaining that forest fires are a thing.

Furthermore, between Bob ignoring all the reasonable criticism and the recent article, id say that the escapist has some kind of interest in supporting this project and im very disappointed.

 

[Timnoldzim]

Wait, 12? Damn it! Did Big Boobed Panty Ninja 11 come out already? God, I always miss launch news these days!

 

[A Weary Exile]

*Snip*

I like how she's supposed to be pointing out hypocrisy in gender relations, but then the videos in the side bar are titled "What liquor ads teach us about men." and "The real reason guys should hate Twilight." like there's some sort of dudebro hive-mind that we're all a part of.

 

[theultimateend]

Japan isn't totally innocent, you know. Ivy from Soul Calibur is always brought up in these sorts of discussions, and both she and her games are the products of Capcom. And she is rightly used as an example, because there is absolutely no reason for her to be dressed like that. It is not explained by her character or her storyline. The only reason she's like that is for gratuitous oogling.

This is about a problem, not about regions. I'm aware there is a bit of a problem with gamers assuming their region is the only one that exists, hell that is a problem with every form of media and sector of life. But if you're going to claim a region is totally innocent of criticisms which might be inadvertently thrown its way, the first thing you have to do is be correct. Which in this case, I'm afraid you aren't.

I would like game developers to just make a "scanty armor" and a "regular armor" set for every character. Then track the data for what is used more.

Not that it means we should stick with what is used more, I'd just be curious if this is the market meeting a need or responding to a need that doesn't actually exist.

It would also bring choice into the matter. I'm sure with character editors the way they are we could add in modifiers so people could make everyone a B Cup in a suit with average complexion etc etc.

I will note as a kid I used IVY because her sword is obscenely strong. But who did I use more than her?

Spoiler: This Guy

*Snip*

I like how she's supposed to be pointing out hypocrisy in gender relations, but then the videos in the side bar are titled "What liquor ads teach us about men." and "The real reason guys should hate Twilight." like there's some sort of dudebro hive-mind that we're all a part of.

Bob suggested nothing short of that by saying the male thing is cool because its what all men are deigning to be.

So I guess she's innocent in that respect .

 

[Elate]

*Snip*

I like how she's supposed to be pointing out hypocrisy in gender relations, but then the videos in the side bar are titled "What liquor ads teach us about men." and "The real reason guys should hate Twilight." like there's some sort of dudebro hive-mind that we're all a part of.

It's also funny how half the adverts make the men also look like morons and such, but she doesn't even pick up on that in the slightest, yet it is still blatant sexism.

But yo bro, didn't you like totes hear me telling you that through the broverlord?

 

[Lilani]

*Snip*

I like how she's supposed to be pointing out hypocrisy in gender relations, but then the videos in the side bar are titled "What liquor ads teach us about men." and "The real reason guys should hate Twilight." like there's some sort of dudebro hive-mind that we're all a part of.

I think you might be surprised. I don't know which one, but I specifically remember there was an episode of Big Picture where he said something like "Guys, if we get to have Ivy from Soul Calibur, we can't complain about girls getting the werewolves in Twilight. Fair is fair. If we get to have our big breasted ladies dressed like they're in an S&M club, they get to have their werewolves dressed like guys from Chippendale's. Fair is fair." Because apparently enough guys were complaining about how sexualized the guys from Twilight are, he caught wind of it and felt compelled to mention it.

I know not all guys are like that, and I'm pretty sure he's aware of that too (though admittedly Bob tends to be very anti-dudebro). But it's still interesting to see. Sex sells, and all that.

 

[Machine Man 1992]

I still face-palm when I hear talk about the whole And yes before anyone goes "oh but there are much bigger problems with this controversy," I know. But if she can complain about something like Legos when there are huge human rights violations in the world in regards to females, I can complain about parts of her nonsense.

If we can't fix sexism here how can we hope to fix it elsewhere. Your argument doesn't hold up. There are millions starving in other countries so I shouldn't give money to the local food bank?

I never understand why so many people use the doctrine of relative filth. Maybe because it's easier than trying to fix the problems. It's worse somewhere else so why should I bother fixing something not as bad but closer to home.

I think what Rednog was trying to say was that with all the fuckloads of money she raked in, she'd have relatively more constructive and relevant things to say, because seriously? Complaining about motherfucking LEGOS? What is this I don't even.

Yes, the revolution starts at home, but with all that money, one would think that she'd put it to good use for things other than bitching about the fact that games are geared towards 15-25 year old heterosexual males, who are the core consumers of video games.

 

[theultimateend]

It would also bring choice into the matter. I'm sure with character editors the way they are we could add in modifiers so people could make everyone a B Cup in a suit with average complexion etc etc.

I will note as a kid I used IVY because her sword is obscenely strong. But who did I use more than her?

Spoiler: This Guy

You son of a *****! Well, at least you didn't use Raphael. Gotta say I personally like to play Kilik and Maxi. Loved their backstory and their own relation to Soul Calibur and of course I'm a sucker for nunchucks and staves.

I'm actually a pretty big fan of Soul Calibur. Which is why I usually get bummed out when people can't get past the character models.

I'm no expert in how to fix the issue of women being abused in the business place. I still really REALLY want there to be a complete gender shift so I can be expected to work at home and women get the better pay and benefits at work.

I've done the housewife life, I loved it. I'm actually pretty bummed that the cost of living in California requires my Wife and I to both work. I'd eat up the housework, I'm a sucker for a vacuum (heh).

But I digress. Voldo is absolutely fantastic. I can't stand Maxi (I don't know why I win when I do win with him) but yes, Kilik is awesome sauce.

Wow...this post really took a weird ass detour before it came back to my original point...

 

[Twinmill5000]

You know what, Bob, you know what?

I actually... agree with you on this one.

That's coming from someone whose character in Tera is a female Castanic warrior that looks like this:
http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/9403/terascreen.png



You know why I agree with you? Because Anita never said the games where, say my character from Tera make an appearance, shouldn't exist, but that there should be more variety.

This is good.

That's all I really have to say. If you want, I can dig up my comment I posted in support of her Kickstarter, in hopes that she'd actually read it. Now, what I should have done was posted that same comment when I actually backed her project, but still.

 

[A Weary Exile]

*Snip*

I like how she's supposed to be pointing out hypocrisy in gender relations, but then the videos in the side bar are titled "What liquor ads teach us about men." and "The real reason guys should hate Twilight." like there's some sort of dudebro hive-mind that we're all a part of.

It's also funny how half the adverts make the men also look like morons and such, but she doesn't even pick up on that in the slightest, yet it is still blatant sexism.

But yo bro, didn't you like totes hear me telling you that through the broverlord?

Nah sorry, bro. I was too busy working on my vintage muscle car while lifting weights and making cat-calls at passing women. Now give me your bropardons while I take my leave and go perpetuate the patriarchy by looking at massive boobies on my favorite porno sites. *Brofist*

Captcha: In the limelight. woo, Rush.

 

[Machine Man 1992]

*Snip*

I like how she's supposed to be pointing out hypocrisy in gender relations, but then the videos in the side bar are titled "What liquor ads teach us about men." and "The real reason guys should hate Twilight." like there's some sort of dudebro hive-mind that we're all a part of.

It's also funny how half the adverts make the men also look like morons and such, but she doesn't even pick up on that in the slightest, yet it is still blatant sexism.

But yo bro, didn't you like totes hear me telling you that through the broverlord?

Nah sorry, bro. I was too busy working on my vintage muscle car while lifting weights and making cat-calls at passing women. Now give me your bropardons while I take my leave and go perpetuate the patriarchy by looking at massive boobies on my favorite porno sites. *Brofist*

Captcha: In the limelight. woo, Rush.

Actually, owning a muscle car and having the testicular fortitude to make cat-calls at passerby is one of my fantasies...

 

[OtherSideofSky]

This was not an analysis of the portrayal of MovieBob in media. I am deeply disappointed.

Also, once again, the "no one designs male characters to appeal to women" argument does not apply to Japan. You know, the place where like half the world's games (and certainly the world's most sexual games) get made? Yeah, they design male game characters to appeal to women, just like they do in their comic books (ever since they started doing reader surveys in the early 90s), just like they do in their cartoons, just like they do in their live action television (you know those rubber-suit superhero shows they make for eight year old boys? The men they cast in those are chosen to appeal to women now. It stops mothers from changing the channel). No, not every male character in a Japanese game is designed that way or for that reason and yes, the games built around identifying with a female protagonist and ogling hot guys basically never get localized. It sucks, I know, but can we please get past this outdated eurocentrism? All it takes is a few words to qualify that you're only talking about your own culture, not everyone else's, and that's especially important when your made-up game title is clearly not something that would be made in Europe or America.

Since he clearly outlined what specific parts of the games are problems, it's safe to assume games that do not have those problems are excluded from criticism.

No, he specifically stated, in his final argument, that the unrealistic portrayal of women in games and other media is problem, while the unrealistic portrayal of men is not, because both are primarily designed to appeal to men. I responded that I am currently living in a nation which produces a significant portion of the world's games in which this is untrue. He is not required to address this situation, but it is his responsibility to acknowledge the existence of circumstances differing from those he describes and the limited scope of his own observations.

In a multicultural industry like this one it is lazy and insulting to present anglosphere tropes as if they are universally applicable. It is an intellectual legacy of the modernist culture of imperialism and Movie Bob, who has devoted an episode to such things in the past, should do a better job qualifying his statements. His own inability to speak Japanese or lack of personal experience with the popular culture of Japan are no excuse.

Japan isn't totally innocent, you know. Ivy from Soul Calibur is always brought up in these sorts of discussions, and both she and her games are the products of Capcom. And she is rightly used as an example, because there is absolutely no reason for her to be dressed like that. It is not explained by her character or her storyline. The only reason she's like that is for gratuitous oogling.

This is about a problem, not about regions. I'm aware there is a bit of a problem with gamers assuming their region is the only one that exists, hell that is a problem with every form of media and sector of life. But if you're going to claim a region is totally innocent of criticisms which might be inadvertently thrown its way, the first thing you have to do is be correct. Which in this case, I'm afraid you aren't.

I never said that Japan doesn't sexualize women or design female characters to appeal to men, I said that Japan also sexualizes men and designs male characters to appeal to women (and includes this in marketing) in precisely the way in which Movie Bob states that game developers and publishers across the board do not. That means that one of Bob's three main arguments does not apply to a region which produced a significant portion of the media he showed images of in this episode. The point I am making is that arguments of sexualization and objectification, just like all other issues, must be modified according to the environments about which they occur. I am only requesting that people making speeches acknowledge that they are making them about a particular culture or area of experience and then stick to that. In this case, all he would have to do is specify that he is referring to the English language gaming community and the publishers which service it. After all, even portrayals in Japanese games need to be re-evaluated when they are selectively translated and released in an entirely different cultural context.

 

[rabidkanid]

In a way, I actually do hope that Video Games become more and more accepted to the point that Grandma gets in on it. It forces more people to have their eyes on the medium and what it's doing. It lessens the attention on the male, and thus forces a serious focus away from this childish sexist male demographic who only thinks girls should be represented as being ditsy and unable to care for themselves, need a big man to rescue them, and/or needing to have big luscious boobs for anyone to pay attention to them.

That incident with the fighting tournament where that coach guy was yelling sexist comments at the girl gamer is indicative of where gamers in general are socially. THAT is the general mind set for a lot of people who play games than it should and is what happens when a medium is set to appeal to really only one group of people.

I hope that new Lara Croft game starts to set an new standard for respect for female characters and women in general.

 

[LadyRhian]

*Snip*

I like how she's supposed to be pointing out hypocrisy in gender relations, but then the videos in the side bar are titled "What liquor ads teach us about men." and "The real reason guys should hate Twilight." like there's some sort of dudebro hive-mind that we're all a part of.

I think you might be surprised. I don't know which one, but I specifically remember there was an episode of Big Picture where he said something like "Guys, if we get to have Ivy from Soul Calibur, we can't complain about girls getting the werewolves in Twilight. Fair is fair. If we get to have our big breasted ladies dressed like they're in an S&M club, they get to have their werewolves dressed like guys from Chippendale's. Fair is fair." Because apparently enough guys were complaining about how sexualized the guys from Twilight are, he caught wind of it and felt compelled to mention it.

I know not all guys are like that, and I'm pretty sure he's aware of that too. But it's still interesting to see. Sex sells, and all that.

I am guessing they didn't watch the "The Real Reason Guys Should Hate Twilight" Video, which was addressing comments like "Edward is so gay", 'Edward is too sensitive" or "The Vampires don't kill people or rip shit up enough". Hate him because he's a creepy, over-protective, manipulative stalker. Is that such a bad thing to say?

And liquor ads tell men it's okay to manipulate women instead of being who they really are, or you know, talking honestly with a woman. That it's okay to stare at women walking by, and that "Men never change". If a feminist said outright that men just want to stare at women and that they never change, it would be offensive. But because it's a liquor ad made by men and aimed at men, it's suddenly okay?

 

[A Weary Exile]

*Snip*

I like how she's supposed to be pointing out hypocrisy in gender relations, but then the videos in the side bar are titled "What liquor ads teach us about men." and "The real reason guys should hate Twilight." like there's some sort of dudebro hive-mind that we're all a part of.

I think you might be surprised. I don't know which one, but I specifically remember there was an episode of Big Picture where he said something like "Guys, if we get to have Ivy from Soul Calibur, we can't complain about girls getting the werewolves in Twilight. Fair is fair. If we get to have our big breasted ladies dressed like they're in an S&M club, they get to have their werewolves dressed like guys from Chippendale's. Fair is fair." Because apparently enough guys were complaining about how sexualized the guys from Twilight are, he caught wind of it and felt compelled to mention it.

I know not all guys are like that, and I'm pretty sure he's aware of that too. But it's still interesting to see. Sex sells, and all that.

But I like complaining. And I want to complain about both.

Pandering to either gender like that is just stupid and a problem that is encouraged by both genders. Did you know a lot of book stores have sections dedicated to "Paranormal Teen Romance" (probably) as a direct result of Twilight's popularity? They aren't even trying to hide the fact that they are basically building an industry based on pre-teen girl porn.

The figures of the women of Soul Calibur are just as bad as Twilight's writing for pretty much the same reason, they're just directed at different audiences. Having physically attractive characters (Realistic or no) isn't inherently a bad thing. Having characters serve the specific purpose of just being attractive to sell with sex should be reserved for porn and similar media. I would like to see this sort of thing done away with entirely in mainstream media, but I just don't like that people seem to think that the female side of the argument is the only valid position.

 

[Masterdebator]

I knew what I was getting into, but it wasn't any less disappointing.

Appreciated the complete glazing over of stereotypical male physique and a male audience reaction to it, and the avoiding of female representations that weren't Mai or Ivy, but I've learned generalizations and oversimplifications of issues are integral to Bob's arsenal by now.

Here's what I learned,

1. 4Chan = Gamers (bolster arguments/ opinions by highlighting the comments of trolls. Anita and Bob are both guilty of doing this (with Bob it's commonplace by now though)).
2. Inaccurate representations of women = wrong.
3. Inaccurate representations of men = ok.
4. Continuing to advertise a documentary that will do nothing but reiterate documented and largely known ideals = ok.
5. Never question feminist ideals towards gaming/ the clearly bias nature and singular view of the doc series = Sure why not.

The reality here is sex sells with audiences in general when it comes to hyper sexual representations of both genders in the media, and it's hardly a "male fantasy" when women buy into it and take part in the creation of material like it.

The reality again is both genders, while both accepting it in large numbers with their wallets (which is why is why hyper sexualization will continue), are critical of their physical representations in the media, hence designers responding by creating a number of characters within video games that don't follow the vilified representations of said genders.

The issue here, in my eyes, is the fallacious notion of "proper representation" in the first place, as there is no "correct" way to represent either gender (hence the complaints about large breasts or a female being put in the role of a victim go out the window, as they're about as valid as complaining about a man's toned biceps or being the hero all the time).

And no, there is no "empowerment" for male audiences to find in a male "being the hero", largely because there's no emotional connection or relatable notions to be procured from said position alone. The same applies if it were a female viewing a female "being the hero" or an overweight male relating to an overweight game character (unless you're an unbelievable shallow individual).

Furthermore, any form of female representation can be twisted into a sexist depiction on the simply virtue of being female. If there aren't any obvious physical characteristics worth demonizing, the personality will be turned to, faulting the character for being perhaps being submissive, weak, unintelligent, and having other negative or flawed characteristics (as this apparently acts as a poor representation for the entire female populace).

I go into further detail on this issue in these videos if anyone cares.

Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpssUwG-cOI&feature=plcp
Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW6qS3W37AQ&feature=channel&list=UL

 

[LadyRhian]

I still face-palm when I hear talk about the whole And yes before anyone goes "oh but there are much bigger problems with this controversy," I know. But if she can complain about something like Legos when there are huge human rights violations in the world in regards to females, I can complain about parts of her nonsense.

If we can't fix sexism here how can we hope to fix it elsewhere. Your argument doesn't hold up. There are millions starving in other countries so I shouldn't give money to the local food bank?

I never understand why so many people use the doctrine of relative filth. Maybe because it's easier than trying to fix the problems. It's worse somewhere else so why should I bother fixing something not as bad but closer to home.

I think what Rednog was trying to say was that with all the fuckloads of money she raked in, she'd have relatively more constructive and relevant things to say, because seriously? Complaining about motherfucking LEGOS? What is this I don't even.

Yes, the revolution starts at home, but with all that money, one would think that she'd put it to good use for things other than bitching about the fact that games are geared towards 15-25 year old heterosexual males, who are the core consumers of video games.

Not LEGOs, per se. LEGO advertising. Once marketed equally to boys and girls, now marketed more to boys and using language about building, where the female-oriented LEGO line is less about building or making stuff with LEGOs, but playing like Barbies with your LEGO built stuff. It's quite frankly, insulting to girls. And even the Bricks in female LEGOs are pretty much all pink and purple. Really. Watch the video. It's all in there.