The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

[Ramzal]

And honestly, if you judge any of them just for their clothing (And by you, I mean anyone) you are as judgmental and objectifying as anyone else is. I mean really, the pre-bias that someone is either lacking in intelligence or in self respect due to the clothes they are wearing is one that has got to go. I've seen it too many times when a woman is simply dressed a certain way and immediately put in "Skank" or "Whore" bin of humanity. One of the most intelligent women I know and has a 3.9 GPA wears short shorts that come to the edge of her butt because she feels comfortable in them. It's a bit of a side issue that I am stating here, however I have a really big problem when people outcry because of a lack of clothing.

I'm even confused by it. A larger majority of women at one point began to wear less clothing to oppose men who at the time demanded that women cover up more to decrease the chances of anyone looking at their wives. But now that men find it sexy or someone if comfortable expressing themselves in a fashion sense, it's degrading?

You're confusing video game characters with actual people. Women who make conscientious decisions about their bodies and what to put on them are empowered. But video game characters don't make decisions about what they wear; the people designing them do, and those people are typically men. Too much emphasis on the sexuality of female characters is degrading to womem.

That's a double standard. You are involving how women feel about created characters being shown but you cannot relate it to how normal women being dressed. You're kind of making a hole of bias that it only works one way. My point is that there are women who dress as revealing as women created in video games. Dressing yourself is part of self expression and self comfort.

Truth be told, if anything sends a message about women dressed scantily in games, it shows that the character herself is comfortable with herself and has no issue with wearing a certain kind of clothing around others. Think about that for a second. There has been at least more than once that everyone has stopped and said "You know what...? I don't think I want to wear this shirt out. It's not something I want to wear in public." It's a form of self consciousness.

I'm not confusing a video game character with a person. But a character is created to either mimic or give an incite on how a certain person is or can be. You can't make a double standard and say "Well, it's in a video game so it's different."

This is a picture of a woman walking down the street in her clothing. Yes, it is revealing. However she is smiling and is walking with an air of confidence. Is she degrading to women because she has more leg and breast showing than most women in public?

Or even this woman. She seems to like how she is dressed. Is she degrading to women because she is showing more leg and stomach than the average woman?

The problem I have with your argument is that fictional women dressing a certain way is degrading to women because "They don't have a choice." However a character is made to have their own sense of flair and character and what they wear is part of that. It's expression. Art in every sense of the word. If we demand a change in something like that, we are asking for censorship, judging, and downing women who DO wear revealing clothing.

What I find perplexing about this kind of debate is that it's a subject of what is acceptable for a woman to wear or not wear--or even a portrayal of what a fictional woman would wear because it degrades or brings shame to a group of people... which is the same so called "Suppressive ideology" that men in the middle east have so that women must wear burkas.

You can't just say "Well, I have an issue with fake women dressing that way, but real women, that's okay." That's the definition of a bias, unfounded, and restrictive double standard, ma'am.

Edit: Also, eyes over here people.

Due to many many people using this word incorrectly, I will address a constant "defense" if you will.

"This is degrading to women."

Degrading: Causing a loss of self-respect; humiliating.

In order for a video game character to cause a lack of self-respect, it would need to impact you to a point where you are humiliated personally. In order for all women to be degraded by a depiction of a video game character's portrayal, that character would need to undergo an action that would cause humiliation. However, the majority of these women who are "degrading" as many would put it--are in positions of power that supersede men in games. Princesses, Queens, bounty hunters, warriors, fighters, spies. Due to their positions in life and their professions and proficiencies, they serve as an example of a position to strive for in life.

I will give you an example of women being degraded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIg4j43Lqaw

This is degrading. Women in this restaurant are forced to eat beans without hands, and only their face in order to go home earlier. The actions of this person does give an image of cheapening women as nothing but a source of entertainment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvpGacNptzw

This is online gameplay of Ivy fighting Siegfried. During no point in this does this show any cheap or devaluing of women. She clearly is holding her own against him, on equal terms and is just as capable, if more more of a fighter than he is. So I ask you, how is this degrading? If she were wearing a business suit and had a pony tail styled hairdo, would that make it appropriate? In a game where there is a male character who is covered by nothing but two belts?

In the hooters example, it shows women without power being taken advantage of and humiliated. With the Ivy example, she's beating the living day lights out of a male who is bigger than her. Do you mean to suggest that if Ivy were in the hooters situation--dressed as she is--she would simply plow her face into a plate of beans. No, I think that manager would be the one who's face is in a place, while he's picking out his teeth from the beans.

I think your aggression is pointed the wrong way.

 

[Blunderman]

snip

I feel obliged to chip in here and thank you for making such a good, comprehensive argument on the topic at hand. Up until now, it's been looking kind of empty on this side of the issue.

 

[Sir Prize]

I'll also note that she has apparantly tried to review the amount of sexist in a game she didn't bother playing. That alone screams 'not taking this seriously' or at least trying to make a strawman arguement. If that is anything to go by, I doubt she'll put the research or effort into her series and it will be shallow and pointless. But I hope that I am wrong.

Technically she was criticizing the ad campaign, not the game, and I do agree she's too dismissive of the game itself.

That being said, the ad campaign for this game had the same effect on me - I found it distasteful and didn't want the game. Multiple reviews afterward said it was more than it was selling, and so that sparked my interest.

My mistake there, I hadn't seen the video, because I think it's been taken down.

 

[Sir Prize]

Like it or not games can be sexist and history can prove that much. From the amount of cheesecake on show to the stereotypes used, there is defiantly a case for this. Lara Croft, Princess Peach, Other M Samus and many female characters created by Team Ninja do play into this. And it makes videogames and the people that play them look childish, which isn't always true. Point blank maybe 'gamers' need to adimt there's a case of this and not get so defensive about it, the average feminist is NOT trying to 'ruin games'.

Lara Croft and Princess Peach didn't get the cheesecake treatment until much later in their gaming careers.

As for Other M Samus, Extra Credit did a good video as to what most likely went wrong there; in a nutshell it was Too Many Cooks meets Bad Writing 101 topped off with Samus' lines being delivered by what Yahtzee described as "a voice actress who has undergone several amateur lobotomies." I think only Link got worst treatment and that was in an animated show. (Excuse me, Princess. Ugh.)

Point taken on the first bit.

The writers didn't seem to understand the main character they were working with, or any of the other characters for that matter.

But one of the writers involved was no less then Yoshio Sakamoto (one of the *creators* of Samus) "The game's story was definitely the product of Mr. Sakamoto at Nintendo. We definitely worked with them on the project, but that was all him." (G4 Media and Kotaku)

It was like what happened with Asprin and his MythAdventures series which after a nearly 10 years hiatus he returned to...and it simply didn't work. Even Conan Doyle had problems making his later Holmes stories consistent with what he had written earlier to the point that some would like to forget that things like "The Mazarin Stone" are part of the canon.

As EC said there were better ways for us to get up to speed with Samus--comm chatter would have been a vast improvement over that inane wooden monotone monologue we did get. It's worse than that Tauren (Kor'kron Primalist) in Warcraft that TotalBiscuit made a joke about.

I agree with all your points here, I know that he was involved but I thought there would be more than one writer. Yoshio Sakamoto kinda screwed up with Other M and there's no good way for saying it. Maybe one of the things to would have been to have her seem less obessed with Adam (I think that was his name), and show him in a better light.

To be fair to Yoshio Sakamoto as the EC video ("Learning from Other M") shows you also had the political pressures of Teen Ninja, D-Rocket, and Nintendo in the mix. So you have the "Bad Writing" situation of Yoshio Sakamoto having to write around whatever those three had planned for the game.

Then there is the fun issue of game mechanics butting heads with the writing. Sometimes as in WoW it can result in bizarre and sometimes silly situations--if you have ever taken a Worgen through Grizzly Hills you know what I mean. But in Other M this clash was a disaster and the lack of any comm chatter made this already bad situation worse. Instead of the strong independent Samus everyone was expecting we got a woman with seemingly nearly as many (though different) psychological hangups as Sylvanas Windrunner.

Whilst I don't play WoW, I do understand what you mean here. If they had managed to make the gameplay and plotline work together things would have been different.

 

[Cheesepower5]

The entire sexism argument should be flatly ignored.

No progress is ever made and when push comes to shiv the only people left participating are the Women who want all me to die and the Men who think of women as Objects.

The biggest problem with the entire argument is that it is too subjective. The latest Sex Symbol in Japan is Nintendos Office Lady in their ads. Cultural boundaries are so erratic on what would be sexually exploitative of women would be anything and everything.

The ultimate result of the argument isn't any good ether.

Eastern Orthodox Catholics/Russian Catholics view Hair as Sexually Seductive. Therefor, women must wear head scarves.

Islam, any skin showing on a woman is too Sexually Seductive in public. Therefor, women must be fully clothed from head to toe.

Your argument ultimately falls to pieces, because you offer no valid solution, and can be pared down to Attractive Women Shouldn't Be Seen.

So which world do you want?

Do you want a world where women are free to exist as whatever tramp, harlot, stripper, engineer, teacher, or scientist they want to be?

Or do you want a world where women are not to be seen in public?

The path you're presenting Bob is the path that leads to women not being seen even though I know your intention is not to go that far. Your logic is the very logic that has been used to Oppress women the most.

How about a world were men can be trusted no to rape a woman because they see some hair or ankle and women are judged by the skill they bring to the job/issue/whatever and nothing else.

In order for that to happen you need to be aware of the problem. There is no "here is the way to fix this problem" solution aside frmo education and changing the perspectice of people. Bob's episode is a great example of this solution, so I completely disagree with your statement. If one young boy starts to question why he thinks less of women then this video was a success.

Wait, is this guy/girl saying men can't be trusted not to rape? I might have read (and re-read) it wrong but that's just - woah.

 

[Jacob Texeira]

I just feel squeamish that a web series about sexism in gaming is by someone who may not be asking for fighting game characters to be more feminist, but for fighting games themselves to stop existing. And this producer may bend truth to do her attacks.

Hello old me. I've had time to think.

I'm guessing prominent media figures like Oprah (not that I know if Oprah herself is included) have had chances to attack video games, but they've never seemed to be able to eliminate any game that I would've liked to see. (except 6 days in Fallujah). So Ms. Sarkeesian isn't likely to become the Ragnarok of genres that I feared she'd once be. Could she the Ragnarok of adult women prefixes? Ms. doesn't feel as mature to me as Mr. Maybe Marcie from Peanuts was right when using sir as a unisex term.

Currently I'm doing writing for some video games I hope to make in the future, even if these games wind up solo projects. There will be playable female characters in these games, none of whom will have bouncing breasts, breasts higher than a D cup, breasts less than 100% covered, or non-flat footwear. I think I'll make some of them 26 years old, past "Christmas Cake".

 

[Schadrach]

She's not the one I'm concerned about. What I worry about is the fact that this happened at all. The fact that you could spam 4chan and actually expect a reaction like this is pretty damn sad.

That's the core of it though. It's not even a matter of 4chan being misogynistic, it's a matter of shaking a wasps nest, sticking it down your pants, and then pretending that being stung is proof that forests are misogynistic.

4chan/anon isn't misogynistic, they're pretty equal opportunity anti whatever aspect of you is recognizable. Identifying as female meant the attack was going to be misogynistic. Identifying as anything was going to make the attack anti-that. I'm pretty sure if Paul Elam spammed 4chan to drum up funding for AVfM, you'd see another hellstorm of hatred on your hands.

 

[evilneko]

Now I really want to play Big Boob Panty Ninja 12.

I'd rather it be Pettanko Nopan Ninja. But, that's just me.

Oh wait, X-Blades was preeeetty close to that, even without a certain texmod.. *ahem*

 

[BNguyen]

After watching a few of her earlier videos I have to say the problem is with the messenger rather than the message.

One of the problems with her earlier videos is she has the comments is up for approval option on effectively stacking the deck and squelching any real meaningful comment--so those who have been suppressed for a long time got a chance to nuts and say stupid things egging on the trolls to add in their two cents and things quickly go down the tubes.

It doesn't help her "research" is at best laughable when it is not totally pathetic. For example, her portrayal of Captain Janeway as a *favorable* female lead character in her "The Smurfette Principle" shows she doesn't do anything even resembling research. Depending on the episode Janeway is either portrayed as crazier then Captain Garth and Janice Lester combined while being dumber then John Gill of TOS (a point reviewer SF Debris loves to bring up again and again) or Captain Mary Sue.

She seems to be avoiding a point that the Over Thinker brought up way back in "Mississippi Pwning 2" (E23)-the brass tax that encourages these tropes because most gamers are young white males. Then you have the whole "Video Games Come From Japan" problem with all that entails.

Yes there is a problem but this is not the person you want to bring up the issue because you _know_ the research is going to be so bad-one sided that everybody with sense will dismiss it as "feminist strawmen argument BS" and it will do the same amount of damage to the movement as the extremists who wanted 'policeman' turned into 'policeperson' and other totally off the wall nonsense.

On one of her videos where she points out Winnie the Pooh being applied to the 'smurfette rule' I tried to write a post explaining the reasoning behind the characters and just shortly after it appeared I left, and when I brought the page back up my post had been deleted, clearly she is only going to keep posts that glorify her as a victim.

EDIT: incidentally, surrounding my post were posts that either demeaned her or her work as a whole, so yeah, I do believe she is only going to use what helps her, not what helps pull her down

 

[maximara]

And honestly, if you judge any of them just for their clothing (And by you, I mean anyone) you are as judgmental and objectifying as anyone else is. I mean really, the pre-bias that someone is either lacking in intelligence or in self respect due to the clothes they are wearing is one that has got to go. I've seen it too many times when a woman is simply dressed a certain way and immediately put in "Skank" or "Whore" bin of humanity. One of the most intelligent women I know and has a 3.9 GPA wears short shorts that come to the edge of her butt because she feels comfortable in them. It's a bit of a side issue that I am stating here, however I have a really big problem when people outcry because of a lack of clothing.

I'm even confused by it. A larger majority of women at one point began to wear less clothing to oppose men who at the time demanded that women cover up more to decrease the chances of anyone looking at their wives. But now that men find it sexy or someone if comfortable expressing themselves in a fashion sense, it's degrading?

You're confusing video game characters with actual people. Women who make conscientious decisions about their bodies and what to put on them are empowered. But video game characters don't make decisions about what they wear; the people designing them do, and those people are typically men. Too much emphasis on the sexuality of female characters is degrading to women.

Like it or not games can be sexist and history can prove that much. From the amount of cheesecake on show to the stereotypes used, there is defiantly a case for this. Lara Croft, Princess Peach, Other M Samus and many female characters created by Team Ninja do play into this. And it makes videogames and the people that play them look childish, which isn't always true. Point blank maybe 'gamers' need to adimt there's a case of this and not get so defensive about it, the average feminist is NOT trying to 'ruin games'.

E:

Lara Croft and Princess Peach didn't get the cheesecake treatment until much later in their gaming careers.

yeah about that:

[/quote]

Note I said *cheesecake* ie "scantily clothed attractive women"; Lara is *not* scantily clothed in the above.

The helium breast implant problem (which the above *is* an example of) goes back over a hundred years. The reference has a unintended double meaning as one of the common cheesecakes at the beginning of the 20th century was Dejah Thoris of Burroughs's Barsoom series (1912-1942) who was Princess of Helium.

 

[rembrandtqeinstein]

I will buy big boob panty ninja 12, as long as it does not have regenerating health.

 

[cobra_ky]

snip

I feel obliged to chip in here and thank you for making such a good, comprehensive argument on the topic at hand. Up until now, it's been looking kind of empty on this side of the issue.

If you could help explain it to me at all, i'd appreciate it. The English isn't too great and frankly i can hardly understand what he's saying :/

oh well, i'll take a crack at a response tomorrow i guess.

Note I said *cheesecake* ie "scantily clothed attractive women"; Lara is *not* scantily clothed in the above.

The helium breast implant problem (which the above *is* an example of) goes back over a hundred years. The reference has a unintended double meaning as one of the common cheesecakes at the beginning of the 20th century was Dejah Thoris of Burroughs's Barsoom series (1912-1942) who was Princess of Helium.

ok, sorry. i guess that is a slightly different form of sexual exploitation.

 

[rbstewart7263]

"LadyRhian"
We (and Anita Sarkeesian) aren't saying there aren't any. We're saying there aren't enough of them.

Really? I will give a few more examples. *Clears throat... inhales.*

1)Titania: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance.
2)Mia: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
3)Nephenee: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
4)Lethe: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
5)Lucia: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
6)Jill: Fire emblem Path of Radiance
7)Princess/Queen Elincia: Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
8)Lyn: Fire Emblem Blazing sword
9)April Ryan: Longest Journey
10)Alyx Vance: Half Life 2
11)Ashe: Final Fantasy XII
12)Tifa: Final Fantasy VII
13)Quistis: Final Fantasy VIII
14)Edea Kramer: Final Fantasy VIII
15)Lightning: Final Fantasy XIII
16)Agrais: Final Fantasy Tactics
17)Beatrix: FInal fantasy IX
18)Lara Croft: Tomb Raider Anniversary (If you cannot see how humanized she is in this game, I can't help you.)
19)Claire: Resident evil
20)Jill: Resident evil
21)Sheva: Resident evil (Honestly, she's saved Chris's backside so many times. And is more capable than he is and can keep her head on straight easier)
22)Lucia: Chrono Trigger
23)Kidd: Chrono Cross
24)Sarah Lyons: Fallout 3
25)Hope's Mother: Final Fantasy XIII
26)Ruby: Wet
27)Amaterasu: Okami
28)Celes Cher: Final Fantasy VI
29)Samus: From every Metroid game OUTSIDE of other M. (She isn't portrayed very much in most games, however Metroid Fusion and the comics do a great job of doing so.)
30)Nel: Star Ocean Til The end of Time
31)Mirage Kaos: Star Ocean Til The end of Time
32)Maria Trador: Star Ocean Til The end of Time
33)Myuria Tionysus: Star Ocean The Last Hope

And honestly, if you judge any of them just for their clothing (And by you, I mean anyone) you are as judgmental and objectifying as anyone else is. I mean really, the pre-bias that someone is either lacking in intelligence or in self respect due to the clothes they are wearing is one that has got to go. I've seen it too many times when a woman is simply dressed a certain way and immediately put in "Skank" or "Whore" bin of humanity. One of the most intelligent women I know and has a 3.9 GPA wears short shorts that come to the edge of her butt because she feels comfortable in them. It's a bit of a side issue that I am stating here, however I have a really big problem when people outcry because of a lack of clothing.

I'm even confused by it. A larger majority of women at one point began to wear less clothing to oppose men who at the time demanded that women cover up more to decrease the chances of anyone looking at their wives. But now that men find it sexy or someone if comfortable expressing themselves in a fashion sense, it's degrading?

Honestly, that's 33 women I can think of in games off the top of my mind who are strong, capable, do NOT need a man around to save them and influential. Going so far as saying that there should be no shame in looking up to them.

Thank you sir.

 

[rbstewart7263]

You're confusing video game characters with actual people. Women who make conscientious decisions about their bodies and what to put on them are empowered. But video game characters don't make decisions about what they wear; the people designing them do, and those people are typically men. Too much emphasis on the sexuality of female characters is degrading to women.


Then more women should make games.


If feminism is equivilent to empowerment then let us seek what is more empowering. Lets also ask ourselves which one will get the job done more efficiently and faster.


Women taking control and making the videogames and characters they want to see?

or

Feminist journalists eyeballing and critiquing the work that your average male game developer makes. criticizing his work because it doesnt suit your vision of empowerment until said game you want to see is made.

And I dont want to hear about hiring practices and ea and such and such. The creators of braid and fez worked without having to have these accoutrements and if you are empowered; if you are in fact mine and the equal of every man out there making these games. then you should get out there and make some damn videogames.

 

[Blunderman]

If you could help explain it to me at all, i'd appreciate it. The English isn't too great and frankly i can hardly understand what he's saying :/

That is a childish and pointless thing to write. His English doesn't even border on unintelligible. If you don't have any arguments to make against his position then either take a break and come up with some or stay out of the discussion.

 

[Throwitawaynow]

1:50 Sexism against men doesn't trivialize or cancel sexism against women.

2:50 Happens to both genders but doesn't mean either is ok. Also, source? You have a description box for this reason. "Everyday in the real world qualified woman lose out on jobs and advancement because this or that gatekeeper of opportunity overwhelmingly likely to be a heterosexual white male."

Then you go on to trivialize any sexism men do face in the work force. Great job, keep up the good work.