The Big Picture: You Are Wrong About Sucker Punch, Part One

Darknacht

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Abandon4093 said:
Darknacht said:
Abandon4093 said:
Darknacht said:
Abandon4093 said:
Darknacht said:
Abandon4093 said:
Darknacht said:
Abandon4093 said:
Revolutionaryloser said:
Abandon4093 said:
Darknacht said:
Abandon4093 said:
They're dressed in fitishised outfits and dance for patrons. Half of the action scenes have them in freaking school girl uniforms or some shit.

Do the math.
They are dressed up in fetishized outfits but its so over the top that its not actually sexy.
I think about 95% of the people who enjoyed the movie would like a word with you.
He's right. It's not actually sexy. It's like a satire of what sexy looks like.
Sorry, I'll just defer to you on what people are allowed to find sexy now. Seeing as you're obviously thee authority on it and it's not like attraction is a totally subjective concept or anything.
Overly bleached hair with the roots showing, silly looking pig tails, the ill-fitted cloths of a child, and overdone makeup, yeah thats sexy to some people but everything is sexy to someone.
Not some people, a large amount of people. That's why there's such a market for that sort of shit.

The School girl trope is a trope for a reason. As is the bleached blonde look.

You're making the painful mistake of comparing popular opinion to your own. You don't find sexy =/= most people don't find sexy.
I'm not saying people don't find it sexy I'm just saying that it was intentionally overdone, and that does not mean that people can't think that intentionally overdone 'sexy', with caked on makeup and silly hairstyles and clothing, is still sexy, just look at some anime, but that does not make it any less overdone.

But overdone often goes hand in hand with sex appeal.

It's another cry to uniqueness... no matter how ironic that intent eventually comes off because of how many people imitate it.
That does not make it any less overdone. Its like the girls names, yeah people will find a girl in a movie having the name Babydoll sexy but its still over the top and and kind of absurd.
I'm struggling to see how this means anything at all in context of the discussion.
Everything being overdone and kind of absurd was part of the satire of the movie and just because people still find it sexy does not stop it from being satire.
Except that extreme clothes, situations and abilities are staple tropes for normal entries into the genre that Sucker Punch was supposed to be satirisng. If it's to be a successful satire there needs to be something that distinguishes it from what it's attempting to ape. Sucker Punch was just recreating what it's supposed to be deconstructing and then tacked on a superfluous message about how people raping the mentally infirm is an allegory for the intended audiences exploitation of the characters they're viewing.

It's a non sequitur. It's comparing harmless escapism to full on sexual and mental abuse.

I'm all for films having messages, but the message was full on wrong and I'd argue misandrist.

A successful satire shouldn't have to fall back on such disingenuous drivel just because the meat and potatoes of it's film was indistinguishable from what it's supposedly mocking.
It may have been indistinguishable to you but as this thread has proven many people could tell the difference. You might not have liked it and many people did not get it, even though the movie explained it, but it still was a satire, not the best satire but not being good does not change what it is.
 

Crazy Zaul

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If Zach Snyder thinks thinks i'm a bad person that's his problem. Just please don't ruin superman.
 

Frankfurter4444

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I like Sucker Punch. I also remember men who saw it pretending to be feminists by criticizing it for having attractive women in it looking attractive as if that itself makes it wrong. From my exposure most real feminist like attractive women to look attractive or at least find nothing wrong with it and that criticism of the film annoyed me.

Overall I thought it stood up well as an action movie because (to quote Bob himself) "Action scenes get better when you care about the people in the fight and understand why they're fighting." I thought it stood up well as a mind screw due to all the perspective shifts and reality confusion. And I thought it stood up well visually due to its colors and styles.
 

Icehearted

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I loved the movie and have probably seen it well over a dozen times. For it's visual finesse, it's depth, and it's honey trap bullshit. That's all I'll be saying about my opinion of the movie because...

Feminism? Really? We're doing this again?

Goddammit.

As much as men and women lambast men and women (mostly men...mostly) for their objectification of the "fairer sex", women sure as hell love objectifying themselves. I'm going to make the same arguments I and others have made for years; Cosmetics or cosmetic surgery, bras that push breasts up to a woman's neck, skimpy outfits, short skirts, plunging necklines, there is a list as long as life itself of things women do to themselves with absent regularity to objectify themselves that far exceed whatever men do to objectify them. This is just for starters, and I really hate running off this idea first, but with regard to media such as movies, music, and video games, women are doing this to themselves far more than men are actually capable of accomplishing if even it were our sole purpose in existence to objectify women and nothing else.

Booth Babes aren't forced at gunpoint to don tight outfits, neither are singers or other female musicians. Gone are the days when dazed and glazed (and modestly clothed) Stevie Nicks could charm a crowd, now we have pop-tarts shaking their asses at us, or underage teen women (may as well since they're selling sex too) in heavy makeup and tight outfits pandering to young lust for sales. I know it goes both ways here, but the subject if misandry is often sidelined because anything any man could experience as far as objectification is concerned pales to what poor oppressed women must endure by we penis-wielding rape monsters.

Actresses; have you seen how these women dress? Have you seen what they do off camera. Not sure I've seen many these days that haven't posed ass-end at cameras on red-carpet events. My favorite actress is arguably not even a sexy one, she's just extremely talented (Glenn Close if you wanted to know).

Anything intended to be an expressly feminist or a feminist friendly media product is simply pandering to an unrealistic fear of something that doesn't actually exist. Men in many cases have fewer rights than women, as well as fewer protections, supports, and available resources to expressly their benefit. Statistically men are actually victimized by women in matters of domestic violence, sexual abuse, and non-reciprocal domestic violence by their intimate female partner than women are by their men. These are facts (I don't want to drag citations into this but I will if I have to).

Don't even get me started in the everything else category; when was the last time we heard about prostate cancer awareness month, Prostate Cancer Awareness Yogurt, Tic Tacs, Barbie or other toys? Where are the Prostate Cancer awareness ribbons? What's the color for prostate cancer awareness anyway? No where? Now let's remove prostate cancer and replace it with "breast cancer". Everywhere, especially during breast cancer awareness month. The rub, for those of you out of the loop, Prostate cancer kills a great deal more men than breast cancer kills women anally, by an extremely wide margin. Funding? Breast cancer awareness and support (I use this word in the general sense) receive far more funding than prostate cancer, by an extremely wide margin.

I digress, radically...

The idea that a movie like Sucker Punch, despite it's messy writing, direction or editing, and it's heavy-handed sexual tone in some way is an affront to females and a misogynistic film by any stretch of the imagination is absolute garbage, and anyone making this claim has none of the facts and may or may not be living in reality.

Feminists or their sympathizers can attempt all they want to cry foul about it, video games, etcetera, but in doing this, in making an issue where none exists they persist in proving they haven't a solid thing to stand on, and are in fact themselves the real problem.
 

Calbeck

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Jul 13, 2008
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Very thoughtful and interesting deconstruction. Thanks, Bob!
 

Jingle Fett

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MovieBob said:
You Are Wrong About Sucker Punch, Part One

MovieBob delivers a Sucker Punch to your senses.

Watch Video
Thank you MovieBob, it's great to see a good and fair analysis of Sucker Punch. It's one of my favorite movies of all time and I've always thought that a lot of the criticisms were quite unfair. It's not just a dumb girls with guns type movie, there's a lot more to it than that.

With the sucker punch aspect, I think that it's so much not criticizing the male demographic for objectifying as it's saying
"if all you like/see in this movie is sexy fetish girls doing cool stuff, then you're as bad as the villains. If you get turned on by that stuff and don't care about the rest, then you're as bad as the villains.". But if you get the movie for what it really is, you're obviously not. It challenges you to think about yourself. I'm guessing some people probably don't really like that message.
Pretty devious way to pre-emptively give the critics the finger if you ask me...
(when I think it I guess that is sort of the point you were making, it just sounded different in my head).

I also think the comparison to Starship Troopers you made at the beginning was pretty spot on, when I saw ST for the first time (a few years ago) I loved it because I totally loved the satire vibe from it; on the surface it might have been just an action flick but if you looked closely there were lots of little details to think about and it was a lot deeper than it initially seemed. I was surprised when I found out so many people didn't seem to get that aspect of it and I think it's a similar situation with SP. Anyways, can't wait for part 2 of the big picture :)


As to the fetished outfits debate going on here, take a look at the average female anime character. Here are some google results...

Female Anime Warrior

Female Anime Soldier



I spy similarities. I'm no anime expert, I watch very few. But even I can tell that Sucker Punch was clearly satirizing that aspect with the costume design. Hell if anything, Sucker Punch was on the more modest end of the spectrum. The fact that Sucker Punch also borrows other aspects from anime (robot samurai, giant mecha, katana sword fighting, etc.) should add to that.

The way I see it, if King Leonidas is the over the top Kratos-type, 8-pack, head-ripping, shirtless uber-badass, the girls in Sucker Punch are the female equivalent. Maybe they look sexy, maybe not, but it seems obvious that the purpose wasn't sexiness just for the sake of sexiness.
Hell, Zack Snyder himself said that where 300 was about male badasses with a mainly male cast, Sucker Punch was about female badasses with a mainly female cast.
 
Apr 17, 2009
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The problem I have is that it tells us we're bad for wanting to watch such strip-tease elements then offers us those elements as much as possible. That doesn't make it the clever heroines tricking us stupid males, that makes it the sleazy guy running the asylum/bordello who's telling us "phwoar, come have a go on that".
 

uguito-93

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Jul 16, 2009
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Here's the thing, sure the movie could have all those hidden meanings but in the end of the day it was still a bad movie. I wen to see this with a friend, I "got" it, she didn't and we both thought it was terrible. You can go on and on about the symbolism behind everything but that simply sounds like you trying to justify liking this movie to everyone else. Something along the lines of "They would see how good the movie really was if they ignored the bulk of it and concentrated on all the (rather ham-fisted in my opinion) visual metaphors".
 

Aris Khandr

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Cyfu said:
I have to be honest. I only watched the movie for 3 reasons:
1. "babydoll" is fucking hot.
2. Schoolgirl outfit? hawt
3. hot chick in schoolgirl outfit fighting with a katana.

Although I would imagine the majority watched it for these reasons
I saw it because I love Vanessa Hudgens, and will see anything she's in.
 

TheDrunkNinja

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Sutter Cane said:
Don't judge the video until you've watched it dude.
PunkRex said:
I get what you mean guy but its actually something I kind of like about Bob, at least when he keeps it classy. I enjoyed this vid, hell it made me realise a few things about the movie I didn't previously notice, but the moment Bob gets aggressive like he did in his Expendables 1 and Transformers 3 reveiws is the point were I kind of have to draw the line.

Also before anyone goes calling me a fanboy, I can't stand ALOT of what Bob has said he finds enjoyable e.g. Zodiac, Drag me to Hell, Clash of the Titans (I know he said it was only okay but my gawd that movie), hated each one with a passion. I don't think you necessarily need to agree with someone to find their points of veiw interesting.

I liked the vid, as I said it made me think of a few things I didn't before, curious as to next weeks topic.
Kay, watched it because someone I trust promised he was at least aware of the movie's faults as he was speaking. Which I believe after watching it, but considering how overly-defensive Bob gets when people call him out, the title is probably the most rage-inducing thing he could have chosen, so just a extremely poor choice of words on his part. Hell, maybe he did that intentionally, in which case, he'd be just a big douchebag, but I don't think that's the case.

Funny thing is, when I went to see this movie with my friends, none of us were really complaining about the fact that it was "misogynistic", just that the "female empowerment" message had fallen flat on its face. Honestly, we had other complaints about the movie, but a lot about Babydoll's actions just pissed us all off. Like the fact that Babydoll only shows true strength against her antagonizes in her dreams but only proves herself to be weak and unmoved even when her friends die around her (even considering that they are dying because of her mission to get out of the brothel before the highroller comes for her).

There was a lot that just... sucked. Maybe Bob is onto something with this reverse misogyny thing, if that is the case, then Snyder was in waaaaay over his head and failed in what he aimed to accomplish.
 

Paradoxrifts

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I absolutely loved Suckerpunch, but the funny thing about it is when I went out and bought it on DVD I just couldn't sit down and watch it all the way through a second time. The blatant sexploitation of the female cast was for me an absolute treat, and I respect any film that comes out of Hollywood with the guts to end on a downer like Suckerpunch did.

But put them together?

Well, when you sit down and watch the movie again you do find yourself in the uncomfortable position of having sat down deliberately to watch a snuff film. Now I'm jaded cynical bastard, but I'm not too far gone not to recognise that and feel a little unsettled about it.

The thing about this sort of entertainment is that there exists a tacit agreement between the audience and media creator that whatever ends up happening, nothing 'really bad' will tend to happen to the sexy eye candy. And even on the odd occasion when something does happen because somebody decided to push the envelop, it will largely happen off screen to try and unsuccessfully avoid a shitstorm. Some authors and artists by virtue of their long histories of provocation are more successful at getting away with stuff then others.
 

Azaraxzealot

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If the themes or symbolism had to be explained outside of the film/book/comic/game/any form of media, then the media obviously did a piss-poor job at getting it to the audience in the first place. Which makes it a shitty movie.

Seriously, if a work of entertainment or art is made it should be able to stand on its own merits without any outside interpretation needing to be tacked on later or before. This is like a developer making a game that is all out of order and has to be played upside down and underwater and be read backwards in latin, now it MAY be a good or even fantastic game, but the fact of the matter is that it would have to be explained how to experience it, which is a fault not of the audience or other critics, but of the creator and the work.

Long story short, if most people "didn't get it", then it did a shitty job at connecting to the audience, and trying to argue otherwise is like defending Kevin Smith's and blockbuster Hollywood's current view of critics.

Case in point. [http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/sucker-punch-2010/]
 

RTK1576

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Aug 4, 2009
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The message in Sucker Punch is a good one. The movie is not.

Take Starship Troopers. When I first watched it, I was fairly alienated. I went to a theater which was crowded with college-age guys. The testosterone was high and the movie gave the men what they wanted. Never a good sign that the movie with a subversive message is pleasing the wrong crowd. Point being, if you're trying to be satirical and say the opposite of what you're showing, try not to do too good a job of presenting the thing you're actually against. Plus you still have to have a movie worth watching at the end of the day.

That's why Starship Troopers didn't work. That's why Sucker Punch didn't work. Oh, they entertained certain audiences, but the point was lost in the process.

Cabin in the Woods, on the other hand, managed to ride the line between movie and message. It did it right.
 

Lilani

Sometimes known as CaitieLou
May 27, 2009
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Azaraxzealot said:
If the themes or symbolism had to be explained outside of the film/book/comic/game/any form of media, then the media obviously did a piss-poor job at getting it to the audience in the first place. Which makes it a shitty movie.
I'm pretty sure Bob got it, at the very least.

I think the themes of Sucker Punch were very subversive, and apparently just a bit too subversive for the primary audience viewing the movie. But knowing the movie's true intention, doesn't that make it all the more interesting? Plenty of geeks flocked to the movie to watch the girls in Japanese schoolgirl uniforms kick some ass, making the whole thing sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Making the joke any more obvious would have undermined the purpose of setting up such an elaborate set of symbols and parallels in the first place.

So was it a bit too much for the casual moviegoer to get on the first go? Yes, but that's sort of the point. It is intended to be a trap for those seeking what's on the surface.
 

Brotherofwill

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I saw this review, went back in time, created this account and then posted a couple thousand posts just to say this:

I saw this movie when it came out and it was disgusting, insulting shit. Everyone sitting in that audience walked out of the theater a little dumber.
There's nothing to get with the movie. Every angle of it is horrible. Plot, characters, music, direction and especially the oh-so-clever message. Screw this garbage, I pray for the soul of the guy that wrote/ thought of it. May he find peace.
 

Ariseishirou

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Huh. And here I thought people hated it because it was a shitty movie.

Shoehorning a feminist interpretation onto a shitty movie doesn't make it less of a shitty movie, Bob.
 

faefrost

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I got what Snyder was trying to say with the movie. I really did. But that does not excuse the fact that listening to him say it was an unbelievable painful experience. Sucker Punch is like watching torture porn. It's even worse if you do get what the film is trying to say. Because you end up feeling so dirty that your skin wants to crawl out of the theater without you. I know they tell us that movies stirring an emotion is good. But this isn't always true. Disgust and Revulsion do not make for a good movie. No matter how many explosions or fetish dressed teenage girls they give you.
 

PunkRex

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TheDrunkNinja said:
in which case, he'd be just a big douchebag, but I don't think that's the case.
That made me laugh.
TheDrunkNinja said:
Like the fact that Babydoll only shows true strength against her antagonizes in her dreams but only proves herself to be weak and unmoved even when her friends die around her (even considering that they are dying because of her mission to get out of the brothel before the highroller comes for her).
Well, at the end of the day she is still a young girl, fantasy empowerment is one thing but its another to actually ask a teen (regardless of sex) with no combat experience to subdue would be attackers.