The Books That Founded D&D
- Thread starter James Maliszewski
- Start date
I concur that Tolkien had no greater influence and perhaps less on D&D then the other works mentioned. Back when I was playing D&D AND reading Tolkien, nearly three decades ago, I found it pretty hard to assimilate the two, to the point I gave up quickly and just accepted they were apples and oranges.
Each are separately works of genius in their own way. Of the two I bet D&D will have the more staying power. Watching the LotR movies almost felt like an homage to a fantasy world that is not so much aging as growing old.
Each are separately works of genius in their own way. Of the two I bet D&D will have the more staying power. Watching the LotR movies almost felt like an homage to a fantasy world that is not so much aging as growing old.
You speak the truth. I recall several AD&D Monster Manuals focusing on actual alien races (complete with laser guns and the like) as well as, the standard horrors and miscreants. I guess if D&D were run more as a Soft Sci-Fi setting (closer to Pulp , I would wager) the campaign would look something like Krull.dukethepcdr said:
That actually sounds fairly awesome!
Lovecraft is only one of the greatest writers who ever lived...in my own opinion of course =DVierran said:
This article is really great!
I'd love to see more of this sort of thing on The Escapist. Digging back to the roots of different aspects of gaming is something I find fascinating. Even better when - as in the case of books - it's still possible to experience old creative works first hand!
I'd love to see more of this sort of thing on The Escapist. Digging back to the roots of different aspects of gaming is something I find fascinating. Even better when - as in the case of books - it's still possible to experience old creative works first hand!
While Lewis definitely drapes his fictional work in fantastical settings, the Christian overtones and knowledge of his other works may work against his influence in the genre. Especially in a contemporary audience, most fantasy fans would rather not have a major protagonist who's an allegory for Jesus.domicius said:
James Maliszewski said:
Well, I would also point out things like the "Intelligent Weapon" rules and ego contests and such to begin with back in AD&D which stylistically is very Moorcockian (lol) as conflicts like that happen in a lot of his books. Everything he writes even apart from the original four hero cycle (Elric, Hawkmoon, Corum, and Erekose) involving the same concepts, and arguably the same character with or without the memories of his other counterparts. Even Sojan The Swordsman was fit into the mythos.
I think Michael Moorcock is missing from a lot of the referances simply for copyrights. Consider that Chaosium bought both the rights to Elric (and arguably the entire Moorcock Multiverse... the concept of a multiverse also being something that I believe Gygax took from him) as well as Call Of Cthulhu. This lead to the removal of both of those mythos from AD&D's Deities and Demigods later on down the road.
Being sword and sorcery it would be much easier for someone to go after him if he admitted to taking influance from Moorcock later on, while Cthulhu is relatively easy to sidestep since it had little to do with sword and sorcery to begin with.
I also get the impression that TSR and it's decendant companies have had a bug up their collective butts about that property because it was a big deal. I notice for example that while we did see a D20 "Dragon Lords Of Melnibone" sourcebook written under the OGL, Cthulhu saw an official D20 book, complete with a hardcover adventure that is almost the equal of classics like "Masks Of Nylarthotep" or "Horror On The Orient Express".
I suppose it can't truely be resolved, but truthfully I think Moorcock is one of the most influential forces on D&D, and western fantasy in general. Heck years ago when they did "The Invisibles" (comic series) they even fit some Jeremiah Cornelius referances in there.
Having started a Classic D&D campaign this year, I went out and read (and re-read in some cases) many of these inspirations to help guide my vision for the campaign. I think the result has been worthwhile in helping me break out of strict fantasy. Our party recently found a laser sword...
> Lovecraft was unique in his time for combining a Gothic literary sensibility with a philosophy that downplayed humanity's importance in the universe. Though Lovecraft's worldview is in some ways antithetical to that presented in D&D, many of the game's monsters are clearly inspired by his stories...
Not at all antithetical IMHO since D&D was not created by EGG alone, although his general humanocentric worldview did win out as the majority expression given in the somewhat skeletal ruleset as first published (minus any campaign world).
Once again, what /didn't/ get published explicitly is at least as important as what did and to say that "many of the game's monsters are clearly inspired by his (Lovecraft's) stories" is to overlook that Lovecraft was explicitly hooked into the core of the game prior to publication rather than just as recycled monsters later and a fleeting glimpse in Deities and Demigods. A large chunk of the Mythos was statted out right back at the start and anyone wandering under Greyhawk City when Rob Kuntz was in charge would have needed to be careful, I suspect, far less in any interplanar adventuring (which was certainly not of the Zelazny variety *jk*).
Not at all antithetical IMHO since D&D was not created by EGG alone, although his general humanocentric worldview did win out as the majority expression given in the somewhat skeletal ruleset as first published (minus any campaign world).
Once again, what /didn't/ get published explicitly is at least as important as what did and to say that "many of the game's monsters are clearly inspired by his (Lovecraft's) stories" is to overlook that Lovecraft was explicitly hooked into the core of the game prior to publication rather than just as recycled monsters later and a fleeting glimpse in Deities and Demigods. A large chunk of the Mythos was statted out right back at the start and anyone wandering under Greyhawk City when Rob Kuntz was in charge would have needed to be careful, I suspect, far less in any interplanar adventuring (which was certainly not of the Zelazny variety *jk*).
So it's safe to say that Dejah Thoris founded the cliché of chainmail bikini female protagonists?
I can understand why she is the subject of many a vigorous fanart, and why this sterotype isn't very helpful to attract the female audience. This might make for an interesting article.
To be fair, nearly everyone on Barsoom runs around near-naked, John Carter included. That said, I think it plausible that Burroughs set a modern precedent for scantily-clad protagonists that later fantasy writers followed.Woem said:
Very interesting, I think my bookshelf is going to need an extension now.
It is nice to see these influences, I haven't played D&D since 2nd edition, and then I only really played the basic game. But even from that I could tell it was influenced by Tolkein, but there must have been a lot more.
Books influenced by D&D or Tolkein? Almost everything in Fantasy since.
It is nice to see these influences, I haven't played D&D since 2nd edition, and then I only really played the basic game. But even from that I could tell it was influenced by Tolkein, but there must have been a lot more.
Expand it slightly and the answer is easy:Merrik Waters said:
Books influenced by D&D or Tolkein? Almost everything in Fantasy since.
I remember a really early Dragon Magazine issue that featured a Gygax interview, and he was almost militantly adamant that D&D was not derived from Tolkien. It stuck in my head at the time because I was such a Tolkien freak. I was also thoroughly taken with Moorcock's work, but knew nothing about Burroughs, et. al.. So Gygax did me and many others a favor. Instead of pretending that D&D sprang out of the ether, he acknowledged the influences that led him and Arneson to build D&D.