The death of the fix-it-yourself generation

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

If you so dearly want to drive a car that doesn't require loads technical knowledge and training to fix, you're free to buy an old car.

It's too much to ask for a new, cheap car that has the characteristics of the older generation of cars these days. And there becomes a point where old cars can no longer be fixed up. "Old cars" are rare on the streets here anyway, with models from the 90's being usually the oldest and a good number of those too have computers. There is also a lot of pressure by environmental groups to get all old vehicles off the road despite the fact some were deigned more fuel efficient than current models. I'm not sure if it is still in effect but the government here at one point was offering money for those who would trade in older vehicles for new ones.

And then there's the whole issue of manufactures raising part prices for older models. If you need a very specific part and the junkyard doesn't have it... It's hard to save money that way anymore. Trying to push out that mindset. Why fix it yourself when it is ten times easier to give your problem to someone else?

If there was a model of car, brand new, that was easy to repair by yourself but it did this at the cost of having ABS or air conditioning or having a computer HUD I'd get it if it was affordable. I just don't like having to hand off my problems and money to other people.

 

[Jonluw]

If you so dearly want to drive a car that doesn't require loads technical knowledge and training to fix, you're free to buy an old car.

It's too much to ask for a new, cheap car that has the characteristics of the older generation of cars these days.

Probably, yes. With new demands for fuel efficiency, safety and reliability, why would a company make a car that's less safe, less fuel efficient and lacks all the luxuries that an onboard computer grants. It's because of the computer that you no longer have to take your car to the garage every now and to get it tuned up/synchronized.
Lack of ABS in your car doesn't only concern you, you know. The people around you would also very much prefer it if you rode in a car with ABS.

Edit: 7000 posts. Woo!

 

[SciMal]

Discussion value: What do you think of killing off simplicity or ease of repair in the name of profit?

Yeah, it's part profit and part necessary. Yes, autorepair facilities and dealers would love to have a monopoly on maintenance and repairs (they don't - you can buy the computers servicers use to check for codes and such; and it will just take longer than your dad is use to in order to reach components - dealers and repair shops don't have special tools 99% of the time).

However, at the same time, it's also driven by necessity. The computers control dozens of things, and eventually some jagdick named Keith is going to turn off the computers making the noise instead of fixing them because it'll save him $250. The minute that guy gets on the road his power steering has a mind of its own and his brakes don't respond well. The minute Keith tries to drive in the snow his traction control doesn't work.

Engines are multiple times more complicated these days because they have to meet emissions requirements (which is a GOOD thing), they have to meet efficiency requirements (again, GOOD), and they have to entice buyers who only know how to rank an engine by Horsepower and MPG instead of other things (like average maintenance cost, average repair cost, etc.). So the automanufacturers have to fit more into a smaller engine space.

The same can be said of computers. Look at the iPad. Do you think anybody who's built their own computers over the last 20 years could repair their iPad? The vast majority will simply bring it to the store. It's too compact, the layout is unfamiliar, and - for those who are afraid of it - it voids the warranty.

That's the way things are going. It doesn't necessarily make our society disposable; there's absolutely nothing wrong with the original iPad (or even iPod), but a lot of people succumb to the artificial peer pressure of not having the latest and greatest.

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

If you so dearly want to drive a car that doesn't require loads technical knowledge and training to fix, you're free to buy an old car.

It's too much to ask for a new, cheap car that has the characteristics of the older generation of cars these days.

Probably, yes. With new demands for fuel efficiency, safety and reliability, why would a company make a car that's less safe, less fuel efficient and lacks all the luxuries that an onboard computer grants. It's because of the computer that you no longer have to take your car to the garage every now and to get it tuned up/synchronized.
Lack of ABS in your car doesn't only concern you, you know. The people around you would also very much prefer it if you rode in a car with ABS.

It's called knowing how to brake and my current car, a 2009 model, doesn't have ABS. A good number of cars don't have it as standard. Even in the iciest streets I've managed to avoid collisions. Some ABS drivers get careless, relying on it to save their ass every time.

The point is moot though. The auto industry has bought up all the independent part distributors, destroyed any sense of standardization and is working towards a generation of drivers who won't ever consider trying to fix their cars themselves. The average car owner no longer thinks that fixing their vehicle is worth the effort due to problems mentioned before. Even though there would be a market for less reliable, moderately fuel efficient and simple to repair car for those with lower income... We don't care about those with lower income.

Get a job! What if you live outside of the city? Get a car! How do you get a car without a job? Take a loan. Buying used just means you'll get a problem vehicle that you have to take in to get fixed more regularly, which costs a fortune too. Buying really old and you get rising part prices. It's similar to how there is no more low income housing being built. All the new houses being built here are mansions compared to what there used to be but that's a topic for a different day. The point is inflation is working against those working on the bottom of the totem pole.

 

[Forgetitnow344]

I was about to go off on you in the beginning of your post because I work on my own stuff and I have plenty of friends who do too. Then I finished your post and now I agree with you. Due to a complicated situation, I am forced into a 3-year lease with a 2010 Toyota Corolla. It's a great car and everything, but when I open the hood, all I see is a plastic case. I'm not allowed to take it off myself until after two years or else Toyota won't perform all that free maintenance on it I'm enjoying (tire rotation, full inspection, oil changes, etc). Once that's over and I can work on it again, I have all these fears of not being able to fix things that used to be easy. I changed my starter on my 1987 Camry in less than an hour, and the alternator was on top being held down by literally two bolts. If I look real hard, I can see both of them in hard to reach places... Not looking forward to having to work on it myself. Shops absolutely SCREW you with labor.

 

[Jonluw]

If you so dearly want to drive a car that doesn't require loads technical knowledge and training to fix, you're free to buy an old car.

It's too much to ask for a new, cheap car that has the characteristics of the older generation of cars these days.

Probably, yes. With new demands for fuel efficiency, safety and reliability, why would a company make a car that's less safe, less fuel efficient and lacks all the luxuries that an onboard computer grants. It's because of the computer that you no longer have to take your car to the garage every now and to get it tuned up/synchronized.
Lack of ABS in your car doesn't only concern you, you know. The people around you would also very much prefer it if you rode in a car with ABS.

It's called knowing how to brake and my current car, a 2009 model, doesn't have ABS. A good number of cars don't have it as standard. Even in the iciest streets I've managed to avoid collisions. Some ABS drivers get careless, relying on it to save their ass every time.

Now the question is, would you prefer to rely on all other drivers on the road having learned to brake properly, or would you prefer if they had some sort of backup mechanims to keep them from careening onto the pavement?
Even if a person is trained to brake properly, a stressful situation can make doing so quite difficult.
I'd rather rely on people's abs systems than rely on certain idiot drivers' abilities behind the wheel.

The point is moot though. The auto industry has bought up all the independent part distributors, destroyed any sense of standardization and is working towards a generation of drivers who won't ever consider trying to fix their cars themselves. The average car owner no longer thinks that fixing their vehicle is worth the effort due to problems mentioned before. Even though there would be a market for less reliable, moderately fuel efficient and simple to repair car for those with lower income... We don't care about those with lower income.

Those kinds of cars aren't being offered because we're trying to move forward. Away from that old technology. Those old cars cost about the same as new cars do now when they were new. You didn't see people complaining about the new cars then, demanding that the T-Ford should be brought back into production for people with a lower income.

Society and technology is trying to move forward. A consequence of this is that the technology becomes so advanced that dealing with it requires specialized knowledge.
That is simply the direction in which society moves as it evolves. Higher degrees of specialization. The logical conclusion is that people deal with one engine component each, because each component is incrediby complicated. It is not due to the market attempting to squeeze more money out of the consumers, it's because of progress.

In caveman times, each person could perform practically every function required in their society: Hunt, make fire, find shelter, etc.
As society has evolved, society has become more complicated, and we therefore need people to specialize on different fields. There are more roles to be filled, in other words.
Specialization is a good thing. It's what allows us to create more advanced technology and societies. A neccessary side effect is that it annoys you that roles you used to be able to fill now need to be filled by several people.
It's annoying, I see that. But it's necessary. This happens because of progress, not because of companies trying to keep you from fixing your own car.

 

[Forgetitnow344]

It's called knowing how to brake and my current car, a 2009 model, doesn't have ABS. A good number of cars don't have it as standard. Even in the iciest streets I've managed to avoid collisions. Some ABS drivers get careless, relying on it to save their ass every time.

This is why I think everyone's first car should be a total beater. It needs to be something they can cheaply fix in their driveway and something that has to be driven carefully or else something bad will happen. My first car was an '87 Camry with permanently awful alignment, a stiff-as-shit brake pedal, and a soft-as-shit gas pedal. You had to DRIVE that thing, and I remember no one else really COULD drive it. At least not comfortably. The brake pedal in particular didn't feel like it worked until you drove it for a while. Now that I have a new car, I still drive carefully while feeling every single bump, hum, and lurch my car might make so that I know exactly what to do in case of emergency. It's too dangerous when all a driver has known is "right go fast left go stop."

Get a job! What if you live outside of the city? Get a car! How do you get a car without a job? Take a loan. Buying used just means you'll get a problem vehicle that you have to take in to get fixed more regularly, which costs a fortune too. Buying really old and you get rising part prices. It's similar to how there is no more low income housing being built. All the new houses being built here are mansions compared to what there used to be but that's a topic for a different day. The point is inflation is working against those working on the bottom of the totem pole.

Exactly this. I needed a car to get to work and I needed money to get a car. When my '87 Camry officially took a shit too big for me to flush, I needed something I could get with no money down at an affordable rate. I managed to swing a new 2010 Corolla for $290 a month with nothing down on a lease, and because of how leases work I'm gonna have to refinance it once the lease is up and just buy it. It's not comforting to know I owned my first car when I handed that dude the $1000 on the first day, but I'm going to be paying off this car until I'm probably 27 (I'm 20 now).

 

[Launcelot111]

I put new windshield wiper fluid into my car all by myself just the other day, so who are you to say that DIY is dead?

Seriously though, cars are quickly moving out of the informed amateur's realm of expertise, but I still try to find a solution for most things on my own. My computer is a piece of trash, and I've coaxed it through plenty of problems. I'm decent at carpentry, so I build things to help myself out every once in a while, or I try to solve plumbing problems myself before calling my landlord, though this has mixed results. I respect dedicated DIYers, but paying for quality service and peace of mind has its place as well

 

[Joey Shifflett]

Wait wait wait wait...wait...wait.

Toyota Corona? Does it run on beer?

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

If you so dearly want to drive a car that doesn't require loads technical knowledge and training to fix, you're free to buy an old car.

It's too much to ask for a new, cheap car that has the characteristics of the older generation of cars these days.

Probably, yes. With new demands for fuel efficiency, safety and reliability, why would a company make a car that's less safe, less fuel efficient and lacks all the luxuries that an onboard computer grants. It's because of the computer that you no longer have to take your car to the garage every now and to get it tuned up/synchronized.
Lack of ABS in your car doesn't only concern you, you know. The people around you would also very much prefer it if you rode in a car with ABS.

It's called knowing how to brake and my current car, a 2009 model, doesn't have ABS. A good number of cars don't have it as standard. Even in the iciest streets I've managed to avoid collisions. Some ABS drivers get careless, relying on it to save their ass every time.

Now the question is, would you prefer to rely on all other drivers on the road having learned to brake properly, or would you prefer if they had some sort of backup mechanims to keep them from careening onto the pavement?
Even if a person is trained to brake properly, a stressful situation can make doing so quite difficult.
I'd rather rely on people's abs systems than rely on certain idiot drivers' abilities behind the wheel.

I don't rely on people or technology. Even the best brakes can't save you if an idiot decides to go 30 over the speed limit in a blizzard. I do as my father taught me to do when sitting beside him as a boy and drive as if every other driver will suddenly lose his senses. Defensive driving is my modus operandi.

It's called knowing how to brake and my current car, a 2009 model, doesn't have ABS. A good number of cars don't have it as standard. Even in the iciest streets I've managed to avoid collisions. Some ABS drivers get careless, relying on it to save their ass every time.

This is why I think everyone's first car should be a total beater. It needs to be something they can cheaply fix in their driveway and something that has to be driven carefully or else something bad will happen. My first car was an '87 Camry with permanently awful alignment, a stiff-as-shit brake pedal, and a soft-as-shit gas pedal. You had to DRIVE that thing, and I remember no one else really COULD drive it. At least not comfortably. The brake pedal in particular didn't feel like it worked until you drove it for a while. Now that I have a new car, I still drive carefully while feeling every single bump, hum, and lurch my car might make so that I know exactly what to do in case of emergency. It's too dangerous when all a driver has known is "right go fast left go stop."

My first car was similar. You really had to be used to the brake. It also didn't have power steering and you had to work if you wanted to maneuver that car around. It was good until I just couldn't afford fixing it any more. I kind of wish my Nissan wasn't power steering as you don't feel the road the same way.

 

[HardkorSB]

mhm

So?
It's like being sad that the 20th century was the "death of the farming generation".
Different times, different lifestyles, different skills needed.

 

[Don Savik]

As technology and fields become more specialized, and our population increases, a DIY attitude is just bad for the society.

Think of us becoming less like a gang of 5 gorrilaz that sit around in the jungle and do everything ourselves, and transforming into a colony of a bajillion ants, each with certain roles.

Its the course of all expanding societies.

I would like to solve all my problems but guess what? Car repair doesn't interest a lot of people. ITS BORING. A lot of people would like to make their own food, but guess what? FARMING IS EQUALLY BORING. So if we can designate certain tasks to the individuals that ENJOY IT than everyone can be happy. I see no negative to relying on your fellow man for help. Screw old people and their selfish ways.

 

[Kilyle]

I'd say that there's at least an encouraging counter-point to all of this: Thanks to the Internet, consumers are becoming more aware of their options and more willing to shop around, or even to get the information they need to do something by themselves rather than forking over hard-earned cash for every minor annoyance.

This came to my attention more clearly recently, as I heard more news about the growing market for 3d printers, and some of the copyright/patent principles that apply when you're trying to replace a part for something you already own.

Imagine the day - perhaps sooner than you think - where you'll say "Hmm, my (random appliance) just broke its (random part); well, here's a perfect replacement and it'll print up in about an hour." Our economy is going to change a bit, to say the least. Not that we won't still be a capitalist economy (hooray for that), but a lot of things you've always had to go to a store for will be made in your home, not kludged together but made to factory specs, and without the time, effort, and cost it would take to run a hobbyist machine shop.

It's a fun world we're moving into

 

[Rainforce]

it seems to be one of the products/flaws of our broken capitalism (aka: I-must-win-and-everybody-else-must-die-preferably-horribly - capitalism): the product that is brought by the common customer must preferably:

- be aesthetically pleasing (no matter what the product is actually used for)
- be easy to use (even a moron should be able to use it WITHOUT ANY MANUAL OF SORTS)
- not allow the customer to "break" the product by accident/proper usage in itself and therefore limit the products to "easy to use" features. Generous "dumbing down" as deemed necessary. (see computer operating systems)
- be easy/cheap to produce (cheapest material and cheapest workers)
- have the highest possibly acceptable price (production cost is absolutely negligible)
- have the lowest possibly acceptable quality (together with cheap materials and minimal use thereof)
- must break quickly after expiration of warranty so the customer is forced to buy a new version.
- no repairing whatsoever, neither through service nor by the customer. (repair workers are expensive, as is shipping single parts of a product around the world. it is cheaper to just send a completely new version of the product.)

net win:
more money

net loss:

insane waste of ressources/material. (plus no recycling, of course. See plastic)
unsatisfied customers. (because stuffs break. all the time.)
slow stagnation due to lack of REAL improvement outside of aesthetics. (so customers buy more shiny stuff)
MUCH less money in the long run due to degenerating economy.

in short: almost perfectly optimized to milk more money, while sacrificing everything else, including the base the company is standing on.

*facepalm*

EDIT: I know most people know this - just felt like making a list

 

[Brutal Peanut]

I don't have a car, I walk and ride bikes. However, my husband has a car and thankfully knows enough about cars to do most fixes it seems. He also looks at his cousins cars, and if he can't help them, he has friends who can - that wont screw anyone over. But it's not just about cars, I know people who instead of sewing tears and just re-dying things with at-home kits, they just throw the whole thing away and buy new. Instead of using that old purse or bag that's still good for something else, they toss it out. Instead of keeping plastic containers to store things in or plastic bags for other uses, goes right into the bin. Spend, throw-away, spend, throw-away. Seems so wasteful.

I'm a keep, fix, re-use, recycle kind of person.

 

[One Epic Phail]

I've worked on my own cars before

I only usually take my vehicles to shops for warranty purposes or the lack of time. Dad was a self operator of a big rig, and he always worked on all of his own equipment.

So guess who was taught how to work on cars, trucks, etc?

 

[Jodah]

I wouldn't say do it yourself has died, just changed. It really depends on the item being fixed for most people. Sure, more people take their cars to the garage now to get fixed. But there are also more people who will fix their broken computer at home rather than taking it to the shop.

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

mhm

So?

I'm fragile and I want to be able to feel like I'm self sufficient.