The decline of Japanese games and culture: Need help with a term paper!

Yvl9921

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So I'm taking a communications class and I needed to do a term paper on the topic of some form of media (10 pages) and I decided to do it on what appears to be the creative bankruptcy of Japan, and what's causing it. I'm focusing specifically on games, and my professor assured me there would be tons of material on this subject, and I've been finding fuck all at my school's library.

Does anyone know any "scholarly" sources that discuss this matter, or some good ideas where I can start? I know this is a huge deal, but I doubt my professor will take kindly to me using Extra Credits or Jimquisition as a real source.

Specifically, I'm trying to figure out why all their media has seemed to plummet in quality (to American eyes) over the last 10 years.

Your thoughts and opinions on the issue at hand are welcome, too.
 

Erana

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Well, you've chosen a topic that really isn't going to have many scholarly sources. The idea of creative bankruptcy in Japan is only one of speculation. Not to mention, what literature is available is going to possibly be in Japanese, or even another Western language.
Are you really sure that you want to focus on this topic in particular?
 

Yvl9921

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Apr 4, 2009
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Erana said:
Well, you've chosen a topic that really isn't going to have many scholarly sources. The idea of creative bankruptcy in Japan is only one of speculation. Not to mention, what literature is available is going to possibly be in Japanese, or even another Western language.
Are you really sure that you want to focus on this topic in particular?
It's too late to change my topic.

What I'm focusing on are statements like from Keiji Inafune as he left Capcom, or sales figures (Final Fantasy 13, for example, compared to past games.) I'm not looking for speculative opinions or review scores, though I may end up using those to pad out my paper in the end.

Furthermore, one of the questions I really want to answer is why Japanese games and anime tend to rely so heavily on such similar characters and stories, especially in recent years. It almost feels like there's been a corporate grab of media assets, and that their artistic freedom has been sold off as a result of that. If there's any information verifying or disproving my theory here, I'd be grateful to hear about it.

Karutomaru said:
I think there's no issue at all. Japanese games are ones of quality. They aren't bankrupt for ideas, because the most creative games come from Japan. All of my favorite Wii games and the majority of my gaming library is all Japanese. Madworld is Japanese, Sengoku Basara is Japanese, Viewtiful Joe is Japanese, Jump Ultimate Stars is Japanese to the max, and they all have nothing else like them.
Japan is sure as hell doing a better job at making games than America is. What truly great American games do I have? Black Ops and Modern Warfare 3?... Okay. Debatably House of the Dead Overkill, MAYBE (American devs, Japanese property), maybe the Lego games, Conduit 2, aaaaand that's it. The rest is all Japanese, like Resident Evil, Kingdom Hearts, and licensed shonen fighters (yes, Japan even makes licensed games better than America does.).
Your library is very, very different from most English-speaking people's, and really isn't a good place to start your argument. Just to be clear, I believe that Japan USED TO have majorly superior games, and media in general (think of the anime boom in the late 90s), but that something happened recently to change that.
 

boag

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Yvl9921 said:
Specifically, I'm trying to figure out why all their media has seemed to plummet in quality (to American eyes) over the last 10 years.
1.- Cultural Differences, as games have evolved they have begun to insert a shit ton of cultural references in them, American Gung Ho Speeh Mareen vs Shounen Pretty boy being the most simplistically hyperbolic example.

2.- Budgets, Most of the American Companies are throwing stupidly large budgets at their IPs, while Japanese have kept small production houses, even Squenix and Capcom havent thrown as much money at a project as EA and Activision had (Speculation CITATION NEEDED).

these are the ones I can think would make a good argument, but to get numbers and papers on it, you are going to have to learn moon runes or get someone that knows them to dig into the Japanese side of things.

The Japan Games industry has not slowed down at all, but it has mutated to satisfy the most niche crowds in existence with only a handful of titles even being considered for international markets.

I would point you to places on the net, but I have been out of touch for too long, the most popular English speaking site that deals in Jap media that I know of is Sankaku Complex, so you might want to delve there for a bit, unless you want to go to 4chan and ask there.
 

Beautiful End

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I'd recommend checking Extra Creditz's episode about JRPGs vs. Western RPGs:

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-1

It kinda touches on points that you might be interested on, such as why people in Japan love having a pre-existing character as the hero while Western RPGs are all about creating a character that defines YOU.

Yeah, it's more about games and RPGs in general, but like I said, it might help.
 

Callate

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Beautiful End said:
I'd recommend checking Extra Creditz's episode about JRPGs vs. Western RPGs:

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-1

It kinda touches on points that you might be interested on, such as why people in Japan love having a pre-existing character as the hero while Western RPGs are all about creating a character that defines YOU.

Yeah, it's more about games and RPGs in general, but like I said, it might help.
I was going to cite the same, but I will note there are three episodes on the subject and the third, which I believe is the one addressing why JRPGs as a genre seem to be losing market share to "western" RPGs might be most germane.
 

Yvl9921

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I've seen the Extra Credits episodes, and am trying my damnedest to pass them off as "scholarly sources." Though that does give me an idea of one approach I can take to this, either way (focusing on RPGs instead of games in general).
 

80Maxwell08

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Beautiful End said:
I'd recommend checking Extra Creditz's episode about JRPGs vs. Western RPGs:

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-1

It kinda touches on points that you might be interested on, such as why people in Japan love having a pre-existing character as the hero while Western RPGs are all about creating a character that defines YOU.

Yeah, it's more about games and RPGs in general, but like I said, it might help.
Honestly that series is incredibly bad and I would recommend him staying as far away from using that as possible. Especially since the last episode actually had the stupidity to say menu based combat was worse than other combat. That's like saying platformers are inherently better than strategy games.

OT: Also you really chose a bad topic for your paper. You are just speculating here. Check out Catherine, Zettai Hero Project, the Disgaea series, Persona games, the Tales of games, the Ys series. There are so many games coming out of Japan that no one even notices people say it's dead because of some of Square Enix's and Capcom's games. Atlus and NIS America have plenty of good games out (and some bad ones don't get me wrong) and XSEED brings over plenty of great games as well like the Ys series previously mentioned and The Legend of Heroes game. Speaking of XSEED they also brought over Half-Minute Hero one of my favorite RPGs out right now. Yes Keiji Inaune has talked about the Japanese industry before and has had a lot of bad things to say but it sounded like he was speaking about Capcom alone who have proven themselves to be colossal idiots recently. Honestly the people who say Japanese games are bad just don't even bother looking around.
 

Beautiful End

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80Maxwell08 said:
Beautiful End said:
I'd recommend checking Extra Creditz's episode about JRPGs vs. Western RPGs:

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-1

It kinda touches on points that you might be interested on, such as why people in Japan love having a pre-existing character as the hero while Western RPGs are all about creating a character that defines YOU.

Yeah, it's more about games and RPGs in general, but like I said, it might help.
Honestly that series is incredibly bad and I would recommend him staying as far away from using that as possible. Especially since the last episode actually had the stupidity to say menu based combat was worse than other combat. That's like saying platformers are inherently better than strategy games.

OT: Also you really chose a bad topic for your paper. You are just speculating here. Check out Catherine, Zettai Hero Project, the Disgaea series, Persona games, the Tales of games, the Ys series. There are so many games coming out of Japan that no one even notices people say it's dead because of some of Square Enix's and Capcom's games. Atlus and NIS America have plenty of good games out (and some bad ones don't get me wrong) and XSEED brings over plenty of great games as well like the Ys series previously mentioned and The Legend of Heroes game. Speaking of XSEED they also brought over Half-Minute Hero one of my favorite RPGs out right now. Yes Keiji Inaune has talked about the Japanese industry before and has had a lot of bad things to say but it sounded like he was speaking about Capcom alone who have proven themselves to be colossal idiots recently. Honestly the people who say Japanese games are bad just don't even bother looking around.
About the series being bad is just a matter of opinion. Some people like it and some people don't. I like the series a lot. It's insightful and interesting. I'm not saying its a godsend and stuff, but it's alright. Some people might disagree with me. But hey, to each its own. Same with the idea of Japanese games being better than Western games.
And even if the series is bad, it would be a good idea to check it out anyway if only to get an idea of what they got wrong and where we disagree with them and all. Due to the lack of resources available, it's a start.
 

DrgoFx

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Well, as I've stated before it is rather difficult to say eastern is better than western, but when your "ambassador" to new consumers is Final Fantasy, you've got a big problem in my eyes. I mean, the first couple of games? Spot on. Very good titles. But in recent years? Not so much. As for other titles, a very good example right now is sadly another Square Enix title, Kingdom Hearts. First two? Amazing. Handheld releases? The fuck...? Give us KH3 already.

I would say you should look a lot into fan blogs. Not obsessive ones that praise eastern developers, but you can get a lot of info from communities.
 

80Maxwell08

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Beautiful End said:
80Maxwell08 said:
Beautiful End said:
I'd recommend checking Extra Creditz's episode about JRPGs vs. Western RPGs:

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-1

It kinda touches on points that you might be interested on, such as why people in Japan love having a pre-existing character as the hero while Western RPGs are all about creating a character that defines YOU.

Yeah, it's more about games and RPGs in general, but like I said, it might help.
Honestly that series is incredibly bad and I would recommend him staying as far away from using that as possible. Especially since the last episode actually had the stupidity to say menu based combat was worse than other combat. That's like saying platformers are inherently better than strategy games.

OT: Also you really chose a bad topic for your paper. You are just speculating here. Check out Catherine, Zettai Hero Project, the Disgaea series, Persona games, the Tales of games, the Ys series. There are so many games coming out of Japan that no one even notices people say it's dead because of some of Square Enix's and Capcom's games. Atlus and NIS America have plenty of good games out (and some bad ones don't get me wrong) and XSEED brings over plenty of great games as well like the Ys series previously mentioned and The Legend of Heroes game. Speaking of XSEED they also brought over Half-Minute Hero one of my favorite RPGs out right now. Yes Keiji Inaune has talked about the Japanese industry before and has had a lot of bad things to say but it sounded like he was speaking about Capcom alone who have proven themselves to be colossal idiots recently. Honestly the people who say Japanese games are bad just don't even bother looking around.
About the series being bad is just a matter of opinion. Some people like it and some people don't. I like the series a lot. It's insightful and interesting. I'm not saying its a godsend and stuff, but it's alright. Some people might disagree with me. But hey, to each its own.
And even if the series is bad, it would be a good idea to check it out anyway if only to get an idea of what they got wrong and where we disagree with them and all. Due to the lack of resources available, it's a start.
Except it's not insightful it is factually wrong most of the time. Here's a few articles on someone who rebutted them.
http://radiantfantasia.blogspot.com/2012/03/rebuttal-to-extra-creditz-jrpgs-arent.html
http://radiantfantasia.blogspot.com/2012/03/extra-credits-and-jrpgs-again.html
http://radiantfantasia.blogspot.com/2012/03/responding-to-second-part-of-extra.html
Extra Credits didn't do their research and ended up misinforming a ton of people.
 

Beautiful End

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Yvl9921 said:
I've seen the Extra Credits episodes, and am trying my damnedest to pass them off as "scholarly sources." Though that does give me an idea of one approach I can take to this, either way (focusing on RPGs instead of games in general).
It's a long shot and I don't know when your paper is due, but if you e-mail one of them, they might reply. They're pretty good at answering e-mails and helping people like you.
if not, and now that I think about it, you MIGHT be able to e-mail one of the editors here at the Escapist. They're journalists and reliable sources and I know for a fact they're pretty good at replying e-mails.

Again, they're both long shots but I'd give it a try anyway.
 

RaikuFA

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80Maxwell08 said:
Honestly the people who say Japanese games are bad just don't even bother looking around.
You just insulted about 85% of the American gaming populace. And you are awesome for it.

I mean seriously, have you tried looking at some of these reviewers these days?

WRPG: Save the world = best story ever made
JRPG: Save the world = JRPG cliche would not play again

Ring, ring who's there? Its Pot, he wants to call the kettle black.
 

Beautiful End

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80Maxwell08 said:
Beautiful End said:
80Maxwell08 said:
Beautiful End said:
I'd recommend checking Extra Creditz's episode about JRPGs vs. Western RPGs:

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-1

It kinda touches on points that you might be interested on, such as why people in Japan love having a pre-existing character as the hero while Western RPGs are all about creating a character that defines YOU.

Yeah, it's more about games and RPGs in general, but like I said, it might help.
Honestly that series is incredibly bad and I would recommend him staying as far away from using that as possible. Especially since the last episode actually had the stupidity to say menu based combat was worse than other combat. That's like saying platformers are inherently better than strategy games.

OT: Also you really chose a bad topic for your paper. You are just speculating here. Check out Catherine, Zettai Hero Project, the Disgaea series, Persona games, the Tales of games, the Ys series. There are so many games coming out of Japan that no one even notices people say it's dead because of some of Square Enix's and Capcom's games. Atlus and NIS America have plenty of good games out (and some bad ones don't get me wrong) and XSEED brings over plenty of great games as well like the Ys series previously mentioned and The Legend of Heroes game. Speaking of XSEED they also brought over Half-Minute Hero one of my favorite RPGs out right now. Yes Keiji Inaune has talked about the Japanese industry before and has had a lot of bad things to say but it sounded like he was speaking about Capcom alone who have proven themselves to be colossal idiots recently. Honestly the people who say Japanese games are bad just don't even bother looking around.
About the series being bad is just a matter of opinion. Some people like it and some people don't. I like the series a lot. It's insightful and interesting. I'm not saying its a godsend and stuff, but it's alright. Some people might disagree with me. But hey, to each its own.
And even if the series is bad, it would be a good idea to check it out anyway if only to get an idea of what they got wrong and where we disagree with them and all. Due to the lack of resources available, it's a start.
Except it's not insightful it is factually wrong most of the time. Here's a few articles on someone who rebutted them.
http://radiantfantasia.blogspot.com/2012/03/rebuttal-to-extra-creditz-jrpgs-arent.html
http://radiantfantasia.blogspot.com/2012/03/extra-credits-and-jrpgs-again.html
http://radiantfantasia.blogspot.com/2012/03/responding-to-second-part-of-extra.html
Extra Credits didn't do their research and ended up misinforming a ton of people.
That could be true. But again, I was referring to the series overall. I like the series, but that's neither here nor there. And once again, even if it's a bad series, it's a place to start. Just so he can get into the mood and think about the topic and where they went wrong and stuff.

In fact, we just helped him out a lot by bringing this whole thing up! I brought up Extra Creditz and you just posted a couple of articles regarding that topic. They COULD be used as sources of citation, depending on the teacher.
 

girzwald

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Karutomaru said:
Yvl9921 said:
Erana said:
Well, you've chosen a topic that really isn't going to have many scholarly sources. The idea of creative bankruptcy in Japan is only one of speculation. Not to mention, what literature is available is going to possibly be in Japanese, or even another Western language.
Are you really sure that you want to focus on this topic in particular?
It's too late to change my topic.

What I'm focusing on are statements like from Keiji Inafune as he left Capcom, or sales figures (Final Fantasy 13, for example, compared to past games.) I'm not looking for speculative opinions or review scores, though I may end up using those to pad out my paper in the end.

Furthermore, one of the questions I really want to answer is why Japanese games and anime tend to rely so heavily on such similar characters and stories, especially in recent years. It almost feels like there's been a corporate grab of media assets, and that their artistic freedom has been sold off as a result of that. If there's any information verifying or disproving my theory here, I'd be grateful to hear about it.

Karutomaru said:
I think there's no issue at all. Japanese games are ones of quality. They aren't bankrupt for ideas, because the most creative games come from Japan. All of my favorite Wii games and the majority of my gaming library is all Japanese. Madworld is Japanese, Sengoku Basara is Japanese, Viewtiful Joe is Japanese, Jump Ultimate Stars is Japanese to the max, and they all have nothing else like them.
Japan is sure as hell doing a better job at making games than America is. What truly great American games do I have? Black Ops and Modern Warfare 3?... Okay. Debatably House of the Dead Overkill, MAYBE (American devs, Japanese property), maybe the Lego games, Conduit 2, aaaaand that's it. The rest is all Japanese, like Resident Evil, Kingdom Hearts, and licensed shonen fighters (yes, Japan even makes licensed games better than America does.).
Your library is very, very different from most English-speaking people's, and really isn't a good place to start your argument. Just to be clear, I believe that Japan USED TO have majorly superior games, and media in general (think of the anime boom in the late 90s), but that something happened recently to change that.
Then why do Japanese games still kick ass?
They don't.

JRPG's specifically, too much focus on story, not enough on action or the player doing things. Sure, the parts that the player does might be pretty sweet, but when you enter some town, get 5 minutes of lazy dialogue with still pictures instead of animated characters. Take a few steps, more dialogue. Oh whats this around the corner, MORE DIALOGUE. It ruins the entire experience. If I wanted to watch a movie, Id watch one. At least then I wouldn't have to mash the A button every time I wanted to advance the plot.
 

BNguyen

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Beautiful End said:
I'd recommend checking Extra Creditz's episode about JRPGs vs. Western RPGs:

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-1

It kinda touches on points that you might be interested on, such as why people in Japan love having a pre-existing character as the hero while Western RPGs are all about creating a character that defines YOU.

Yeah, it's more about games and RPGs in general, but like I said, it might help.

I'd have to say that Japanese hero archetypes represent what people should aspire to be while American hero archetypes represent what we are now. Or at least, that's how I view it.
 

80Maxwell08

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girzwald said:
Karutomaru said:
Yvl9921 said:
Erana said:
Well, you've chosen a topic that really isn't going to have many scholarly sources. The idea of creative bankruptcy in Japan is only one of speculation. Not to mention, what literature is available is going to possibly be in Japanese, or even another Western language.
Are you really sure that you want to focus on this topic in particular?
It's too late to change my topic.

What I'm focusing on are statements like from Keiji Inafune as he left Capcom, or sales figures (Final Fantasy 13, for example, compared to past games.) I'm not looking for speculative opinions or review scores, though I may end up using those to pad out my paper in the end.

Furthermore, one of the questions I really want to answer is why Japanese games and anime tend to rely so heavily on such similar characters and stories, especially in recent years. It almost feels like there's been a corporate grab of media assets, and that their artistic freedom has been sold off as a result of that. If there's any information verifying or disproving my theory here, I'd be grateful to hear about it.

Karutomaru said:
I think there's no issue at all. Japanese games are ones of quality. They aren't bankrupt for ideas, because the most creative games come from Japan. All of my favorite Wii games and the majority of my gaming library is all Japanese. Madworld is Japanese, Sengoku Basara is Japanese, Viewtiful Joe is Japanese, Jump Ultimate Stars is Japanese to the max, and they all have nothing else like them.
Japan is sure as hell doing a better job at making games than America is. What truly great American games do I have? Black Ops and Modern Warfare 3?... Okay. Debatably House of the Dead Overkill, MAYBE (American devs, Japanese property), maybe the Lego games, Conduit 2, aaaaand that's it. The rest is all Japanese, like Resident Evil, Kingdom Hearts, and licensed shonen fighters (yes, Japan even makes licensed games better than America does.).
Your library is very, very different from most English-speaking people's, and really isn't a good place to start your argument. Just to be clear, I believe that Japan USED TO have majorly superior games, and media in general (think of the anime boom in the late 90s), but that something happened recently to change that.
Then why do Japanese games still kick ass?
They don't.

JRPG's specifically, too much focus on story, not enough on action or the player doing things. Sure, the parts that the player does might be pretty sweet, but when you enter some town, get 5 minutes of lazy dialogue with still pictures instead of animated characters. Take a few steps, more dialogue. Oh whats this around the corner, MORE DIALOGUE. It ruins the entire experience. If I wanted to watch a movie, Id watch one. At least then I wouldn't have to mash the A button every time I wanted to advance the plot.
I repeat my statement of looking around more. Ys series, Half-Minute Hero, Tales of games, Disgaea series, Dark Souls, and Zettai Hero Project to list off just the ones I have played. There's plenty of games from Japan that don't do what you say they do.
 

josemlopes

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Karutomaru said:
I think there's no issue at all. Japanese games are ones of quality. They aren't bankrupt for ideas, because the most creative games come from Japan. All of my favorite Wii games and the majority of my gaming library is all Japanese. Madworld is Japanese, Sengoku Basara is Japanese, Viewtiful Joe is Japanese, Jump Ultimate Stars is Japanese to the max, and they all have nothing else like them.
Japan is sure as hell doing a better job at making games than America is. What truly great American games do I have? Black Ops and Modern Warfare 3?... Okay. Debatably House of the Dead Overkill, MAYBE (American devs, Japanese property), maybe the Lego games, Conduit 2, aaaaand that's it. The rest is all Japanese, like Resident Evil, Kingdom Hearts, and licensed shonen fighters (yes, Japan even makes licensed games better than America does.).
If the "best" "american" games that you have are Call of Duty games then you are not the best person to discuss what side is doing better. Its like me saying that I have a shitload of good "western" games (that is the correct term) and then say that since I only have FFXIII Japan doesnt have anything better to offer.

There are a lot of good games on both sides and there are a lot of terrible ones too.