- May 22, 2010
Now you're just being pedantic. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregationDevoneaux said:I want you to take notice of how he says the game play and narrative are acting against each other, and does not say that they are segregated. Fine, i'll concede the point of Ludonarrative referring to the story as a whole, yet to imply that it is the same thing as Game/story segregation is still false.Owyn_Merrilin said:Dude, four paragraphs in:Devoneaux said:Here you goOwyn_Merrilin said:Citation? "ludonarrative" literally means "gamestory," not "gametheme." Something tells me that after all the time you spent defending the term, it's confusing enough that you don't fully understand it yourself.Devoneaux said:Ludonarrative dissonance refers to a clash of theme and gameplay, not plot and gameplay. The theme is not the plot.Owyn_Merrilin said:Are you messing with me, or what? That's the textbook example. In the gameplay, a phoenix down will revive anyone after death. But because the story demands it, it doesn't work when a certain character dies in a cutscene. Hence, ludonarrative dissonance: the ludonarrative and the regular narrative clash.Devoneaux said:Actually not using the phoenix down is closer to a contrivance than it is gameplay/story segregation, and certainly doesn't quality as ludonarrative dissonance.Owyn_Merrilin said:Because Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness is intentionally wordy to get the point across that people who exhibit the trait are being overly wordy. And no, what I described is not a misuse of the term "gameplay and story segregation." It is the intended use. The classic example is how you can't use a Phoenix Down to save Aeris. You'll note that that's also the classic example of ludonarrative dissonance, because they're the same concept.Devoneaux said:people misusing it has nothing to do with it's intended purpose. If you see someone use it this way, calmly explain it to them that they are misusing it, and what it actually means.Owyn_Merrilin said:Except that's not how the term is actually used.
It does now, thanks to the magic of Google, you know that thing that lets people learn more about ideas, words, or concepts that they aren't familiar with?It's the "ludonarrative" part that I take issue with. Does the phrase "sesquipedalian loquaciousness" mean anything to you?
Edit: Also if you can use "sesquipedalian loquaciousness" in your argument and still get your intended meaning across, then why not "Ludonarrative"?
This is the guy who first came up with the term. I warn you, the post is quite long, you'll likely be spending some time reading, assuming you really care about being right at this point.
Note that he said story? Also note that "narrative" is closer to a synonym for "story" than it is "theme[footnote]It effectively does mean story, but with the connotation of one told in a linear manner.[/footnote]." If he had wanted to coin a term specifically about themes, he probably would have gone with something like "ludothematic dissonance," not "ludonarrative dissonance."To cut straight to the heart of it, Bioshock seems to suffer from a powerful dissonance between what it is about as a game, and what it is about as a story. By throwing the narrative and ludic elements of the work into opposition, the game seems to openly mock the player for having believed in the fiction of the game at all. The leveraging of the game?s narrative structure against its ludic structure all but destroys the player?s ability to feel connected to either, forcing the player to either abandon the game in protest (which I almost did) or simply accept that the game cannot be enjoyed as both a game and a story, and to then finish it for the mere sake of finishing it.
^There's one of the older definitions of the phrase, although it wouldn't surprise me if it existed before TVTropes made the article about it. I know the article existed before the term "ludonarrative dissonance" did.