The ease with which people are fooled (A Lion King/Kimba topic)

Specter Von Baren

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So some of you may have heard before of a controversy involving the Lion King and its ripping off of Kimba the White Lion, by Osamu Tezuka. Now for my part, I was never sure about what was going on with this as I had zero context of Kimba's content but my tentative opinion based on what I had seen was that The Lion King may have ripped off visuals from Kimba but that the actual story was not. But recently an extensive video going into very VERY deep detail on what the content of Kimba actually is has come out.


And I can't help but feel like laughing maniacally over this. Repeat a lie enough and people will believe it. In this age of the internet, with so much information at our finger tips, we STILL can't be bothered to do anything but parrot what we've heard someone else say, even if it's all vague.

Edit: As has been requested, I am going to put a summary of the video here.

First, the main through line of what is trying to be done with this video is how just because something looks similar to something else, doesn't mean that someone plagiarized someone else. Just because something is similar when reduced to its based components doesn't mean it that they are not very different in execution. The main strength of this video is not a single smoking gun example but a constant stream of fact after fact after fact. That there is so much evidence that proves that Lion King is only similar to Kimba at its most basic level that is makes it baffling and somewhat horrifying that it took this long for a major personality to show this.(I say this because SHINOBI-03 actually also made a video pointing out some of these facts but it is poorer quality and never got much attention)


The shots that people use as comparisons of plagiarism are edited to remove all context from the scenes that show them to have nothing in common with scenes from Lion King. Lots of the most similar looking shots come from a movie made AFTER 'The Lion King' came out, meaning that the people who made that movie are much more likely ripping off Lion King.

Characters are compared between each other as if they are 1 to 1 the same when they aren't. Kimba has a parrot friend, Poly who is like a Scrappy Doo character that always wants to fight people yet because he's friends with a larger, less intelligent animal, this makes Timon a complete rip off of him. At the same time Zazu is also somehow a rip off of him despite their only similarities being that they are birds. These kinds of comparisons have been made of lots of characters from the entire history of the Kimba IP and are cherry picked from, as YMS says, over 3000 minutes of Kimba content.

A main talking point throughout the video is about how it's essentially impossible for The Lion King to have NOT had images and characters similar to Kimba since they both take place on the same continent and involve animals found on that continent. Kimba is also a very episodic series with very little, if any, continuity being carried from one episode to the next, it is nothing like the overarching plot of The Lion King and by virtue of being episodic the stories and characters in it are incredibly varied which makes it even harder for anything with the same setting and basic premise to NOT somehow look similar.

There have been official books that have talked about this as if this controversy is true despite it very clearly being not when some actual research is done. Not even Tezuka's son believes it and he's on record saying he's appalled by how his father's work has been turned into a weapon for people to use to attack a corporation, a corporation that you don't need lies to point out the bad things it does.

Near the end of the video he even shows many MANY panels from a comic about a lion named Simba from before even Kimba was made that is just as easy to make comparisons with as if Kimba ripped it off. That's how easy it is for something like this to happen.

This is the biggest pie in the face I've ever seen over something like this. The way so many people bought into this and made videos speaking this controversy as truth while NEVER actually watching the series they were defending is awful. This is the age of the internet, non of this information was being held secret or anything, just how lazy ARE we as a species that it took this long to debunk this?
 
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BrawlMan

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So some of you may have heard before of a controversy involving the Lion King and its ripping off of Kimba the White Lion, by Osamu Tezuka. Now for my part, I was never sure about what was going on with this as I had zero context of Kimba's content but my tentative opinion based on what I had seen was that The Lion King may have ripped off visuals from Kimba but that the actual story was not. But recently an extensive video going into very VERY deep detail on what the content of Kimba actually is has come out.


And I can't help but feel like laughing maniacally over this. Repeat a lie enough and people will believe it. In this age of the internet, with so much information at our finger tips, we STILL can't be bothered to do anything but parrot what we've heard someone else say, even if it's all vague.
I hate YMS. Never saw the appeal of another loud jackass. Especially when it keeps appearing in my YT feed. I am aware of the whole, Kimba/LK controversy and I honestly don't care. Both movies are good regardless.
 

Specter Von Baren

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I hate YMS. Never saw the appeal of another loud jackass. Especially when it keeps appearing in my YT feed. I am aware of the whole, Kimba/LK controversy and I honestly don't care. Both movies are good regardless.
The fact that you think Kimba is a movie makes you just as much part of the problem as anyone else. I don't watch YMS, I don't know anything about this guy, I just saw this video in my recommended side bar and remembered it was mentioned on EFAP a ways back and decided to watch it. I very much encourage you to watch it, even if it's only the first 20 minutes of it. There is no real controversy, it is all manufactured from the misinformed and complacent.
 

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I have never really understood the attraction of wanting to have others form opinions for me. I usually don't have an opinion until I have analyzed data for myself in the fist place, and when I hear people ranting about things like this, I usually think, WHY would they care one way or the other?!? The other issue people often overlook entirely is that humans are perfectly capable of thinking the exact same thing or similar completely separate than one another without ever having seen the other's work at all. I oppose most plagiarism and copyright laws as it is because eventually, everything we think up individually could already be copyrighted to someone else and it amounts to nothing more in the end than idea policing. I realized how easy it is for people to have the exact same thoughts when I had written a poem in high school, and then a few years later, a band I listened to then came out with a new song where like three or 4 verses were identical and this was not some generic love poem or something, it was actually a bit technical and weird so It was all pretty strange at the time. The point is no matter how unique, personal, and detailed we might think our own thoughts and works are, there is always the possibility someone else out there has thought the same thing. I do not think that simply because things look like it copied, inspired or influenced another work, that does not mean it actually did regardless of who managed to obtain credit or renown first.

On the topic of people manufacturing controversies like this, what I am most annoyed with is, why does anyone watch this nonsense in the first place, let alone allow it to shape their opinions for them??? I just do not understand the entertainment value in that instead of just ignoring it because it isn't worth anyone's time in the first place.
 
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SupahEwok

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So some of you may have heard before of a controversy involving the Lion King and its ripping off of Kimba the White Lion, by Osamu Tezuka. Now for my part, I was never sure about what was going on with this as I had zero context of Kimba's content but my tentative opinion based on what I had seen was that The Lion King may have ripped off visuals from Kimba but that the actual story was not. But recently an extensive video going into very VERY deep detail on what the content of Kimba actually is has come out.


And I can't help but feel like laughing maniacally over this. Repeat a lie enough and people will believe it. In this age of the internet, with so much information at our finger tips, we STILL can't be bothered to do anything but parrot what we've heard someone else say, even if it's all vague.
I don't like videos. Can't you include a brief summary? It's annoying to have threads that just say "watch vid, laugh at stupid sheeple". Limits discussion value. I can't tell if you're calling people dumb for not realizing Lion King was a rip-off, or if you're calling people dumb for believing Lion King was a rip-off based on hearsay.

That said, most Dinsey animated movies were based on older stories, most of which were comfortably in the open domain so royalties wouldn't have to be paid. Fairy tales, folklore, children's stories. Even Bambi and Mulan were based on existing stories. Even the Black Cauldron, which nobody even remembers. The only Disney (non-Pixar) animated movie I can think of which wasn't based off of an existing work is Pocahontas.
 

Fat Hippo

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I don't like videos. Can't you include a brief summary? It's annoying to have threads that just say "watch vid, laugh at stupid sheeple". Limits discussion value. I can't tell if you're calling people dumb for not realizing Lion King was a rip-off, or if you're calling people dumb for believing Lion King was a rip-off based on hearsay.

That said, most Dinsey animated movies were based on older stories, most of which were comfortably in the open domain so royalties wouldn't have to be paid. Fairy tales, folklore, children's stories. Even Bambi and Mulan were based on existing stories. Even the Black Cauldron, which nobody even remembers. The only Disney (non-Pixar) animated movie I can think of which wasn't based off of an existing work is Pocahontas.
And even Pocahontas was based on a "real story" though it got the ever-loving crap kitsched out of it, much like the fairy tales did.

Personally, I don't especially care whether Lion King was based on some older Japanese anime or not. I mostly trot out the old "it ripped off Kimba" line to peeve people (well, one specific person) so if it isn't true, that just makes it better.
 

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Personally, I don't especially care whether Lion King was based on some older Japanese anime or not. I mostly trot out the old "it ripped off Kimba" line to peeve people (well, one specific person) so if it isn't true, that just makes it better.
This is a bit off-topic, but on the subject of X ripping off Y, I think we should care about these things, because we have to ask, is the claim true?

For instance, go on the Internet, and you'll see claims that StarCraft ripped off Warhammer 40,000, and that it was going to be a W40K game itself at some point. We can debate how much the former is true (partially, sure), but the latter is flat out wrong (StarCraft was originally going to be a Star Wars game, among other things). But lots of people still believe it. It's a falsehood that's become ingrained.

Or, to cite an example where this thing has actual consequences, take 'Blood Heir,' a fantasy novel. Through what was mainly a Twitter mob, this book was panned before release for, among other things:

-Claims of plagarism (the claim that the book had plagarized Lord of the Rings)

-That its depiction of slavery was inappropriate in the context of the United States, where the author resided, and was offensive

-That the protagonist was black, adding to the problems of the second point

Fine and dandy, except the problem with these claims is that:

-The book uses the line "don't go where I can't follow" - one line taken from LotR is hardly a case for wholesale plagarism

-The book's depiction of slavery was written to reflect modern day slavery in Asia (and also has Slavic conotations)

-The protagonist's ethnicity is never specified, but is said to have bronze skin and blue eyes

The good news is that the book was eventually published, so the author got to have her first book published, and get good reception to it (least from what I can tell on Amazon). But it was delayed over the furor that was based on misinformation, ignorance (one claim from one of the 'reviewers' was that slavery only existed in the US, so that any depiction of slavery in a supposedly Russian context was ahistorical), and good old fashioned spite. No work is above criticism, but at least have the courtesy to make the criticism informed.

So to tie this in, I think whether Lion King ripped off Kimba does matter, because while both films were released ages ago, I think we owe it to ourselves and the creators to arrive at the truth. Like, when people have put stuff I've written on YouTube, my reaction is "go for it, as long as you give me credit." When people have gone ahead and done it anyway, I have been a bit pissed.
 

Specter Von Baren

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I don't like videos. Can't you include a brief summary? It's annoying to have threads that just say "watch vid, laugh at stupid sheeple". Limits discussion value. I can't tell if you're calling people dumb for not realizing Lion King was a rip-off, or if you're calling people dumb for believing Lion King was a rip-off based on hearsay.

That said, most Dinsey animated movies were based on older stories, most of which were comfortably in the open domain so royalties wouldn't have to be paid. Fairy tales, folklore, children's stories. Even Bambi and Mulan were based on existing stories. Even the Black Cauldron, which nobody even remembers. The only Disney (non-Pixar) animated movie I can think of which wasn't based off of an existing work is Pocahontas.
No, I cannot include a brief summary of the video because the strength of it is the sheer weight of the amount of evidence it has. I can include a summary but it will not be brief and will need to wait for when I get home.
 

SupahEwok

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Almost 2 1/2 hours?
More research has been conducted on making this one video than has been done on every other video that claimed Lion King ripped off Kimba combined.
Oh, fuck that, man. I don't like watching videos in the first place, I ain't watching a movie on whether or not The Mouse ripped off something for a movie when they rip off for all their movies.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Oh, fuck that, man. I don't like watching videos in the first place, I ain't watching a movie on whether or not The Mouse ripped off something for a movie when they rip off for all their movies.
It's responses like this that make me wonder what exactly people want. A video is made going against a widely held idea, if the video summarizes then it will be dismissed as not having enough information and a person will default to the rhetoric with more people behind it. If someone brings in a wealth of information to support their case because anything less will be dismissed, then they're trying too hard and "no one wants to watch something long". It makes me question what the point of discussion is in the first place. There's no winning.
 

happyninja42

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It's responses like this that make me wonder what exactly people want.
Well in the context of this topic specifically, what they don't want, is a video that is the equivalent of feature length film, about 2 other films or shows, talking about whatever overly exaggerated details were brought up in the first place. Apparently they don't care enough about the source material, or if it was copied, to spend 2.5 hours listening about it. I know I sure as hell don't, because I don't give a shit about Lion King, and I certainly don't give a shit about another film/show that it supposedly ripped off. As Phil Collins so eloquently put it. I've got better things to do with my time. Like go watch a film that I actually like.

I have never really understood the attraction of wanting to have others form opinions for me.
It's not about wanting them to form an opinion for me, it's about having someone provide information about a topic, and then formulating your own. The fact that I watch a video where a guy says X, doesn't mean I will automatically agree with him about X. But if he is at least giving data points, and saying stuff like "This thing was like this, this thing was like that." Then I can decide if I like something or not. For example, most of the reviewers that I usually watch, where I do value their opinion on something, is because I've heard them explain why they do/don't like something, and found their points to be similar to my own. Like they talk about a movie I have already seen, and describe the points that they didn't like, and I'm like "Yeah, that was something that annoyed me about that film." And then they follow it with "But I did like this thing over here, I thought that was well done." and I also agree with that point. Then I will tentatively listen to that person's opinion on things like entertainment, because it's been established that we have similar tastes. It doesn't mean I agree with every point or opinion they have, but if we seem to be in synch like 80% of the time, why not take their opinion under advisement?
 

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No, I cannot include a brief summary of the video because the strength of it is the sheer weight of the amount of evidence it has. I can include a summary but it will not be brief and will need to wait for when I get home.
Yes you can. You aren't going to encapsulate all the nuance or points of it, but you can certainly give a brief summary to tell people what the gist of it is. In fact, you can do it in a few sentences. Observe:

I'm sure many of us are familiar with the claim that The Lion King ripped off Kimba the White Lion. I just saw a video from YMS on the subject, which weighed the merits of that claim. To make a long story short, the gist of it is that [thrust of the video]. Notably, it points out [example from video], and [example from video]. If you're into that kind of thing, it's worth a gander, but fair warning, it is longer than most feature films.

Et voila. A quick and easy summary template.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Well in the context of this topic specifically, what they don't want, is a video that is the equivalent of feature length film, about 2 other films or shows, talking about whatever overly exaggerated details were brought up in the first place. Apparently they don't care enough about the source material, or if it was copied, to spend 2.5 hours listening about it. I know I sure as hell don't, because I don't give a shit about Lion King, and I certainly don't give a shit about another film/show that it supposedly ripped off. As Phil Collins so eloquently put it. I've got better things to do with my time. Like go watch a film that I actually like.
Yeah, you're right, I see that now. I was being unfair to everyone. I should have provided some kind of summary in my OP.

Yes you can. You aren't going to encapsulate all the nuance or points of it, but you can certainly give a brief summary to tell people what the gist of it is. In fact, you can do it in a few sentences. Observe:

I'm sure many of us are familiar with the claim that The Lion King ripped off Kimba the White Lion. I just saw a video from YMS on the subject, which weighed the merits of that claim. To make a long story short, the gist of it is that [thrust of the video]. Notably, it points out [example from video], and [example from video]. If you're into that kind of thing, it's worth a gander, but fair warning, it is longer than most feature films.

Et voila. A quick and easy summary template.
Oh I intend to make a summary, sorry that I garbled my meaning. My train of thought was that this video isn't about a smoking gun, a single piece of evidence that reveals the truth or anything but rather goes over multiple different kinds of details and I feel that even by me summarizing it, the summary can't be too brief. Once I get home from work I'll make one and edit it into the OP.