The Escapist Community is a tad too toxic

[Erttheking]

I still remember the thread where people talked about a city where children weren't allowed. We always had hatred. It's just being directed at each other rather than an outside force now. Gamers were never friendly, it's just that the people we hated happened to be outside our social circle. Now the people we hate are inside our social circle. We were always hateful and toxic. It just finally showed in a way we can't ignore or justify.

 

[Creator002]

Conflicts on this site used to be funny. When was the last time we had a quality troll? What happened to all the playful teasing?

We're apparently not allowed to have fun anymore

Well, as you probably already know, being a troll and calling someone a troll are not permitted by the rules.
Personally, I find that offensive. I am a fair dinkum Swamp Troll and can't tell anyone.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

And I know we both remember the `Would you hit a woman if she hit you first threads`- where people would come from far and wide to explain in detail how they would theoretically beat the crap out of this theoretical woman if she theoretically dared to raise and hand to them first. Theoretically of course.

I think the people from those threads might have migrated to somewhere else

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Just kinda watching the same arguments in a thread about the overabundance of arguments and toxicity.

It's neat that I completely expected this to happen. Because why wouldn't it, really?

 

[Azure23]

"Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad comic, but not a brilliant one either, it's just a pretty generic start of a superhero (not unlike the first Spider Man film), done about a million times with the added twist of having an islamic character and a better writing than usual.
I'm not an avid comic book fan but even Deadpool had a more interesting and memorable story arc with his daughter. It just seems to me it got an award for "diversity" rather than actual merits which makes me wonder what the fuck happened to our culture."

-The thread OP in question, just to remind everyone that this is the supposedly discussion worthy post. The thread's title and the OP specifically reference Ms. Marvel and nowhere did Inu give any indication that this was intended to lead to a wider discussion about the Hugo's. For all purposes (and probably intent too, being familiar with Inu's post history) this thread was created to complain about a perceived "quota win." It's also worth noting that in a later post Inu admits to having little knowledge of the Hugo's and the voting and nomination system. What we had in that thread was someone arguing a flimsy point from an uninformed opinion, a lot of people rightly pointed that out, that is not a thread going to shit or being toxic. We also had a lot of great discussion on the relative merits of the voting system and a whole lot of people discussing classic sci fi.

It's probably not really kosher to quote someone from a different thread without actually "quoting" them, but hey I'm on mobile and it's being difficult so copy and paste is good enough. Maybe I'll send Inu a message or something so they can respond if they want.

 

[Therumancer]

So, I've been coming to the escapist site since back in '09 and I've noticed that the community has been becoming progressively more uppity and hostile over the years. I've encountered insults and snarky comments in many of my own posts but lately I've been seeing it throughout most forums. Take for example

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.881615-Ms-Marvel-Vol-1-won-Hugo-award-really

A thread in which the OP made a comment about Ms.Marvel Vol. 1 winning the Hugo award. I clicked on the thread because I read Ms. Marvel and while I like the book it should not have beaten (opinion) its competition for the Hugo award. Instead of a discussion about the merits and faults of the comic everyone latched on to the last sentence of the OP's remark about why he/she thought Ms.Marvel won. Half of the commentors clearly hadn't even read Ms.Marvel, yet felt compelled to be the loudest ones in the room. The whole discussion dissolved into a series of quips about diversity instead of a discussion about Ms.Marvel.

I find that to be the source of the toxicity. An OP posing a question, or making a statement, and the majority of posters latching onto one sentence that they personally take issue with. They ignore the rest of the OP, or more often the main point, in order to focus on something irrelevant to the discussion as a whole. I could find more examples but your already on the site. Just look around.

The site has been toxic for quite a while now, it's pretty much slanted hugely towards the left wing and SJWs and simply put it's been nearly impossible to balance it out. The result has been a decline of the site over the years, and honestly right now "The Escapist" is a shadow of what it was in the past. I don't envy the people trying to put it back together. It seems there is less content, and less posts on what articles and content are provided, and the forums are indeed a lot slower. Excepting some people with a high tolerance like me, few people want to post anything that is going to get a dissenting opinion here due to the gang banging they will receive by people all telling each other how "well, he'd do better if what he was saying wasn't so weak" of course while having ignored or used equally biased sources to refute any points that might have been made.

When it comes to the Hugo situation, I was just reading a post here about the state of the Hugo awards and recent attempts to overcome liberal domination and how they almost ripped the awards apart. Needless to say a liberal darling character not deserving a Hugo isn't going to go over well here, and of course the very point that your making is something that caused conservative science fiction creators to try and counter the liberal bias to begin with, since their entire point was that so much stuff was getting awards due to the idealogy it or it's creators espoused, not due
to the quality of the work.

Right now The Escapist has a problem where in order to attract more users it needs to deal with it's SJW problem, however the SJWs have driven nearly everyone else off or gotten them banned, newcomers who aren't SJWs run into the problem your describing and don't think it's worth fighting so they leave. Without a stronger, more diverse, user base it becomes harder to get quality content. I don't envy the Escapist management at the moment. I to remember the site when it had a more politically/socially balanced user base and things weren't as toxic, and there was tons of content including things like "Doomsday Arcade", "There Will Be Brawl", "Drawn By Pain", etc... all in addition to Zero Punctuation which might have been the draw but the site had other stuff as well, today it's almost empty. I'd like to think the talented people are out there, and they could be brought here if the population could be rebuilt. Sadly I do not see how that can be made to happen.

At any rate some of the responses your getting aren't surprising, bringing things like this up to the community responsible is not going to end well. Nobody sees themselves as the bad guy or the problem so to speak.

 

[RanD00M]

Ironically the various attempts to be more inclusive have only driven people further apart.

What attempts were made to be more inclusive?

When the rules were changed to the very non-defined "don't be a jerk"

Snip

You may think the it's getting more toxic, while I think it's been becoming increasingly bad. Then again in my honest opinion the Escapist as a whole started to decline in quality when Russ Pitts left.

 

[Lightknight]

If so: We've always had ten-page long fights all over the internet on any number of things. Them existing with regularity is not new.

If not: You should already know that we've always had ten-page long fights all over the internet on any number of things with regularity.

Certainly works for discussions of AdBlock.

I'm not sure how this comment is a relevant response to my basic sentiment that we've always had 10-page long "fights" but that are usually spread out across multiple threads and topics but now things like GamerGate have consolidated some more controversial themes into one place which ends up amalgamating what would have otherwise been more separate discussions albeit still existent. Whackamoling (if you'll allow my abuse of language) GamerGate would just fragment the points again and leave us no where new.

Keep in mind that the only reason GG is so big is because of the epic Streisand Effect in place here. From people refusing to talk about it earlier and even banning people who did (textbook streisand effect), to people dismissing valid arguments being made while attacking the arguments or positions that were easy to knock down which only furthers the effect where it then feels like the legitimate arguments are being swept under the rug.

So you are quite correct when you express a note of amplification on these issues. They have been amplified but also not necessarily just due to the individuals on the GG or anti-GG side. So it's important to remember that this is a normal human response to censorious efforts rather than some sort of special "toxicity" scenario.

What's more is people disagreeing or complaining about something isn't toxicity.

Never asserted that disgreement was toxicity. What is toxicity though is, for the lack of a better word, being an asshole, which happened quite a bit during GamerGate's early days. Lot of people got banned, if you recall. Then many of the people who got ban committing ban-jumping to be dicks even further (which has continued with certainly as much as up to two or three weeks ago) would also qualify as toxicity. Going to the Mod Group and people crying about how somebody they don't like isn't banned in public view for everyone to see is also something I'd consider toxic, which is still happening.

By "people" I didn't mean "you". This was a general comment. People think that heated debate means toxicity when it really just means passion. Did people go overboard? Hell freaking yeah they did. But that has largely gone away even though the threads are still generated today.

As for complaining about people they don't like getting not getting banned? Having modded other sites before that's something people do all the time too. But as long as there are stable rules in place, and there are, then any individual will have to break rules before they get modded.

If it bothers you then don't participate in them but they have every right to their discourse and them being able to talk about things they want to is the same thing you're able to do.

I never said it should be banned, I just said that it would work pretty well for The Escapist. Works well enough for AdBlock, after all.[/quote] I didn't say you said it "Should". I was objecting to your implication that it would be a "good" action. There are all kinds of arguments people have had over time. Feminism has also had its moments of toxicity and pages of arguments. Should we have considered banning their discussions because it led to contempt sometimes?

It is disingenuous to try and set up a system that arbitrates which "cause" is worth leaving and which cause is worth censoring. That can lead to tremendous problems down the road and could easily lead to a "first they came for..." scenario on a matter that really deserves attention but is wildly controversial or heated.

So by your logic, any particularly inflammatory discussions should be censored and that just isn't reasonable.

 

[Zen Bard]

"This forum has become more toxic!"

Five pages of venom ensue.

If ever there was a great set up for predictable results, it's this.

Actually, these responses have been fairly measured considering the topic.

There's a certain amount of hostility to be expected on any internet forum due to Invisible Man Syndrome where any one can spout off with complete anonymity.

But yeah, civil discourse seems to have taken a back seat to entitled hostility lately.

Then again, when threads routinely pop up asking if it's okay to walk away in the middle of a conversation or to tell people not to talk to them or kick them in the shins when they say "mint julep", the bar for social graces is set kind of low.

 

[IceForce]

Right now The Escapist has a problem where in order to attract more users it needs to deal with it's SJW problem,

I'm curious, how do you recommend The Escapist should "deal with its SJW problem" without 'censoring' anybody?

Because in another thread, you said:

Spoiler

I have mixed opinions about the situation that sparked Gamersgate, I'm far more interest in the liberal media bias throughout gamerdom that it uncovered, as well as the media control being exerted by left wing elements including mass bans and such to crush dissenting opinions and keep them out of platforms where they could represent a serious challenge.

So if you're suggesting Escapist's 'SJWs' be mass-banned or anything similar, that would equal armageddon levels of hypocrisy.

however the SJWs have driven nearly everyone else off or gotten them banned, newcomers who aren't SJWs run into the problem your describing and don't think it's worth fighting so they leave.

How can 'SJWs' "get people banned"? I mean, unless you're calling the moderators 'SJWs', that is...

 

[Superlative]

Isn't in ironic that a post about how toxic these forums are getting turns into the GG and Anit-GG tribes fighting and throwing toxicity at each other.

A part of me thinks the issue is that the mods have been too nice. Maybe bringing up GG stuff outside of there designated area should get the post deleted and the poster issued a warning. perhaps making sure that topics from said area can't show up on the front page would keep people from popping in, seeing the crap show, and then fleeing before they get sucked in.

Would the forums be worse for wear if they contained those two tribes better and started kicking people who constantly brought that mess up outside of Industry Discussion?

 

[Strazdas]

Call it censorship or the like, but you have to admit, if topics that were about or related to GamerGate were banned entirely, we wouldn't have ten-page long fights cropping up every 24 hours and if people wanted to discuss it they'd go elsewhere. I don't necessarily approve, but it'd do more to depolarize the site than allowing it.

It wouldnt. While gamergate is the topic at hand for most of those, the reason the fights are cropping up is because of fundamental disagreements at basic levels. Gamergate is merely a symptom, not the source. The only way to stop those fights is to get rid of either of the two sides - to turn this into a hugbox. I think we will disagree on which one needs to be removed though.

I dunno, man, I remember such riveting threads as `Can you turn a whore into a housewife` which were totally acceptable back in the day

I'll always remember the classic "Should women be allowed to get breast implants?"

We need to protect them from their vain selves. XD

Ech, there were serious threads about eugenics, breast implants pale in comparison.

Its funny to see how much changes in so little time.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.207199-Escapist-forums-are-best-but-why?page=2#7021981
This post was only 5 years ago and has takes that are alot different than are listed here. It's quite interesting.

I do remember it beinga bit more open to dissenting opinions and hard language before though.

Well thats quite something. I have seen a deterioration of basically everything people list in that thread.

 

[Therumancer]

Right now The Escapist has a problem where in order to attract more users it needs to deal with it's SJW problem,

I'm curious, how do you recommend The Escapist should "deal with its SJW problem" without 'censoring' anybody?

Because in another thread, you said:

Spoiler

I have mixed opinions about the situation that sparked Gamersgate, I'm far more interest in the liberal media bias throughout gamerdom that it uncovered, as well as the media control being exerted by left wing elements including mass bans and such to crush dissenting opinions and keep them out of platforms where they could represent a serious challenge.

So if you're suggesting Escapist's 'SJWs' be mass-banned or anything similar, that would equal armageddon levels of hypocrisy.

however the SJWs have driven nearly everyone else off or gotten them banned, newcomers who aren't SJWs run into the problem your describing and don't think it's worth fighting so they leave.

How can 'SJWs' "get people banned"? I mean, unless you're calling the moderators 'SJWs', that is...

Indeed, as we've seen it played out the SJWs go after someone, report them for not being politically correct, and the mods here have generally held similar sentiments and cooperated with bands, blows to forum health meters, etc... it's calmed down quite a bit, but the forums are much slower and still quite slanted and toxic as was being pointed out. The Escapist has long had a problem with both it's slanted policies and mods, making it very easy to get someone banned if they say strongly disagree about gay rights, or illegal immigrants, or believe in a more aggressive, militant, US (ie nationalism).

To be entirely blunt I don't advocate banning the SJWs, but I do think one of the things that can happen is the policies being more actively changed, along with more impartial mod enforcement, and mods staying entirely out of discussions on the religion and politics forum. If your say not entirely pro-gay, you can risk getting yourself moderated for being anti-gay in a gay rights discussion in a forum dedicated to issues like that. It applies to a lot of things.

The big problem of course is that simply chilling out on the policies is not enough, as that has happened to some extent, though more could happen. The trick is bringing other people who aren't SJWs onto the site, which is difficult when so many people were banned, chased off, or otherwise abandoned the site as a haven for SJWS.

If I was running things from the CEO's perspective (Alexander Marcis I believe...) to try and revitalize the site I'd probably lift all existing bans and send out a mass mail explaining that The Escapist is turning over a new, and more open leaf, and all are invited to return. Such an apology may or may not bring people back.

I've probably been on this site longer than most of the mods to be honest, and I've been quite critical of their policies and had a few run ins over the years. Nothing I'm saying here is new.

That said one thing you seem to not be getting is there are exceptions to every rule, however those exceptions do not become the rule. Sure if you go picking you will of course find exceptions to what I present, because like to everything there are exceptions, but that does not change the rule or how is should be applied to the majority of cases or situations. The more touchy and discussion prone a situation is due to how unusual it is, the more likely there would likely be an exception. For example I don't think freedom of speech, and by association a belief people should not suffer penalties for exercising it, includes things like treason, prevents conspiracy to commit murder from being a crime, or justifies the classic "yelling fire in a crowded movie theater".

On these forums, of course I don't think the SJWs should be censored, I never have, and I've been at this for a very long time. Indeed my personal policy is that I don't report people even when they are quite rude with me, and one of the reasons I've survived so long with conflicts is I know when to just walk away from a thread, and I don't get dragged into flame wars. Fix the policies and bring the others back so this site isn't totally dominated one way and things will balance out, there will still be SJWs but they won't be calling the shots, or creating the kind of environment the OP was commenting on which is arguably a big part of what has been strangling The Escapist so it's a mere shadow of what it has been in the past. Once the site has more users, it can then begin bringing in more content.

 

[Risingblade]

Naw I'd say it's a bit better. I few years ago this forum was fill with horrible horrible human beings.

 

[Kameburger]

So, I've been coming to the escapist site since back in '09 and I've noticed that the community has been becoming progressively more uppity and hostile over the years. I've encountered insults and snarky comments in many of my own posts but lately I've been seeing it throughout most forums. Take for example

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.881615-Ms-Marvel-Vol-1-won-Hugo-award-really

A thread in which the OP made a comment about Ms.Marvel Vol. 1 winning the Hugo award. I clicked on the thread because I read Ms. Marvel and while I like the book it should not have beaten (opinion) its competition for the Hugo award. Instead of a discussion about the merits and faults of the comic everyone latched on to the last sentence of the OP's remark about why he/she thought Ms.Marvel won. Half of the commentors clearly hadn't even read Ms.Marvel, yet felt compelled to be the loudest ones in the room. The whole discussion dissolved into a series of quips about diversity instead of a discussion about Ms.Marvel.

I find that to be the source of the toxicity. An OP posing a question, or making a statement, and the majority of posters latching onto one sentence that they personally take issue with. They ignore the rest of the OP, or more often the main point, in order to focus on something irrelevant to the discussion as a whole. I could find more examples but your already on the site. Just look around.

The escapist has always been a bit of a debate heavy community. I'm finding little and little to come back to because people are simply starting to talk past each other. I always feel like tossing a comment in the Escapist forum is a bit like skipping a stone, you have to throw it hard and sharp in order for it to get any response, but whether you get a couple of response or not, in the end it still sinks to the bottom and gets drowned in a sea of vitriol.

 

[Twintix]

that had to be one of the most frustrating threads I've ever read in my life.

On one side the people who defending book were like "you didn't like the Book you must be a bigot who hates diversity."

And the other side was like "yes you're right the only reason anyone likes it because of diversity and they are nothing more than machine unlike us because we are not controlled by the sjw"

And I just want to scream...

[HEADING=1]MAYBE PEOPLE LIKE DIFFERENT THINGS THAN YOU![/HEADING]

I mean holy shit is that so hard to understand that people simply like/hate things you don't like/hate, no it has to be some political motive! I mean holy Shit.

Yeah, I'm so fucking sick and tired of how impossible people are to please.

Include minorities in a work, and you're a SJW.

Don't, and be a racexphobe.

And everyone everywhere get offended over everything. Yes, even those who claim they aren't. Sheesh...

OT: There's some poisonous parts 'round here, yes. Not the Forum Games, though.

Join us, join us, join us~

 

[Drathnoxis]

however the SJWs have driven nearly everyone else off or gotten them banned, newcomers who aren't SJWs run into the problem your describing and don't think it's worth fighting so they leave.

How can 'SJWs' "get people banned"? I mean, unless you're calling the moderators 'SJWs', that is...

Actually, the rules are worded in such a way that an 'SJW' could start an argument and anybody on the opposite side would in infraction of the rules by default.

"-Offensive Posts
-Please read what you wrote before you post it and think if anyone else could find it offensive."
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/codeofconduct

So pretty much any arguments against inclusivity and equality could be considered offensive to the group excluded and thus would be an infraction.

Example, a user was just banned for this post:

A man can say and demand he be called a woman all he want, doesn't make it so.

OT: There's some poisonous parts 'round here, yes. Not the Forum Games, though.

Join us, join us, join us~

Yes, everyone let's go over to Forum Games! We missed a spot that the toxicity hasn't spread to.