The Felicia Day/Destructoid situation

[Brandon Logan]

You guys remember the Spike VGAs awhile back? I know it's nothing but a big advertisement, but, stick with me here. You remember when we had 30 seconds of Miyamoto followed by 3 minutes of Felica Day trying to cut Fruit with a katana?

Kind of shows how she's viewed by the public right there now doesn't it.



As for the whole cashing in on her looks thing; What looks?

She looks fine but she's by know means Jessica Nigri.

It's more of a cashing in on being a girl gamer. (For Jessica as well but she still has the looks thing.)

 

[Nimcha]

It figures a very minor issue like this would get 19 pages of comments on this site.

 

[Iwata]

The guy has always been a douche, and I'm not in the least bit sorry to see him go. And yeah, he brought it down on himself.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Going back to what Hjalmar said about the "women are, men do" cultural construct, I do think it's interesting that we tend to as a society judge women much more harshly for having this sort of fanbase than men. So you don't see David Tennant attacked for having a legion of squeeing fangirls, but we do see Felicia Day attacked for having a legion of squeeing fanboys.

On some level it could be seen as a side effect of feminism criticising that particular construct. Bashing a woman for cashing (even a little) in on her looks seems more acceptable now that "da evul feminazis said so!"

This particular "trope" is actually at least a century old. In fact any woman who "uses" her looks falls neatly into the succubus-style tropes about women exploiting mens fatal weakness to their feminine guiles. It harkens back to the victorian ideal that women should be pretty, but not be seen, aswell as dutiful and humble. A woman who "uses her looks" is obviously not someone who sticks to the background and if she willfully acknowledges that she looks good she's certainly not humble. In essence fighting this particular part of sexism is fighting social values that are almost 200 years old.

What amazes me is that no one ever seems to turn this around. If a woman can reach great success simply by virtue of attractive looks, what does that say about the men in power? That they would simply give her freebies because she looked good and gave them attention. To me that indicates great problems with personal and moral integrity, yet it is Felicia Day being depicted as the "bad" person here, when it is actually all the game producers, gaming magazines and gamers out there that has let her reach the position she is in today (assuming she's even that bad an actress, which I honestly don't think she is). If she gamed the system, which is highly uncertain (I doubt Ms. Day herself thought "Hey, I'll just sexualize my way into celebrity status with the gamers") then the problem is still not Felicia Day but rather a lot of men in the gaming industry who are way too easily misled by a pretty face. But it wasn't those guys Perez targeted, now was it?

 

[Eyelicker]

snip

I never said I want all characters to be like that, I just don't see that problem that some are. I fucking loved Alyx Vance exactly the way she was, and Chell, well, she's a blank slate like Gordon Freeman so she's not really a character, just a skin for Portal, but it in no way inhibited my enjoyment of the game. I'm really looking forward to this new Lara Croft because it'll be more like I'm playing a real girl.

I never insinuated X should be Y, that's what you seem to be wanting seeing how offended you get at the more outlandish fetishised female characters. My whole point is that nothing SHOULD be any way.

I've heard this "woman are viewing pleasure", males are "power fantasies before and it's still wrong". You think that's what the developers had in mind when they made them?

Firstly, every playable video game character is a "power fantasy", that's part of the attraction of video games, that escapism into a virtual power fantasy. Doesn't matter if I'm playing Adam, Jenson, Lara Croft, Marcus Fenix or Samus, I'm having a power fantasy through them regardless of gender, gender isn't an issue.

And I made it clear last time that I get viewing pleasure from both male and female characters. Doesn't matter that I don't want to actually fuck (or more likely get fucked by) Bryan Fury, I still derive pleasure from his aesthetically pleasing design, the only difference is it can be sexual in nature from a female character cos I'm a guy. I highly doubt you've never found a male character attractive. You see, both with a power fantasy or regarding an aesthetic character, sex isn't a factor beyond wanting to bone the opposite gender if they're hot(and surely you can't argue that that is sexist?!?).

So anyway? what has she done other than pander and deal solely in image? It's nothing to do with being a girl, it's cos she's doing nothing but essentially being a booth babe.

Kim Swift is a fucking bro, and no one could question her contributions. The creators of both Uncharted and Deus Ex are female, and then there's Susan Arendt, who I have massive respect for. You just can't argue that it's instinctive "GIRL IN OUR TREEHOUSE" kneejerk. Non of the above are questioned because they've proven and continue to prove themselves.

snip

Girls I know who game don't bat an eyelid! Yet me and Vault are here right in front of you saying we have a problem and you are all like 'Yeah but you don't matter! But my friends who are girls do! Because they agree with me!' Seems Legit. Over sexualised female characters are a problem because they make female gamers feel unwelcome and uncomfortable. Would you play a beat em up with 10 appropriately dressed women and 6 male strippers?

If they made female gamers feel uncomfortable and welcome then why can't the same be argued about the dissonance between Roidy Mcfacepunch in Shooting people in the face: The Greyening and the average either over or underweight male gamer who gets out muscled by the average lemur? I just countered the "power-trip vs eye candy" above, if some skinny nerd can get a power trip from being Marcus Fenix, why can't you do the same with Bayonetta?

And I would love to play that game idea you had! Best thing you've said yet! Just because plenty of things don't bother me as they are, I'm always game for the status quo to be flipped on it's head in new ways! If Anita was more chill about everything and was putting the money towards something like this instead of just taking an insane amount of money to shlick into a camera for half an hour, I may even be tempted to donate myself!

I'm not doubting that she plays games, everyone plays games, my twitter is full of famous people talking about playing games, but none of them are fostering a "QUIRKY QUEEN OF GAMING CULTURE" image, and getting people fired.

 

[Eyelicker]

snip

Oh yeah, and I forgot about Faith in Mirrors edge, she was one of the best power fantasies I've ever had, I fucking BECAME her for the time I played, I literally wanted to be her, and I didn't even find her that attractive, I just [platonic] loved her personality, athleticism and everything about her. Just to give you a further male insight into how gender really isn't that big a deal for us.

Now I really really want to play as a male stripper in a world of conservatively dressed women

 

[Hjalmar Fryklund]

This particular "trope" is actually at least a century old. In fact any woman who "uses" her looks falls neatly into the succubus-style tropes about women exploiting mens fatal weakness to their feminine guiles. It harkens back to the victorian ideal that women should be pretty, but not be seen, aswell as dutiful and humble. A woman who "uses her looks" is obviously not someone who sticks to the background and if she willfully acknowledges that she looks good she's certainly not humble. In essence fighting this particular part of sexism is fighting social values that are almost 200 years old.

Are you agreeing, disagreeing, or problematising what was essentially (perhaps poorly specified to be) my uneducated guess?

What amazes me is that no one ever seems to turn this around. If a woman can reach great success simply by virtue of attractive looks, what does that say about the men in power?

Putting it this way, it says very unflattering things about their maturity, their worldview, and their professionalism.

That they would simply give her freebies because she looked good and gave them attention. To me that indicates great problems with personal and moral integrity, yet it is Felicia Day being depicted as the "bad" person here, when it is actually all the game producers, gaming magazines and gamers out there that has let her reach the position she is in today (assuming she's even that bad an actress, which I honestly don't think she is). If she gamed the system, which is highly uncertain (I doubt Ms. Day herself thought "Hey, I'll just sexualize my way into celebrity status with the gamers") then the problem is still not Felicia Day but rather a lot of men in the gaming industry who are way too easily misled by a pretty face. But it wasn't those guys Perez targeted, now was it?

I sometimes wonder if we are encouraged by those in power to attack the symptoms of a problem rather than the problem itself. Or perhaps it is the power structure itself that encourages this. Certainly, any power structure would do well to have such an inbuilt self-defense "system." I know this is veering into tinfoil hat territory, but I wonder nontheless.

NOTE: I do not mean to imply that Felicia Day is a "symptom of the problem" here; I do not know enough of her/her work to judge whenether this is the case or not.

Nitpick: You may have intended the "what amazes me" part to be rhethorical, but I will say nontheless that if you continually let yourself be amazed by something it will keep you at arm´s length from understanding it.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Are you agreeing, disagreeing, or problematising what was essentially (perhaps poorly specified to be) my uneducated guess?

I definately agree with you, I was just providing a little more context as to where this "disgust" with succesful, good looking women came from.

Putting it this way, it says very unflattering things about their maturity, their worldview, and their professionalism.

Or at least one of the three. I personally think the problem is on this level (with the leaders that allow their decisions to be so influenced by appearance) and not on the level that a few men and women learn to exploit this.

NOTE: I do not mean to imply that Felicia Day is a "symptom of the problem" here; I do not know enough of her/her work to judge whenether this is the case or not.

Neither do I, but judging from the responses in this thread I think she serves well as an example of how a woman can be derided simply for being assumed to have reached success by virtue of being good looking. So while she might not be a proper symptom of the problem, she is certainly being treated as if she was.

It is also pretty scary that people, even supposedly professional journalists, are ready to assume that a woman has no other merit than being good looking when succesful.

Nitpick: You may have intended the "what amazes me" part to be rhethorical, but I will say nontheless that if you continually let yourself be amazed by something it will keep you at arm´s length from understanding it.

It was completely rethorical, but I still don't understand it.

 

[AngelBlackChaos]

I knew this was going to explode in hatred for absolutely everyone. Someone needs to make a 'love and tolerate' macro with Felicia, who, for the record, only had this to say throughout the entire ordeal:

@PissedOffRyno I accept your apology, genuinely hope you mean it, and hope this can end all the hostility being flung both ways.

Yep. Totally seeing why people hate her.

That's the thing. I get so tired of these situations, they have seemed to have exploded into the scene lately.

I wouldn't ask anyone, male or female, what they have provided gaming. thats opinionated, and who is to say that they haven't provided anything, some sort of invisible rulebook? Secondly, calling a female a glorified booth babe is so insulting. I know many girls who avoid putting their picture in avatars for gaming forums for the sheer fact that some asshole will want her to "Validate" that she is a girl that can game.

People need to fucking get over it. GUYS game. GIRLS game. Hot ones of both sexes, grotesque ones of both sexes. There shouldnt be some sort of validation for either sex so that they can call themselves gamers. It feels like the discussion in SOME parts of the gaming world is stuck right at the launch of puberty, and at some points, considering women a lower form. Its ridiculous.We shouldn't have to have these discussions, we should be talking about what we want for the gaming future, what games we want out, things that we want to become better.

Instead we are reduced to this: sex wars. Again.Discussions on whether it is good to have Lara almost being raped.

We forget about the victims in all this. Not just women, not just those who have been raped (men or women),not just women or men objectified in games. The whole entire gaming community suffers from idiocy like this, as well as the Lara Croft Controversy, the Women vs Tropes controversy, all of it. Why can't we just go forward, and grow as a community celebrating a constantly growing medium?

Let's help the darker parts of the community grow up a bit, and go back to the things we love. Gaming and the community that comes with it.

 

[Hjalmar Fryklund]

I definately agree with you, I was just providing a little more context as to where this "disgust" with succesful, good looking women came from.

Glad to hear it. And it was an informative point you made.

Or at least one of the three. I personally think the problem is on this level (with the leaders that allow their decisions to be so influenced by appearance) and not on the level that a few men and women learn to exploit this.

Seems to be very much a de facto response to these things that one would rather put the problem on the minority´s shoulders than the norm´s.

Neither do I, but judging from the responses in this thread I think she serves well as an example of how a woman can be derided simply for being assumed to have reached success by virtue of being good looking. So while she might not be a proper symptom of the problem, she is certainly being treated as if she was.

You could say that she is an example of that, yes. I won't, however, disregard the possibility that there is something to what SpiderJerusalem said.

It is also pretty scary that people, even supposedly professional journalists, are ready to assume that a woman has no other merit than being good looking when succesful.

For what it is worth, Perez was (if I remember correctly) a mere intern rather than a full-fledged journalist. Not that it is much comfort.

It was completely rethorical, but I still don't understand it.

Fair enough. I won't claim to understand it either (way too many contradictory reasons floating around for me to gain some overview), I just wanted to say that because I know from experience that letting myself stay amazed/baffled/confused/etc. of something have made me slow on the uptake.

 

[honestdiscussioner]

Umm, she has a hit webshow all about gaming and also produced a webseries in the Dragon Age Universe?

What would an actual "contribution" be to the industry? Do you have to be exactly involved in a the creation of a video game to be associated with the medium? What the hell man.

Maybe you don't like her stuff, but that has nothing to do with whether she has contributed.

 

[Vault101]

I never said I want all characters to be like that,

and neither did I

[quote/]I just don't see that problem that some are. [/quote]
the ones that are depends on context....like I said the good thing is I can;t remember the last time I was annoyed at a female charachters outfit

[quote/]I fucking loved Alyx Vance exactly the way she was, and Chell, well, she's a blank slate like Gordon Freeman so she's not really a character, just a skin for Portal, but it in no way inhibited my enjoyment of the game. I'm really looking forward to this new Lara Croft because it'll be more like I'm playing a real girl.[/quote]
and you know what? I'm also totally pumped for the new tomb raider...some people were put off by the abuse she got...but thats a GOOD thing, its struggle, its tension, is growth for a charachter...its me saying "get up! get up Lara! go" not "charachter with big boobs effortlessly kills everything"


[quote/]I never insinuated X should be Y,[/quote]
nope, neather did I (first time around)

[quote/]hat's what you seem to be wanting seeing how offended you get at the more outlandish fetishised female characters.[/quote]
there is a time and place for shamless objectification...but somtimes it its stupid and gets in the way

[quote/]My whole point is that nothing SHOULD be any way.[/quote]

can't disagree there

[quote/]I've heard this "woman are viewing pleasure", males are "power fantasies before and it's still wrong". You think that's what the developers had in mind when they made them?[/quote]
yep

[quote/]Firstly, every playable video game character is a "power fantasy", that's part of the attraction of video games, that escapism into a virtual power fantasy. Doesn't matter if I'm playing Adam, Jenson, Lara Croft, Marcus Fenix or Samus, I'm having a power fantasy through them regardless of gender, gender isn't an issue.
And I made it clear last time that I get viewing pleasure from both male and female characters. Doesn't matter that I don't want to actually fuck (or more likely get fucked by) Bryan Fury, I still derive pleasure from his aesthetically pleasing design, the only difference is it can be sexual in nature from a female character cos I'm a guy. I highly doubt you've never found a male character attractive. You see, both with a power fantasy or regarding an aesthetic character, sex isn't a factor beyond wanting to bone the opposite gender if they're hot(and surely you can't argue that that is sexist?!?).[/quote]
yeah, but your still not getting it a charachter looking cool and a charachter looking "sexy" are too different thngs

to me Adam Jensen looks really really cool, not because of attractiveness or body but his style, his mechanical arms, his coat....he's really cool <-however he isnt walking around with his shirt off or in some kind of leather S&M thong thing,


or take my Femshep...my main example of a female power fantasy I like looking at her asthetically because of the custom armour I put her in, she's cool, she's capable she's on the same level as everyone else

its kind of the difference between a charachter being "yeah! I got this!" and "hey boys..look don't touch"

[quote/]So anyway? what has she done other than pander and deal solely in image? It's nothing to do with being a girl, it's cos she's doing nothing but essentially being a booth babe.[/quote]
this is no logner about Felicia day, I don't know her well enough to make a judgment but I'd say she's kind of an example of unfair acusations of "GURL GAMUR"

[quote/] Non of the above are questioned because they've proven and continue to prove themselves. [/quote]

who the fuck says we have to "prove" ourselfs? none of us need to justify outselfs to fit some definition of "gamer"


[quote/] if some skinny nerd can get a power trip from being Marcus Fenix, why can't you do the same with Bayonetta?[/quote]

because its not the fucking same (going back to my poitn before) Bayonetta is over the top and whatever, but see I can't relate to that,

Maruc fenix is there for YOU to identify with..so of coarse you see his struggles, his triumphs.....Bayonetta is there for your veiwing pleasure...hence they are handled differently

some girls probably like Bayontta just fine...but when I get a shot full of her ass its like *sigh*...really? then again mabye bayonetta is a bad example due to its over the top nature


going back to comander shepard, I use her as an example because in relation to the game world (as I said) she's eauqal, she's not there to be gawked at, shes not there to tease the guys or be one of those "femn fatal" charachters...she's there to fight,

...another way to illustrate the differences are the "poses" you see in promotioanl material....male charachters arnt showing off theirbodies in a sexually sugestive way...where as female charachters some across looking as thought hey are posing for playboy

 

[Cheesepower5]

What valid point? Sorry but that's utterly ridiculous. And how are you confused about why people are calling Ryan a misogynist? He called Day a 'glorified booth babe'. Are you really that immature and stupid that you need me to explain everything that's wrong with what he said?

Yes, you will need to explain that, because if someone's only put on a show because she has great tits (leaving aside the question if this is the case here) is called a glorified booth babe, that is not sexist, but an accurate observation. Remember the top list with Lisa Foiles? Go ahead and claim her appearance had nothing to do with putting the show on, and other choices like creating thumbnails of the show to stick on videos. Go ahead and claim her choice of clothes and appearance was strictly professional. Go ahead and lie.
Saying she was a glorified boothbabe wouldn't be sexist at all, it would be an accurate observation on how she used her body and appearance to try and get more views for her videos.

And if such a claim is not true, it's not sexist either, but an inacurate claim.

Sexism is denying that a gender is capable of something, or is only capable of something, because of their gender. Saying for instance that only men would fight, is sexist. But saying that only women can give birth is not. Saying women can't drive is sexist. Saying this woman can't drive is not sexist. There has to be a generalisation involved, and in individual cases, therefore sexism is hardly ever the case.

And what's with you implicitly insulting anyone who doesn't agree with you, while you're flat out wrong? Is your argument for joining the lynchmob who cost Ryan his job over nothing so flimsy you need insults to conceal you have no arguments?

No. Your point is sexist. Black and white.

It's sexist because you're saying it purely because she's a female in the gaming industry. Nothing suggests that either Foiles or Day are using their bodies to get on shows and get further in the business. Calling them glorified booth babes with entirely subjective opinions and no hard evidence to back up the claims does not make them glorified booth babes. Don't dance around the facts, you're simply wrong.

And grow up. seriously everything in that post was ridiculous.

EDIT: also, with your logic. Calling someone a dumb blonde whore who is good for nothing but cooking and sex is perfectly fine, because it's not generalizing at all.

That's a little radical, jeez. You even said "Black & White", like nothing else matters. I don't disagree with everything being said on either side, but get off your high horse.

Some people here seem to be stereotyping men, like "Oh they all want to be Marcus Fenix, they identify with that." I can't speak for all men, since, I'm not Barack Obama. But maybe that can put guys off of it too? I can safely say the hyper-masculinized look in Gears put me off, among other things. But of course, a woman wouldn't want to play as Bayonetta in the same way as a guy playing Marcus. Let's believe that.

As a disclaimer though, not that that means I suddenly agree that Felicia Day is a glorified booth babe. That doesn't mean we all have to assault people who just don't give a damn who she is.

 

[Jzolr0708]

Hmm... I wonder what Ryan Perez has "provided to gaming." Oh, wait, nobody asks that question because he has a Y chromosome and it's not a good question.

Yeah, far be it to see anybody EVER being cruel to a man. Not like losing his job for a few dumbass comments, that'd never happen.

Yeah, because getting in hot water over sexist remarks is totally the same as being the target of sexist remarks, guise. (Like, seriously, did anyone call, for instance, Nathan Fillion a "glorified booth babe" for being in and helping to promote a Halo game?)

Prove it was sexist. He never said anything to women, he said it to Felicia Day. Last I checked, Felicia Day is not women.

And okay, I misspoke in my previous post. I didn't mean to imply what's-his-name Perez, was the target of sexism. He's not in hot water because of his gender, it's because of the gender of the person he's speaking to. That's just as bad. It's like dropping two people in a warzone for no reason, and saying to the girl: "Oh yeah, here's your bullet proof armour. You get it because you have a vagina."

Actually he's in hot water because he's a massive imbecile who decided to attack a fairly popular actress in a public forum and now he's BAAAAWWWing because, surprisingly, when you insult people, there is blowback.

 

[Nate Corran]

I feel like the lesson learned is don't tweet stupid drunk things at people where it will cause trouble. Also, don't be a dick. Whatever you think of Felicia, she is not responsible for her celebrity. She did some acting, a web series, and people loved it. She acted like a smart person and capitalized on the fame to make her way in the world of entertainment.

Anyway, main point: Rule #1 Don't be a dick. Do that and life is easy.

 

[Glorious manwhore]

He's not being sexist.
He's kind of right when it comes to this, since she really hasn't done anything you know, "much" besides being glorified masturbation role (hey I find her to be hot).
But besides that, who fucking cares? It's video games for Christ sake!