The Future of Electric Vehicles

EvilRoy

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Whoa there, Hoss... Are you tslking evaporative brining for lithium salts or mining lithium bearing ores? Both are environmentally destructive but brining is far more destructive and wasteful.
I was only aware of brining option, but given my understanding of ore extraction I can believe it's also pretty destructive. But ultimately the good news is that we may end up with sodium batteries, which is an element that is way easier to get generally.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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I was only aware of brining option, but given my understanding of ore extraction I can believe it's also pretty destructive. But ultimately the good news is that we may end up with sodium batteries, which is an element that is way easier to get generally.
Australia, which is one of the top 3 lithium sources in the world, only mines ore (it's what we're good at - digging shit up and selling it).

As for sodium... you've still got the brining and mining issues but with the brining you just have to use sea water.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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One good thing about an EV: You can run things off of it if you lose power, without having to worry about killing your family with carbon monoxide.
That's really only certain newer models that are good for that.


Apparently the electric F-150 can power your whole home for a while if necessary.
The newest F-150 and some other EVs are set up for V2G (vehicle to grid) where you can use your EV as a home battery... and it makes sense because most EV batteries are larger than the average home battery.
 

Eacaraxe

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The newest F-150 and some other EVs are set up for V2G (vehicle to grid) where you can use your EV as a home battery... and it makes sense because most EV batteries are larger than the average home battery.
Ford partnering with Sunrun for integrated solar house power, and solar rooftop and tonneau panels, is exciting as well. F-150 Lightnings are pretty damn impressive, and if I had the bill to drop on one, I'd already have put myself on the waiting list. I don't do any hauling nor have real need for it, but the one thing I do like to do is outdoors/camping shit, and a pickup that's simultaneously a mobile power station is perfect for that end -- especially if it had onboard solar for trickle-charging in the field.

That they make Mister Manly Man, Coal-Rollin', Suburban Cowboys weapons-grade buttmad that Ford produced an electric F-150 that outperforms their Teeny Peener-Mobiles is just icing on the cake.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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Ford partnering with Sunrun for integrated solar house power, and solar rooftop and tonneau panels, is exciting as well. F-150 Lightnings are pretty damn impressive, and if I had the bill to drop on one, I'd already have put myself on the waiting list. I don't do any hauling nor have real need for it, but the one thing I do like to do is outdoors/camping shit, and a pickup that's simultaneously a mobile power station is perfect for that end -- especially if it had onboard solar for trickle-charging in the field.
Around these parts you see a lot of utes that are set up for camping have a solar panel or two on top of their roof and/or canopy to help charge their dual battery set ups. More than a few 4x4 SUVs have the same sort of set up... and they're all dino-burners (mostly diesel).

I'm surprised no manufacturer has really leaned into incorporating solar panels into their EVs design from step 1. There's a lot of flat(-ish) upward facing real estate you could incorporate PV cells or panels into.

That they make Mister Manly Man, Coal-Rollin', Suburban Cowboys weapons-grade buttmad that Ford produced an electric F-150 that outperforms their Teeny Peener-Mobiles is just icing on the cake.
Word has it that the RAM 1500 and the Chev Silverado will also have EV versions for the US market within 5 years so that should make them super happy.

I know several tradespeople who'd fucking LOVE to get their hand on an EV ute like the F-150 Lightning... So much less fucking around when they're on an unpowered worksite.
 

Eacaraxe

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I'm surprised no manufacturer has really leaned into incorporating solar panels into their EVs design from step 1. There's a lot of flat(-ish) upward facing real estate you could incorporate PV cells or panels into [...] I know several tradespeople who'd fucking LOVE to get their hand on an EV ute like the F-150 Lightning... So much less fucking around when they're on an unpowered worksite.
I can see arguments for and against onboard solar panels for EV's. On one hand, the additional power the vehicle can get from onboard solar won't make for cost-effective range extension. About the best you'll get there is offsetting short-range commutes in regions with good insolation, when the vehicle isn't parked in garages. But on the other, it offsets use of onboard electronics or using the EV as a mobile power supply, and grants redundancy in the case of roadside emergency. So, it probably is better in the long run to remain an option or aftermarket addition, to keep price-per-unit low to the consumer.

There's no doubt Ford designed the lightning to expand business/commercial vehicle market share, before GM or Chrysler could introduce their own light duty EV pickup. It was a fucking smart move. Though I admit, what I'm watching closely is Jeep's dalliance with PHEV's.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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I can see arguments for and against onboard solar panels for EV's. On one hand, the additional power the vehicle can get from onboard solar won't make for cost-effective range extension. About the best you'll get there is offsetting short-range commutes in regions with good insolation, when the vehicle isn't parked in garages. But on the other, it offsets use of onboard electronics or using the EV as a mobile power supply, and grants redundancy in the case of roadside emergency. So, it probably is better in the long run to remain an option or aftermarket addition, to keep price-per-unit low to the consumer.
Yeah, I can see how including it in base models would be an own-goal, especially in countries where the sun isn't actively trying to kill everyone.

If manufacturers sit around thumb-up-arse as is tradition with options, they'll just get hammered by the aftermarket companies until they just bite the bullet and cut a deal with those companies to include their products as optional extras (at a premium because now they're Official!!!).


There's no doubt Ford designed the lightning to expand business/commercial vehicle market share, before GM or Chrysler could introduce their own light duty EV pickup. It was a fucking smart move. Though I admit, what I'm watching closely is Jeep's dalliance with PHEV's.
The Lightning's only real competitors at the moment are EV vans... which work as pure company vehicles for a lot of things but not everything. Contractors, OTOH, especially smaller owns that can't even really afford to run a 'work' car and a 'private' car would want a 5 seater ute over a van, getting the best of both worlds... unless it's an LDV eT60 (the only EV ute currently on the Australian market), in which case you'd rather just stick to dino-burners because the eT60 is an overpriced piece of shit even worse than the regular T60.


The problem with getting a Jeep is you become a Jeep Driver...
 

Elvis Starburst

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Electric vehicles aren't going to be a thing. Not for a very long time.
Might just be a North America thing, but, considering how many I see out on the road during my work... I think it's already getting to be a thing.

The reason Tesla dominates the market is because electric vehicles are still just expensive toys for rich, gullible people. They can sort of work as an overpriced, inefficient replacement for personal cars. That's about it.
Expensive? Inefficient? I mean, sure, it's more expensive than a petrol/diesel car. But I see plenty of cars and SUVs that price similar to your average EV. They're obviously more than similar vehicles in the class, but it's not THAT much of a price hike.
And inefficient? I dunno man, the Bolt we have at work can get roughly 350-400km a charge, and it's not even the best at what it does. That seems to be the average, but some EVs can get more than that.
Though, the professional market with stuff like trucks and vans, they may still have a ways to go.

Logistical vehicles will need to be gasoline powered for many decades because the electric versions are so completely disastrous in every meaningful performance criteria, so the infrastructure to maintain gasoline vehicles isn't going anywhere.
Which performance metrics are we talking here? To use our work car as an example... It may be a bit heavier in its steering than other cars, but otherwise it's just another car without the normal engine. We're not expecting it to handle like Ferarri or anything. So I'm curious what sort of metrics you're basing off of.
Edit: Googling what a Logistical Vehicle has shown me I had a brief case of the dumb in not understanding what you meant. Ignore the last paragraph of this post
 
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RhombusHatesYou

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Edit: Googling what a Logistical Vehicle has shown me I had a brief case of the dumb in not understanding what you meant. Ignore the last paragraph of this post
Here in Oz they're trialling EV 18 wheelers but... yeah, range V charge, as always, is the big issue. So far the most promising of practical solutions (ie, not just praying for better, more energy dense batteries) is making the batteries hot swappable but would require an even more substantial investment in infrastructure than just getting it up to snuff for personal EVs.

For other, more specialised vehicles and most engineering/construction vehicles, diesel isn't going anywhere in a hurry.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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There won’t be any federal agents in sunglasses and black suits showing up at your doorstep to load your gas stove into a black helicopter to fly it away to a central federal dump site.
Of course not. Using a helicopter would send the wrong message. Black tail-lift truck running on bio-diesel. Much better optics.
 
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RhombusHatesYou

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Expensive? Inefficient? I mean, sure, it's more expensive than a petrol/diesel car.
Upfront, anyway... General running and maintenance costs seem to be appreciably lower, however, there is one HUGE caveat - the battery. If the battery gets buggered and isn't covered by warranty or insurance you are, as they say, fucked. Bastard things cost a shitton more than a new engine for an equivalent IC car would (except, maybe, the prestige wankermobile class).
 

EvilRoy

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Australia, which is one of the top 3 lithium sources in the world, only mines ore (it's what we're good at - digging shit up and selling it).

As for sodium... you've still got the brining and mining issues but with the brining you just have to use sea water.
That's interesting to know, I had always thought salt mining was way more environmentally friendly, but in hindsight I wonder if that's just a bias I have because north America mines a shit tonne of salt and we like to talk ourselves up.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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That's interesting to know, I had always thought salt mining was way more environmentally friendly, but in hindsight I wonder if that's just a bias I have because north America mines a shit tonne of salt and we like to talk ourselves up.
It really depends on what criteria you're looking at and how any single operation is going about it's business.

Also helps that the general public can kinda-sorta get the idea of salt-as-a-pollutant when it comes to water but not so much when it comes to land.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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I mean, "salting the earth" has been referred to in texts as ancient as the Assyrans.
See, that gives the idea of salt as a weapon and heavily underlined 'fuck you'... as pollution, though? Not so much because we tend to conceptualise pollution as being directly dangerous to humans, which soil salinity isn't.
 

Thaluikhain

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See, that gives the idea of salt as a weapon and heavily underlined 'fuck you'... as pollution, though? Not so much because we tend to conceptualise pollution as being directly dangerous to humans, which soil salinity isn't.
Dunno, farmers have been complaining about that for ages. Though, farmers are a small part of the population and I don't know how many listen to them.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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Dunno, farmers have been complaining about that for ages. Though, farmers are a small part of the population and I don't know how many listen to them.
Most people don't listen to farmers because we all know food magically fucking appears in the supermarket.

Also farmers aren't complaining about health risks (salinity being about the only thing farmers confront that isn't) but threats to their ability to raise crops and livestock... and pollution that doesn't pose a direct health risk barely registers with most people. Not gonna die of some weird cancer like totally-not-glyphosate-because-that-shit-was-settled-out-of-court? No one gives a fuck.
 

Ag3ma

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That's interesting to know, I had always thought salt mining was way more environmentally friendly, but in hindsight I wonder if that's just a bias I have because north America mines a shit tonne of salt and we like to talk ourselves up.
Given the expressions "working in the salt mines" and "back to the salt mines", I don't think salt mining has a good reputation.