the Hugo awards and sad puppies.

[Fox12]

Oddly enough, that's pretty much how I feel about the reaction to the Sad Puppies.

I think it could apply to all three factions, honestly.

That's not really the question though.

Ender's Game won the Hugo nigh-on 30 years ago. Do you think it would win today, given Orson Scott Card's more problematic reputation?

That's fair.

Honestly, there's no way of knowing. That's not a cop out, I'm just being frank. It's entirely possible that the voters would be biased against him, but that's always a problem when you have an open voting system like this. Surely the problem is the way the system is structured, then, and not some small group of leftists? Which means the method of voting should be fixed. In any case, there are a few people who I would argue are better then Orson Scott Card that are writing today, so I wouldn't be terribly upset if he did lose.

Choosing someone as homophobic as Card is a somewhat extreme example, though, in my opinion. I think a better question would be whether Ray Bradbury could win a Hugo in today's world, despite his clearly right wing politics. To that I would say yes.

I should probably specify that I'm not left wing, so I don't have a particular bias. I just dislike the Sad Puppies views on literature, which is just as relevant as their political stance. But no ones really innocent in this.

 

[Something Amyss]

The idea that people shouldn't be racist, BUT people should also be hired directly on merit, and that merit should be measured by the white-male gatekeepers of the medium/occupation, is thinking that seems to infect a segment of nerdom. That "outsiders" (minorities and women) can play, but they can't be disruptive or make them uncomfortable, and they have to do things very much like all the white guys that came before them. Even Star Wars could be considered a "message" piece, it just had a really uncontroversial message (evil totalitarians who blow up planets are bad), but people will still bring up this message when they see a black storm trooper. It's not a conscious thing, really, it's the same logic that people who fly the "equalist" banner tend to parrot.

Oddly enough, my gf sent me this tonight [http://ealperin.tumblr.com/post/128213840291/videodante-read-them-all-here-i-felt-like-this]. Timing. Not sure I quite agree about the Hunger Games, but I didn't really go in looking to critique literature, so. Though it's now 4:30 AM, why am I even still moving?

But yeah, I understand it's no a conscious thing. It is, however, frustrating how far people will go to avoid challenging it.

Personally I loved The Goblin Emperor and thought it was better than The Three-Body Problem, but I have a weird incurable brain condition where I can accept the results of an award show without taking it as an affront on my existential being. It's gotten me through quite a few Oscar nights without murdering someone.

I can't remember the last time I read a science fiction book when it was still recent, so these awards have little relevance to me anyway. The only reason I'm aware of them is because the puppies tried to game the system, got news coverage, and a bunch of people got upset because a comic book I'm enjoying won an award.

Still, I've never got the outrage that [thing I don't like] getting an award or a good review or being popular receives. Music, books, video games, comics. Maybe it's just because 80% of my taste is already weird and I accept they're unlikely to win. Hell, with a few exceptions (I'm a really big Queen fan), I rarely expect to see "my" stuff nominated, so I'm always tickled when it does.

*adjusts unironically thick glasses*

 

[burnout02urza]

Okay, I'm going to say this.

It's worth it. I hope they go through this every year, for a simple reason: I'm tired of message fiction.

I'll illustrate with a point. I recently got my hands on a book called 'Press Start to Play'. I was so pumped for this - the book is an anthology of short stories about virtual reality, written by over a dozen authors. This sounds fantastic - I love virtual reality as a setting, and there's a lot of potential for it.

You know what? Nearly ALL the stories are message fiction. What would you expect from a story about virtual reality? Well, epic duels, glitches in the system, finding loot, PvP, and so on. Instead, the stories here are, off the top of my head:

- A strong womyn who complains about oversexualized VR avatars finds out that, in an FPS, the 'revolutionary AI' is actually poor illegal immigrants strapped into VR machines and forced to play for $4 a day. If they're killed by players, they lose their wages. Outraged by this injustice, she vows to do something about it.
- A handsome cis white male executive finds himself being transformed into a woman, an ugly woman, and an orc, because a pair of designers want to increase his sense of empathy. He dies trying to kill them, and they remark despairingly on how everyone would be like him if they could. They specifically refuse to give him his life back, where he'd be a 'racist King Shit'.
- Oregon Trail, as a metaphor for the breakup of a lesbian romance.
- A super-soldier is trained by a game, Recoil, and fails the final test where he has to shoot someone who looks like his girlfriend. He's told that he PASSED the test, because he has a sense of empathy - "Feeling something other than recoil." It's a reference to the joke "What do you feel when you drop bombs on Palestinians/shoot civilians? Recoil."

The last story is an outright screed against Gamergate and how we need to discuss feminism in games.

Does anyone find this fun? Anyone at all? These stories are terrible and not related to the theme at all. They're boring and preachy.

In contrast, a VR story I liked is 'The First Day' from SAO. It's a nasty, nihilistic story that never made it into the anime series. The concept is that Kirito, on the first day in Aincraid, is trying to complete a high-risk quest that will give him a magic sword. However, he meets another boy, Cooper, also trying to complete the same Quest. While they initially cooperate, Cooper attempts to murder Kirito just so he can get a slight advantage. The plan goes wrong, and the two end up fighting for their lives...And only one will walk away.

Seriously, that's so much more interesting compared to the shit we got in the anthology. One or two stories, yes, but nearly ALL of them are like that! It's infuriating.

I'll compare this to the anthology 'Gamer Fantasia', which was actually about gaming and fantasy - With stories about a guy who could pull weapons and creatures from books, a team of astronauts in a complex virtual reality simulation to keep them sane, what comes after death (Hint: You re-roll a new character) and so on.

I don't want fantasy and science-fiction to be overrun by stories that are solely about homosexuality, transsexuality, or womyn who are strong solely because they're being oppressed. That's tedious and boring. Sure, you can write it, but I'm not going to buy it - Who's this supposed to appeal to?

It's like that 2014 story "If You Were a Dinosaur, My Love". It's about a woman who fantasizes about the revenge her gay(?) husband would've taken on a group of gay-bashing construction workers, if he happened to be a dinosaur. This crap got nominated for a Hugo?

Ugh. Better that we burn it all down.

 

[Raesvelg]

Fortunately, if you really care about who wins a Hugo award, you can pay your $40 and vote.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Okay, I'm going to say this.

It's worth it. I hope they go through this every year, for a simple reason: I'm tired of message fiction.

I'll illustrate with a point. I recently got my hands on a book called 'Press Start to Play'. I was so pumped for this - the book is an anthology of short stories about virtual reality, written by over a dozen authors. This sounds fantastic - I love virtual reality as a setting, and there's a lot of potential for it.

You know what? Nearly ALL the stories are message fiction. What would you expect from a story about virtual reality? Well, epic duels, glitches in the system, finding loot, PvP, and so on. Instead, the stories here are, off the top of my head:

- A strong womyn who complains about oversexualized VR avatars finds out that, in an FPS, the 'revolutionary AI' is actually poor illegal immigrants strapped into VR machines and forced to play for $4 a day. If they're killed by players, they lose their wages. Outraged by this injustice, she vows to do something about it.
- A handsome cis white male executive finds himself being transformed into a woman, an ugly woman, and an orc, because a pair of designers want to increase his sense of empathy. He dies trying to kill them, and they remark despairingly on how everyone would be like him if they could. They specifically refuse to give him his life back, where he'd be a 'racist King Shit'.
- Oregon Trail, as a metaphor for the breakup of a lesbian romance.
- A super-soldier is trained by a game, Recoil, and fails the final test where he has to shoot someone who looks like his girlfriend. He's told that he PASSED the test, because he has a sense of empathy - "Feeling something other than recoil." It's a reference to the joke "What do you feel when you drop bombs on Palestinians/shoot civilians? Recoil."

The last story is an outright screed against Gamergate and how we need to discuss feminism in games.

Does anyone find this fun? Anyone at all? These stories are terrible and not related to the theme at all. They're boring and preachy.

In contrast, a VR story I liked is 'The First Day' from SAO. It's a nasty, nihilistic story that never made it into the anime series. The concept is that Kirito, on the first day in Aincraid, is trying to complete a high-risk quest that will give him a magic sword. However, he meets another boy, Cooper, also trying to complete the same Quest. While they initially cooperate, Cooper attempts to murder Kirito just so he can get a slight advantage. The plan goes wrong, and the two end up fighting for their lives...And only one will walk away.

Seriously, that's so much more interesting compared to the shit we got in the anthology. One or two stories, yes, but nearly ALL of them are like that! It's infuriating.

I'll compare this to the anthology 'Gamer Fantasia', which was actually about gaming and fantasy - With stories about a guy who could pull weapons and creatures from books, a team of astronauts in a complex virtual reality simulation to keep them sane, what comes after death (Hint: You re-roll a new character) and so on.

I don't want fantasy and science-fiction to be overrun by stories that are solely about homosexuality, transsexuality, or womyn who are strong solely because they're being oppressed. That's tedious and boring. Sure, you can write it, but I'm not going to buy it - Who's this supposed to appeal to?

It's like that 2014 story "If You Were a Dinosaur, My Love". It's about a woman who fantasizes about the revenge her gay(?) husband would've taken on a group of gay-bashing construction workers, if he happened to be a dinosaur. This crap got nominated for a Hugo?

Ugh. Better that we burn it all down.

Is 'Press Start to Play' related to the Hugos in some manner? I never saw who all the nominees were.

Also the first premise made me laugh because it sounds hilariously stupid. It's cartoon villain level evil and if you're pretty much enslaving them why pay them $4 a day.

 

[Jhereg42]

In contrast, a VR story I liked is 'The First Day' from SAO. It's a nasty, nihilistic story that never made it into the anime series. The concept is that Kirito, on the first day in Aincraid, is trying to complete a high-risk quest that will give him a magic sword. However, he meets another boy, Cooper, also trying to complete the same Quest. While they initially cooperate, Cooper attempts to murder Kirito just so he can get a slight advantage. The plan goes wrong, and the two end up fighting for their lives...And only one will walk away.

I think Kawahara has actually matured into a great writer. His early stories were entertaining but the writing style was a bit loose. Recently, I've been reading his SAO: Progressive series (Yen press is finally publishing them)and I cannot find a fault. They are seriously good. I know many disagree with me in that respect, but that's why it's an opinion.

Considering he basically started and was published because of the Japanese equivalent of NANWRIMO he's shown a rather remarkable learning curve.

 

[Saetha]

Okay, I'm going to say this.

It's worth it. I hope they go through this every year, for a simple reason: I'm tired of message fiction.

I'll illustrate with a point. I recently got my hands on a book called 'Press Start to Play'. I was so pumped for this - the book is an anthology of short stories about virtual reality, written by over a dozen authors. This sounds fantastic - I love virtual reality as a setting, and there's a lot of potential for it.

You know what? Nearly ALL the stories are message fiction. What would you expect from a story about virtual reality? Well, epic duels, glitches in the system, finding loot, PvP, and so on. Instead, the stories here are, off the top of my head:

- A strong womyn who complains about oversexualized VR avatars finds out that, in an FPS, the 'revolutionary AI' is actually poor illegal immigrants strapped into VR machines and forced to play for $4 a day. If they're killed by players, they lose their wages. Outraged by this injustice, she vows to do something about it.
- A handsome cis white male executive finds himself being transformed into a woman, an ugly woman, and an orc, because a pair of designers want to increase his sense of empathy. He dies trying to kill them, and they remark despairingly on how everyone would be like him if they could. They specifically refuse to give him his life back, where he'd be a 'racist King Shit'.
- Oregon Trail, as a metaphor for the breakup of a lesbian romance.
- A super-soldier is trained by a game, Recoil, and fails the final test where he has to shoot someone who looks like his girlfriend. He's told that he PASSED the test, because he has a sense of empathy - "Feeling something other than recoil." It's a reference to the joke "What do you feel when you drop bombs on Palestinians/shoot civilians? Recoil."

The last story is an outright screed against Gamergate and how we need to discuss feminism in games.

Well, in all fairness, that third one doesn't sound like a message story. Just a story about lesbians breaking up.The others though... yikes.

It seems increasingly like the whole "diversity" thing was a mere subset of the Puppies' complaint that (As the diversity talk tends to do) hijacked the discussion and turned a complex issue with some valid points into yet another internet war of Sexist bigot/Rabid SJW accusations. *Sigh* Now, granted, I'm not entirely familiar with the issue, so my opinion's probably not as valuable as someone who has followed the Hugo's and the Puppies closely, but I can't help but think the larger issue here is genre fiction trying to masquerade as lit fic. The complaints about how all the fun's been sapped out of Sci-fi/Fantasy, the idea that good literature has to have "meaning" to have artistic merit - that to be good, a work must be political, overtly so, because otherwise it lacks that "meaning" and thus is undeserving of critical acclaim, even as it rakes in audience adoration. It would explain the divide in recent years between reader favor and Hugo acclaim.

I don't agree with that idea. At all. The Hugo's are inherently genre fiction, should embrace that, and furthermore, seem to style themselves as a celebration of fandom. And fandom isn't pseudo-philosophic rambling or needless over-politicization, it's geeking out about the Avenger's action scenes or arguing if Katniss should end up with Peeta or Gale. It's built on escapist fantasy. And this feels a lot like a widespread case of Fast Cars - an attempt by writers pigeon-holed into escapist fantasy to prove that they can be "serious" and "meaningful" when they're really just being sort of pretentious.

It's fine if those at the Hugo's want to change their identity (Although I'd argue the mark of a truly great writer is making message fic interesting even to popcorn readers, and the Hugo's would ideally aim for and celebrate them) but obviously others are quite happy where they are, and tensions arose from this divide over what the awards are supposed to be - the usual accusations of bigotry/SocJus were just easy propaganda to demonize the opposition with.

Granted, again, haven't been following closely. Could be wrong.

 

[Nielas]

Well, in all fairness, that third one doesn't sound like a message story. Just a story about lesbians breaking up.The others though... yikes.

It seems increasingly like the whole "diversity" thing was a mere subset of the Puppies' complaint that (As the diversity talk tends to do) hijacked the discussion and turned a complex issue with some valid points into yet another internet war of Sexist bigot/Rabid SJW accusations. *Sigh* Now, granted, I'm not entirely familiar with the issue, so my opinion's probably not as valuable as someone who has followed the Hugo's and the Puppies closely, but I can't help but think the larger issue here is genre fiction trying to masquerade as lit fic. The complaints about how all the fun's been sapped out of Sci-fi/Fantasy, the idea that good literature has to have "meaning" to have artistic merit - that to be good, a work must be political, overtly so, because otherwise it lacks that "meaning" and thus is undeserving of critical acclaim, even as it rakes in audience adoration. It would explain the divide in recent years between reader favor and Hugo acclaim.

I don't agree with that idea. At all. The Hugo's are inherently genre fiction, should embrace that, and furthermore, seem to style themselves as a celebration of fandom. And fandom isn't pseudo-philosophic rambling or needless over-politicization, it's geeking out about the Avenger's action scenes or arguing if Katniss should end up with Peeta or Gale. It's built on escapist fantasy. And this feels a lot like a widespread case of Fast Cars - an attempt by writers pigeon-holed into escapist fantasy to prove that they can be "serious" and "meaningful" when they're really just being sort of pretentious.

It's fine if those at the Hugo's want to change their identity (Although I'd argue the mark of a truly great writer is making message fic interesting even to popcorn readers, and the Hugo's would ideally aim for and celebrate them) but obviously others are quite happy where they are, and tensions arose from this divide over what the awards are supposed to be - the usual accusations of bigotry/SocJus were just easy propaganda to demonize the opposition with.

Granted, again, haven't been following closely. Could be wrong.

Short form Scifi has always been very message driven. There is always a twist or a moral message that Humans Are the Real Monsters. It's kind of like watching Twilight Zone or Outer Limits.

These days most of the popular Scifi tends to be full length novels and series of novels. There is a feeling among some authors that the actual bias in the Hugos is that they still favor short form fiction and thus the popular novel and series writers are grossly underrepresented in the awards.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

The complaints about how all the fun's been sapped out of Sci-fi/Fantasy, the idea that good literature has to have "meaning" to have artistic merit

The word you're looking for is "theme", and yeah, good writing kind of does need to have some kind of thematic content. Even pulpy mass market entertainment like Star Wars has themes. The prequels not so much (or they were so inelegantly communicated as to be near worthless), and that played a primary role in them being as shitty as they were.

Themes need not be "political", but good works of literature definitely have to 'have meaning'.

 

[Saetha]

The complaints about how all the fun's been sapped out of Sci-fi/Fantasy, the idea that good literature has to have "meaning" to have artistic merit

The word you're looking for is "theme", and yeah, good writing kind of does need to have some kind of thematic content. Even pulpy mass market entertainment like Star Wars has themes. The prequels not so much (or they were so inelegantly communicated as to be near worthless).

Themes need not be "political", but good works of literature definitely have to 'have meaning'.

If you'll notice, I used quotations on "meaning." Which is to say, I don't agree with the definition I used. I'm not defining meaning as "The point of the story." I'm defining meaning as "Some complex message that's more subversive than generally accepted morals like 'don't blow up planets' or 'don't be a murdering dictator.'"

And again, that second definition isn't one I agree with. Star Wars wasn't exactly some scathing commentary on the state and morality of society, but it wouldn't have become a cultural icon if it didn't carry meaning to some. Your definition of meaning, sure, that I can get behind. The definition of meaningful that's basically another word for edgy, eh, not so much.

*Sigh* I don't know, I don't feel like I'm explaining myself well, but I have to go right now anyways, so I don't have the time to distill my point and cut out the fluff.

 

[Fox12]

Okay, I'm going to say this.

It's worth it. I hope they go through this every year, for a simple reason: I'm tired of message fiction.

I'll illustrate with a point. I recently got my hands on a book called 'Press Start to Play'. I was so pumped for this - the book is an anthology of short stories about virtual reality, written by over a dozen authors. This sounds fantastic - I love virtual reality as a setting, and there's a lot of potential for it.

You know what? Nearly ALL the stories are message fiction. What would you expect from a story about virtual reality? Well, epic duels, glitches in the system, finding loot, PvP, and so on. Instead, the stories here are, off the top of my head:

- A strong womyn who complains about oversexualized VR avatars finds out that, in an FPS, the 'revolutionary AI' is actually poor illegal immigrants strapped into VR machines and forced to play for $4 a day. If they're killed by players, they lose their wages. Outraged by this injustice, she vows to do something about it.
- A handsome cis white male executive finds himself being transformed into a woman, an ugly woman, and an orc, because a pair of designers want to increase his sense of empathy. He dies trying to kill them, and they remark despairingly on how everyone would be like him if they could. They specifically refuse to give him his life back, where he'd be a 'racist King Shit'.
- Oregon Trail, as a metaphor for the breakup of a lesbian romance.
- A super-soldier is trained by a game, Recoil, and fails the final test where he has to shoot someone who looks like his girlfriend. He's told that he PASSED the test, because he has a sense of empathy - "Feeling something other than recoil." It's a reference to the joke "What do you feel when you drop bombs on Palestinians/shoot civilians? Recoil."

The last story is an outright screed against Gamergate and how we need to discuss feminism in games.

Does anyone find this fun? Anyone at all? These stories are terrible and not related to the theme at all. They're boring and preachy.

In contrast, a VR story I liked is 'The First Day' from SAO. It's a nasty, nihilistic story that never made it into the anime series. The concept is that Kirito, on the first day in Aincraid, is trying to complete a high-risk quest that will give him a magic sword. However, he meets another boy, Cooper, also trying to complete the same Quest. While they initially cooperate, Cooper attempts to murder Kirito just so he can get a slight advantage. The plan goes wrong, and the two end up fighting for their lives...And only one will walk away.

Seriously, that's so much more interesting compared to the shit we got in the anthology. One or two stories, yes, but nearly ALL of them are like that! It's infuriating.

I'll compare this to the anthology 'Gamer Fantasia', which was actually about gaming and fantasy - With stories about a guy who could pull weapons and creatures from books, a team of astronauts in a complex virtual reality simulation to keep them sane, what comes after death (Hint: You re-roll a new character) and so on.

I don't want fantasy and science-fiction to be overrun by stories that are solely about homosexuality, transsexuality, or womyn who are strong solely because they're being oppressed. That's tedious and boring. Sure, you can write it, but I'm not going to buy it - Who's this supposed to appeal to?

It's like that 2014 story "If You Were a Dinosaur, My Love". It's about a woman who fantasizes about the revenge her gay(?) husband would've taken on a group of gay-bashing construction workers, if he happened to be a dinosaur. This crap got nominated for a Hugo?

Ugh. Better that we burn it all down.

Ugh. I would prefer it if Sword Art Online didn't become the standard to which we hold literature. Yes, the stories you mentioned we're bad, but that has nothing to with the message. It has to do with the lack of skill on the writers part. It's possible to be entertaining and intelligent. But the answer is not favor boring, simplistic, derivative fiction. I would rather see someone try and fail to do something unique, then see someone succeed at making a cliche story. Which is what The First Day kind of sounds like.

 

[TakerFoxx]

Mixing science fiction/fantasy and a message is always going to be a tricky tightrope to walk. I mean, if you can pull it off in a way that doesn't ruin the story but instead enhances it, then you can do something very special, but it's so easy to do poorly. I've always felt that the best way to pull it off wasn't to tell your audience what to think (like Sword of Truth did. Brrrr), but instead present a topic to think about, like what Ex Machina did.

 

[Raesvelg]

It would be hard to find Sci-fi without a message. SoT after all, is well loved for the first three books which were still plenty preachy. The issue is just when the rest of the story falls down.

Heinlein preached relentlessly, so did Asimov, so does Niven. There's nothing wrong with it, but people have always been horribly offended by it. Self styled conservatives always lose their shit at the idea that the broader popular culture has left them behind. The irony is that it has, and did about a hundred years ago.

The problem is that hypothetically at least, the Puppies aren't actually against message fiction.

They're against boring message fiction.

Now, that's generally being interpreted as them being against all message fiction, and their rhetoric (mostly Torgersen's, really) tends to undermine their position a bit, but Correia's stance was on record for a while. Hell, even Correia's MHI books have their own little bits of message tucked into them.

 

[Scow2]

The Rabid Puppies... well... they want what Vox Day wants. If you don't know the guy, even a fairly cursory search on him will give you a fairly good idea of his views on things like minorities and women.

But... are they really his views, or are they merely the views that will piss everyone off?

 

[Cryselle]

That's not really the question though.

Ender's Game won the Hugo nigh-on 30 years ago. Do you think it would win today, given Orson Scott Card's more problematic reputation?

Whenever you have a voting system, the public's views of the person is going to bleed into their views of the person's works. Hell, that's why character witnesses are a thing in trials, to try to convince the jury that the defendant is such a great person they obviously aren't guilty of a crime, even though objectively most people are aware than normally nice people can still do bad things. A professional critic is /supposed/ to be able to separate the two views out and critique the work without bias, but even they fail to do so on a very regular basis.

This is neither a leftist nor a rightest thing, it's just something that humans have a very strong tendency to do without specific steps being taken to avoid it.

But... are they really his views, or are they merely the views that will piss everyone off?

Not relevant. If you stand up and declare a set of views as being your own, you can't really pretend to be surprised that people take you at face value on them. If the views you declare and the views you truly have differ, you only have yourself to blame.

 

[Silvanus]

The problem is that hypothetically at least, the Puppies aren't actually against message fiction.

They're against boring message fiction.

Now, that's generally being interpreted as them being against all message fiction, and their rhetoric (mostly Torgersen's, really) tends to undermine their position a bit, but Correia's stance was on record for a while. Hell, even Correia's MHI books have their own little bits of message tucked into them.

Could be. Could also be that they don't consider it "message fiction" when it's a message they agree with, as is very often the case; people are far more likely to call out biases in others than to recognise their own.

 

[Scow2]

But... are they really his views, or are they merely the views that will piss everyone off?

Not relevant. If you stand up and declare a set of views as being your own, you can't really pretend to be surprised that people take you at face value on them. If the views you declare and the views you truly have differ, you only have yourself to blame.

It is relevant, though - People taking him at his word and getting all offended, and burning everything he touches is what he wants. Why bother setting people on fire yourself if you can convince them to set each other on fire for you?

 

[Fox12]

It would be hard to find Sci-fi without a message. SoT after all, is well loved for the first three books which were still plenty preachy. The issue is just when the rest of the story falls down.

Heinlein preached relentlessly, so did Asimov, so does Niven. There's nothing wrong with it, but people have always been horribly offended by it. Self styled conservatives always lose their shit at the idea that the broader popular culture has left them behind. The irony is that it has, and did about a hundred years ago.

The problem is that hypothetically at least, the Puppies aren't actually against message fiction.

They're against boring message fiction.

Now, that's generally being interpreted as them being against all message fiction, and their rhetoric (mostly Torgersen's, really) tends to undermine their position a bit, but Correia's stance was on record for a while. Hell, even Correia's MHI books have their own little bits of message tucked into them.

But all that boils down to is that they're against bad writing. And everyone's against bad writing.

The fact that they don't seem to understand that themselves says a lot about their intelligence, and how much I should take them seriously. I don't think I've ever heard of a term more meaningless then message fiction. It's even worse then SJW. Literally anything could be described as message fiction. Worse, the word implies that the problem with fiction in general is that it has a message. As if we should hold up stories for their lack of a message. The entire thing is inherently anti-intellectual. Unless they simply mean that their against certain types of messages in fiction. But, then, what seperates them from everyone else? The whole thing is so mind numbing its painful.

I mean, look at how much of our best media would be called message fiction. Lord of the Rings, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Berserk, Star Wars, Dark Souls, Dune, Enders Game, and anything by Ray Bradbury and Harlan Ellison. I mean, what's so wrong with having a message. Are we seriously going push for mindless action serials that never seek to offend, or touch anything controversial? Sterile, clean, safe, and soulless? The people pushing this issue see the world in painfully simple terms, and they're attacking the wrong target. They should be attacking bad writing, but instead they're attacking anything they see as faintly intellectual. I find this ordeal quite distressing...

 

[burnout02urza]

It would be hard to find Sci-fi without a message. SoT after all, is well loved for the first three books which were still plenty preachy. The issue is just when the rest of the story falls down.

Heinlein preached relentlessly, so did Asimov, so does Niven. There's nothing wrong with it, but people have always been horribly offended by it. Self styled conservatives always lose their shit at the idea that the broader popular culture has left them behind. The irony is that it has, and did about a hundred years ago.

The problem is that hypothetically at least, the Puppies aren't actually against message fiction.

They're against boring message fiction.

Now, that's generally being interpreted as them being against all message fiction, and their rhetoric (mostly Torgersen's, really) tends to undermine their position a bit, but Correia's stance was on record for a while. Hell, even Correia's MHI books have their own little bits of message tucked into them.

But all that boils down to is that they're against bad writing. And everyone's against bad writing.

The fact that they don't seem to understand that themselves says a lot about their intelligence, and how much I should take them seriously. I don't think I've ever heard of a term more meaningless then message fiction. It's even worse then SJW. Literally anything could be described as message fiction. Worse, the word implies that the problem with fiction in general is that it has a message. As if we should hold up stories for their lack of a message. The entire thing is inherently anti-intellectual. Unless they simply mean that their against certain types of messages in fiction. But, then, what seperates them from everyone else? The whole thing is so mind numbing its painful.

I mean, look at how much of our best media would be called message fiction. Lord of the Rings, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Berserk, Star Wars, Dark Souls, Dune, Enders Game, and anything by Ray Bradbury and Harlan Ellison. I mean, what's so wrong with having a message. Are we seriously going push for mindless action serials that never seek to offend, or touch anything controversial? Sterile, clean, safe, and soulless? The people pushing this issue see the world in painfully simple terms, and they're attacking the wrong target. They should be attacking bad writing, but instead they're attacking anything they see as faintly intellectual. I find this ordeal quite distressing...

All right, I'm sorry, but - Your statement is completely nonsensical.

There's nothing 'intellectual' about the stuff we've been getting in the Hugo Awards. It's all about agenda-pushing for the gay, lesbian, liberal, whatever viewpoint. They're political statements.

More - What 'message' are you getting from the stories you've listed?

Lord of the Rings - The banality of evil.
Neon Genesis Evangelion - Now this is a confusing one. People with mental problems are severely messed up?
Berserk - In a grim and dark fantasy world, do whatever it takes to survive. Or is "Don't sell your friends to demons?" Because that worked out pretty well for Griffith! Or is it an anti-religious message, along the lines of "God is basically an asshole?"
Star Wars - Don't give in to hatred/Fight evil where you find it.
Dark Souls - This is another complicated one. What's the message of Dark Souls? It can't be "Hope springs eternal", because both endings are not very happy. "The cycle continues?" "Sometimes, you have to take Lassie out behind the woodshed and put him out of his misery?"
Dune - Religion becomes fanaticism? The inevitable sweep and scale of history?
Ender's Game - War is hell, and innocence is its first casualty/For the world to be preserved, sacrifice must be made/Children are a microsm of adults.

Do you see anything about mindsets you're supposed to adopt/cultural norms you should bow to in the above stories? What do you take from Dark Souls? "When the world is crumbling and going to shit, our choices are to burn it all down, or to start the cycle again...At the cost of someone's eternal suffering."

Even Ray Bradbury and Harlan Ellison's stories weren't necessarily pushing an agenda - They were written to be, you know, stories. What's the message of 'The Golden Apples of the Sun' or 'I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream'?

The 'message fiction' I'm referring to are the ones which push certain lifestyles and ways of thinking as desirable. They're thinly-disguised polemics. They should be called out as much as stories which have a sudden digression to go - "By the way, miscegenation is the greatest crime anyone could commit, and it is our duty to push for racial purity."

I'll add - What's the message of A Song of Ice & Fire? Or the Metal Gear Solid series? Those are definitely thought-provoking, but they're not preachy or moralizing. If anything, ASoIF has been accused of being the lowest-common denominator pap you're railing against. (Personally, I would like more misery porn and schadenfreude in novels, but that's just my personal taste.)

There's nothing 'intellectual' about the stories the Sad Puppies are protesting against, and the wave that's engulfed the Hugo Awards. It's all about people trying to appear as progressive as possible to please a certain demographic, and claiming points for that. Press Start to Continue is a perfect example of how those stories tend to be blatant and really, really bad. They're actively insulting to one's intelligence.

If you can't see that, you're being deliberately disingenuous. I personally think you're conflating stories in general with message fiction - I can't see why you'd make the link, otherwise.

 

[Fox12]

SNIP

You saw Eva, and the only thing you got out of it was that crazy people are crazy? You read Berserk, and the only thing you got out of it was that it's bad too betray people? You either didn't understand the source material at all, or you're being deliberately obtuse. Which is more or less the issue I have with the various groups involved.

All fiction is message fiction to some degree. Most great storytellers don't have an agenda, the themes of their stories just evolve naturally. The religious themes of Lord of the rings came from Tolkien's Catholicism. The fantasy came from his love of fairy tales and ancient legends. The language from his love of linguistics and poetry. I don't think any of the stories I listed had an agenda, but they are just as thematic as the so called "message fiction" you keep mentioning, so what does it matter? And the proper term is theme, not message fiction.

But lets take the argument further, and talk about stories that are pushing an agenda. Why is that bad? George Orwell was pushing an agenda with 1984. Charles Dickens was pushing a political and social agenda with every single novel he ever wrote. Victor Hugo used his literature, including Les Mis, to push his social views. So did John Steinbeck with The Grapes of Wrath. These men were all universally acclaimed writers who wrote with specific agendas in mind. Their work still had heart. Would you criticize their work for being agenda based? The only real difference between their work and If you were a dinosaur, my love is that they are incredibly talented writers, and the Hugo writers mentioned are not. So the problem was never about theme, but talent.