The Last Action Gamer (Dragon Age 2 related, first post edited)

SageRuffin

M-f-ing Jedi Master
Dec 19, 2009
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Gill Kaiser said:
There are already too many action games. Making an action game is easier and more profitable than making a deep, lengthy RPG. Action gamers don't need any more games, whereas RPG gamers are grasping at what they can get, desperate for it not to be taken away.
Is that why action gamers are frowned upon? Or am I reading that wrong?

This isn't just about RPGs having action-oriented elements. This is about people who happen to like action games. Sure, I can understand a bit of skepticism when a game undergoes major changes to the gameplay (ME vs ME2 for instance), but how do us who prefer action game elements become any less of a gamer just because of that?

Correction: Had to alter the wording there.
 

Trolldor

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Jan 20, 2011
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Silent Biohazard Solid said:
Dragon Age II is still an RPG. It's just not a boring point and click Diablo style RPG, anymore. When it comes to gameplay, Western RPGs are better now that they're more action oriented.
Dragon Age II didn't change its genre. It just upgraded its gameplay to current generation.
Yes, these statements will probably piss some people off, but I'm not trolling. I honestly believe this.
It changed its genre from a Turn-Based RPG to "Dialogue Wheel". The current generation is primarily 25-30 year olds who enjoyed the traditional RPGs and who still do.

Dragon Age 2 is shit because it has been dumbed down for the console generation.
Mechanically - apart from the waves and the dialogue wheel - it's fine.
But characterisation is hollow, setting is hollow, recycling of areas is hollow. Dialogue wheel and waves are hollow. Empty padding with no substance.
And prima-consolers are loving it.

And it's now system of combat is fucking simplistic and easy as shit.
It requires tactics and management, but unlike Origins where buffs and potions and placement all mattered, 2 just requires you to run around like a ***** while you wait for ability cool downs.
 

SageRuffin

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Dec 19, 2009
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Dexter111 said:
SageRuffin said:
Dexter111 said:
You completely missed my point. I'm not talking about how there are or should be more action-RPGs. I'm talking how some of us who prefer action-RPGs are looked down upon and lumped together with punk-ass juvenile Blops fanboys.

So no, not really.
What exactly don't you get? There are enough Action RPGs out there to last decades and there's going to be more. Noone has anything against Hack&Slash games... in fact some of them like Diablo 2 are my favorites and I'm looking forward to Dungeon Siege III and Torchlight II a lot (especially cause of Co-Op). But if you only like Action RPGs then play them and don't get into tactical RPGs or TBS (Turn-Based-Strategy/Tactics like Fallout or King's Bounty) games and complain that they aren't action-y enough. There's few left of them anyway as I tried to spell out above and there were a lot of people that liked DA:O for what it was and are naturally pissed about DA2.
And again, I'm not talking about the qualifications of an action-RPG or other sub-genre thereof. Hell, I'm not even talking about DA, I just used the games in reference to the current times and relaying my own experiences. If you enjoy the games for what they are, cool. I'm certainly not gonna try and persuade you otherwise.

What I'm saying is that there are some of us, like myself, that prefer that DA2 plays more like an action game, and as such we get labeled as idiot fuckheads by those who think of themselves as "true Dragon Age fans", whatever the hell that means.

In regards to DA itself, I said in my opening post that I can acknowledge what made the games as great as most people revere them in terms of the combat mechanics. Hell, I didn't even say Origins was bad. I simply said I didn't like the combat since it often put me to sleep (amongst other things). I merely have personal gripes that you obviously don't agree with, nothing more.
 

Exius Xavarus

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May 19, 2010
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I enjoyed the actual combat itself in DA2 more than I did in Origins, however I felt that the way they changed actually encountering enemies wasn't so great. They pop up all over the place in wave after wave. You call the waves, wait a few seconds for the battle stances to cease and move about exploring as normal, only to find out that you're not exiting battle mode because a few enemies were camping in a room that you didn't bother to open the door of. The way you encountered enemies in DA2 drove me nuts, but I enjoyed it because the actual combat itself was faster and more engaging. At least, for me. I know I loved Dual Weapon Rogues with Haste from both Anders and Bethany at once. x3
 

SageRuffin

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Dec 19, 2009
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I feel the need to reiterate myself. It seems the original message was lost when I was comparing Dragon Age 2 to its predecessor...

This is not a discussion about Dragon Age and how it's different. This is more a discussion about how some people like myself actually like action-oriented RPGs as well as action games by extension, but are labeled as idiots simply because we happen to have some different tastes in video games. DAO and DA2 were used as references to help illustrate my point of how one can be bored by the mechanics of one and enthralled by those of the other, and be unfairly ridiculed for doing so. Now I realize I may have done so incorrectly, and for that I apologize.

Hell, I could easily say that those who prefer turn-based or pause-and-play games are a bunch of pansy-ass high-and-mighty bookworm dorks who have the reflexes of a slug, and would probably get slaughtered if he or she were to play a relatively easy action game like TMNT (or some such) since they couldn't plan ahead. Some others may do that, but I don't. But if I did, best believe I would get some very angry statements from a few people.

Hopefully that clears a few things up now.
 

Krantos

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Silent Biohazard Solid said:
When it comes to gameplay, Western RPGs are better now that they're more action oriented.
Dragon Age II didn't change its genre. It just upgraded its gameplay to current generation.
Yes, these statements will probably piss some people off, but I'm not trolling. I honestly believe this.
The problem is it's entirely opinion based. You can't really say "It's better," because to some people, it's not. I can "improve" my cheeseburger by adding Tabsco, but some people won't appreciate my "improvement" on their sandwich.

Personally, I think the DA2 flaming (on both sides) is a little ridiculous. Both sides seem to take it as a personal insult that not everyone agrees with them. I know that's basically par for the course on the internet, but come on.

People who hated it need to understand that it hit all the right buttons for some. People who loved it need to understand there are a number of legitimate complaints about it.
 

Seejur

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Mar 31, 2010
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From my point of view, rpg people have more complained about the waves, and the reused caves, and the lack of customization (armor for companions, lack of toolsex for modding) then for the combat itself.

That's why everytime you ask why rpg people hate combat so much, they reply you with different things: they are much more pissed off about the consolization than the combat itself.

I, for example (and I am an old rpg player since Baludur's Gate, only using PC), do like more the DA2 combat system (much more creative than the usual "Storm of the Century" win in DAO), while I absolutely hate the lask of toolset for PC gamer.

Another thing why we hate so much DA2 is because of expectations: DAO was the only good rpg out there, while rts players have only to choose between 1000 titles (especially from bioware). And what worries us the most, is that the more bioware goes on, the more the game are "simplified" (for example the inventory from ME to ME2)

And even more: why do for release the frigging toolset! It would have not changed anything for the console players, but it would have been sooooo much better for the PC player! It had no downsides! (In fact that's the thing which makes me most angry... grrrr....)
 

DustyDrB

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Jan 19, 2010
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SageRuffin said:
I feel the need to reiterate myself. It seems the original message was lost when I was comparing Dragon Age 2 to its predecessor...

This is not a discussion about Dragon Age and how it's different. This is more a discussion about how some people like myself actually like action-oriented RPGs as well as action games by extension, but are labeled as idiots simply because we happen to have some different tastes in video games. DAO and DA2 were used as references to help illustrate my point of how one can be bored by the mechanics of one and enthralled by those of the other, and be unfairly ridiculed for doing so. Now I realize I may have done so incorrectly, and for that I apologize.

Hell, I could easily say that those who prefer turn-based or pause-and-play games are a bunch of pansy-ass high-and-mighty bookworm dorks who have the reflexes of a slug, and would probably get slaughtered if he or she were to play a relatively easy action game like TMNT (or some such) since they couldn't plan ahead. Some others may do that, but I don't. But if I did, best believe I would get some very angry statements from a few people.

Hopefully that clears a few things up now.
Maybe they just don't have a good reason for that specific behavior. It could be a case of anger about the changes from Origins to Dragon Age 2 being generalized to the point where they also lash out at people who express enjoyment of the changes. That's just my guess, though.

You're being perfectly clear about what you're asking, by the way.
 

Smooth Operator

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Oct 5, 2010
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Well we have been over this thousands of times: the fight mechanics are just the tip of the iceberg, the game suffers from alot more issues.

As for combat, well on nightmare setting it's about the same as Origins(and I wouldn't call that all too tactical) but the problem comes with non-stop swarms of spawning enemies, all you tactics become meaningless because they just flood you with enemies to the point it's all just your standard MMO grind-fest.
So it's not even the fight mechanics themselves, just how this game was put together -> yearly stamp-out rush-job.

The sad part is many people have a preference for this rushed low quality production... EA will be pleased
 

veloper

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Jan 20, 2009
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Ha! If only DA2 and also many other "action-RPGs" really had been made into proper action games instead of half-assed crap.

DA2 takes the cake though.
I can dig a good action game, but a game requiring you to press only the attack button repeatedly, without any concearn for timing or what the opponent is doing, is NOT a good action sequence.

The sad thing is that a big part of the audience here gets more enjoyment out of mashing A button without thought and watching some sped up animations, than playing pure squad based tactics.

The end result is not a good action game, nor a better tactical game.
 

FieryTrainwreck

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Apr 16, 2010
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It's all about (mis)communication.

I can sit here and say "by forcing developers to limit some aspects of their design while streamlining gameplay, the success and longevity of this console generation has negatively impacted the type of games I like to play on my PC".

What do a lot of console-only gamers read? "You'd have to be an idiot to enjoy the dumbed down gameplay and shit graphics of a console, you retarded mouth-breathers. Go fuck yourselves." Bit of a disconnect there. Why can't I simply express my disappointment with the state of things without someone taking it as a personal attack?

More specifically, with respect to DA2, I don't believe there's anything inherently wrong with a good action game. I do think it's lame when a company takes one of the only games of its kind and dresses it up for mass consumption at the expense of an existing fanbase. It's not innovation because there are already sooo many "combat leads to cutscene leads to combat..." action games on the market. It's more like homogenization - all the games becoming the same in order to maximize sales. That's all well and good for a lot of industries, but I don't think it's healthy for creative ones like music, movies, comics, or video games. These industries thrive on variety, originality, and quality. Those are the things that speak to us as a collective people over the long haul.

Another thing: DA2, as a raw action game, isn't very good. Next to a legitimate action/rpg like Demon's Souls or Darksiders, DA2 plays like shit. It's the tactical play that makes DA games somewhat interesting, and that aspect was pretty well toned down for the sequel. It obviously plays much better on consoles now, but the PC experience is just meh.

If you've never played Origins on nightmare on a decent gaming PC, it's kind of hard to quantify the difference. I played the first 15 or so hours on 360 before switching to the PC version, and it was like night and day. Going from 1 to 2 on a console was nothing but good times. Making that same transition on PC felt like losing something that's relatively rare nowadays. That's sad.

Anyways, TLDR version: people get wrapped up in the things they like to the point where consoles and franchises are somehow integrated directly into their egos. It's pretty clearly insecurity manifesting itself as aggressive behavior; "if someone prefers things be different, he or she is making a declaration of war against my own preferences".
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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SageRuffin said:
TAGM said:
Well, RPG's are deeper then action games, generaly. And... Well, stupidity is in comparison to yourself.
In other words - RPG players may be thinking something along the lines of "Well, Action games are shallower then RPG's, so clearly any action fan must be dumber then me! that makes them dumb! Har har."
Course, action games nowadays are pretty popular for people to make a quick buck out of, so they make crap ones, hence the assumption that all of them are dence, as are the fans.
Zhukov said:
For the most part you're just looking at good old fashioned snobbery.
Goddamn... we gamers are more a bunch of entitled jackasses than I thought. D:
Um...

I'm sure whether you just agreed with me or called me an entitled jackass.
 

SageRuffin

M-f-ing Jedi Master
Dec 19, 2009
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Zhukov said:
SageRuffin said:
TAGM said:
Well, RPG's are deeper then action games, generaly. And... Well, stupidity is in comparison to yourself.
In other words - RPG players may be thinking something along the lines of "Well, Action games are shallower then RPG's, so clearly any action fan must be dumber then me! that makes them dumb! Har har."
Course, action games nowadays are pretty popular for people to make a quick buck out of, so they make crap ones, hence the assumption that all of them are dence, as are the fans.
Zhukov said:
For the most part you're just looking at good old fashioned snobbery.
Goddamn... we gamers are more a bunch of entitled jackasses than I thought. D:
Um...

I'm sure whether you just agreed with me or called me an entitled jackass.
More over I'm agreeing, but if it helps alleviate the confusion I called myself an entitled jackass as well.

I probably could've worded that better, so I apologize. :p
 

Kaanyr Vhok

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Mar 8, 2011
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veloper said:
Ha! If only DA2 and also many other "action-RPGs" really had been made into proper action games instead of half-assed crap.

DA2 takes the cake though.
I can dig a good action game, but a game requiring you to press only the attack button repeatedly, without any concearn for timing or what the opponent is doing, is NOT a good action sequence.

The sad thing is that a big part of the audience here gets more enjoyment out of mashing A button without thought and watching some sped up animations, than playing pure squad based tactics.

The end result is not a good action game, nor a better tactical game.
Exactly, DA:O needed more strategy not less. If they wanted to add action they could have followed FSW's lead.

Thats statbased and it looks and feels like a shooter.
 

hcig

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Mar 12, 2009
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If one more person tries to tell me dragon age 2 is an action game, im going to slap them right in the testicle

seriously, everyone keeps calling it a hack and slash, ive played have the game, and i would kill for it to be a hack and slash, instead of the boring ass autoattack WoW bs it is now.
what is wrong with you people? you (for some stupid reason) right click an enemy, and then sit back to wait for its death, ive tried spamming the mouse button, and it doesnt cut any faster.
 

SageRuffin

M-f-ing Jedi Master
Dec 19, 2009
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hcig said:
If one more person tries to tell me dragon age 2 is an action game, im going to slap them right in the testicle

seriously, everyone keeps calling it a hack and slash, ive played have the game, and i would kill for it to be a hack and slash, instead of the boring ass autoattack WoW bs it is now.
what is wrong with you people? you (for some stupid reason) right click an enemy, and then sit back to wait for its death, ive tried spamming the mouse button, and it doesnt cut any faster.
Hey, chill out with that. We're not talking about DA2 here. We're talking about how fans of action-oriented games are looked down as "thoughtless idiots who can barely breathe correctly".
 

Idocreating

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Apr 16, 2009
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Not sure about Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age 2 differences in their core combat, but I do know that Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 felt different.

Some people complained the complexity and choices had been dumbed down. I felt that the combat had been stripped of bloated choices and more refined into a fun experience. No need to wade through shitty inventory screens to get the ammo that does more damage to Geth, just hit a hotkey and ya done! The only downside I felt was the limited ammo system, which made certain classes on higher difficulty levels a colossal pain in the backside to play when fighting enemies with regenerating health/shields/barriers.
 

A Weakgeek

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Feb 3, 2011
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SageRuffin said:
So there is no space for different games? All games must be made the way that is slightly more popular. DA:O was an exellent game, too long though. Then comes DA2, switching to more action oriented gameplay. Why? Why not make it like the fans of the first one preferred? Why make it a sequel, if you want to take all the improtant elements away? If they want to make medieval Mass effect, make one. But don't call it Dragon age and decline the series a true sequel.