The last thing we watched, cartoon/animu edition

Phoenixmgs

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Cops fighting for the status quo is antithetical to half of cyberpunk. Shirow's stuff is good, but his stuff is pro-authoritarian in lots of ways.
1) Cyberpunk is a setting, not an ideology so the story can be from the perspective of any side and any side can "win".
2) Section 9 was not fighting to keep the status quo in place, they were deemed terrorists and hunted.
 

Asita

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1) Cyberpunk is a setting, not an ideology so the story can be from the perspective of any side and any side can "win".
2) Section 9 was not fighting to keep the status quo in place, they were deemed terrorists and hunted.
Towards the second point: ...Are you actually serious? Section 9 was a counter-terrorist task force that got framed as terrorists by the dirty politicians whose corruption they were blowing the lid on at the end of the first season, and ended with the rule of law prevailing, the crooked politicians ousted, and Section 9 exonerated.
 
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Casual Shinji

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Cops fighting for the status quo is antithetical to half of cyberpunk. Shirow's stuff is good, but his stuff is pro-authoritarian in lots of ways.
There was also just a lot more cop-centric anime and manga back in the 80's and 90's; most of Shirow's stuff, Cyber City Oedo 808, Gunsmith Cats, You're Under Arrest. Don't know if this was because of (Japanese) authoritarianism or because it was influenced by American media.
 

Gordon_4

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Towards the second point: ...Are you actually serious? Section 9 was a counter-terrorist task force that got framed as terrorists by the dirty politicians whose corruption they were blowing the lid on at the end of the first season, and ended with the rule of law prevailing, the crooked politicians ousted, and Section 9 exonerated.
That was the second season wasn’t it? Or was Season 2 the one with the massive nationalist movement?
 
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Gordon_4

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There was also just a lot more cop-centric anime and manga back in the 80's and 90's; most of Shirow's stuff, Cyber City Oedo 808, Gunsmith Cats, You're Under Arrest. Don't know if this was because of (Japanese) authoritarianism or because it was influenced by American media.
Uh, Gunsmith Cats is about a bounty hunter, not a cop. The ATF show up in episode one and blackmail Rally into helping them because of the not entirely legal collection of arms in her basement.
 
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Casual Shinji

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Uh, Gunsmith Cats is about a bounty hunter, not a cop. The ATF show up in episode one and blackmail Rally into helping them because of the not entirely legal collection of arms in her basement.
Yeah, but it has the hard boiled cop vibe and apes most of the American cop show/movie aesthetic. Rally is maverick cop in all but name.
 

BrawlMan

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Uh, Gunsmith Cats is about a bounty hunter, not a cop. The ATF show up in episode one and blackmail Rally into helping them because of the not entirely legal collection of arms in her basement.
Yeah, but it has the hard boiled cop vibe and apes most of the American cop show/movie aesthetic. Rally is maverick cop in all but name.
Funny enough, the manga version of Rally is a bit different from what we see in the OVA. Manga_Rally has little to no problems working with cops or nearly any other authority such as the ATF, FBI, etc. It's even pointed out in the manga she has nothing but respect for most of them. While OVA_Rally does not care much for authority aside from some friends that are in the Chicago P.D (the ones we see in the OVA are in the manga too). Then again, the only reason OVA_Rally was so hostile to the ATF guy in the beginning was due to how shady he was already acting to begin with, in her gun shop.

Another piece of trivia most of you might know or remember is while this never comes up in the OVA, Rally is canonically lesbian in the manga. It comes up way later in the manga's run.
 
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Casual Shinji

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Another piece of trivia most of you might know or remember is while this never comes up in the OVA, Rally is canonically lesbian in the manga. It comes up way later in the manga's run.
Yeah, I remember the main villain in the manga being a butch lesbian who wanted to enslave Rally. I have 7 of the issues myself, but I don't know if it's the complete story - it's been decades since I read it.
 

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Yeah, I remember the main villain in the manga being a butch lesbian who wanted to enslave Rally.
That part is Gunsmith Cats Burst. You're not going to find too many fans of that one, nor the controversial ending. It gets really depressing and out of character and tone for the series. Most fans will tell you stop after finishing the original run. I have no idea what Konichi Sonada was thinking and why he would end it that way.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Towards the second point: ...Are you actually serious? Section 9 was a counter-terrorist task force that got framed as terrorists by the dirty politicians whose corruption they were blowing the lid on at the end of the first season, and ended with the rule of law prevailing, the crooked politicians ousted, and Section 9 exonerated.
It's been awhile since I've watched the show, but skimmed the general plotline so correct anything that's wrong. Section 9 going after crooked politicians is keeping the status quo? They asked the Laughing Man to join their team even.
 

Asita

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That was the second season wasn’t it? Or was Season 2 the one with the massive nationalist movement?
First season focused on the Laughing Man and his imitators (ultimately including politicians and companies that used him as a scapegoat to hide their own dirty laundry). Season 2 was the one that focused on the "Individual Eleven".

It's been awhile since I've watched the show, but skimmed the general plotline so correct anything that's wrong. Section 9 going after crooked politicians is keeping the status quo? They asked the Laughing Man to join their team even.
Ok, recap: Ghost in the Shell focuses on a Japanese intelligence department that operates under the Ministry of Home Affairs, known as Public Security Section 9. They are extremely skilled, have broad discretion and minimal oversight or public awareness in accomplishing their duty, making the most obvious parallel the Impossible Mission Force of Mission Impossible. Their focus is serious cyber crime, high profile murder cases, and unlawful acts from public officials.

During the first season, a lot of their efforts are focused on investigating the elusive Laughing Man, only for them to slowly realize that he wasn't a criminal mastermind or terrorist leader, but rather a one-off event with everything afterwards that was attributed to him being the work of copycats, including various companies and government officials to mask their own illegal acts. Section 9 ultimately discovered that the Secretary General was actually the one pulling the strings for the corporate terrorism that had been using the Laughing Man scandal as a smokescreen.

The Secretary General learns about this and leaks information to the press to cast Section 9 in a bad light before abusing the law to get Section 9 shut down, branding them as dangerous radicals in an effort to assassinate them and re-bury the evidence. This is done even as Aramaki is presenting the same evidence to the Prime Minister...who is incapable of taking action because it's immediately before the elections and the Sec-Gen's party would turtle up and stonewall any efforts to hold him accountable. Post-election, the PM discloses the evidence to the public, pegging the Secretary General as the ringleader of the Laughing Man scandal.

The actual Laughing Man was an anonymous hacktivist whose crime of passion was the incident that defined the Laughing Man's image. They do offer him a job for his hacking expertise, but on scale, that's no worse than the FBI doing the same with Frank Abagnale for his forging expertise.
 
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Satinavian

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1) Cyberpunk is a setting, not an ideology so the story can be from the perspective of any side and any side can "win".
2) Section 9 was not fighting to keep the status quo in place, they were deemed terrorists and hunted.
Cyberpunk is a genre, not a setting (at least if we ignore the TRPG of the same name).

But indeed GitS, especially GitS:SOC might instead belong to Postcyberpunk, which is a derivative setting that significantly reduces the Punk aspect and also tends to be not pure dystopia.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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First season focused on the Laughing Man and his imitators (ultimately including politicians and companies that used him as a scapegoat to hide their own dirty laundry). Season 2 was the one that focused on the "Individual Eleven".



Ok, recap: Ghost in the Shell focuses on a Japanese intelligence department that operates under the Ministry of Home Affairs, known as Public Security Section 9. They are extremely skilled, have broad discretion and minimal oversight or public awareness in accomplishing their duty, making the most obvious parallel the Impossible Mission Force of Mission Impossible. Their focus is serious cyber crime, high profile murder cases, and unlawful acts from public officials.

During the first season, a lot of their efforts are focused on investigating the elusive Laughing Man, only for them to slowly realize that he wasn't a criminal mastermind or terrorist leader, but rather a one-off event with everything afterwards that was attributed to him being the work of copycats, including various companies and government officials to mask their own illegal acts. Section 9 ultimately discovered that the Secretary General was actually the one pulling the strings for the corporate terrorism that had been using the Laughing Man scandal as a smokescreen.

The Secretary General learns about this and leaks information to the press to cast Section 9 in a bad light before abusing the law to get Section 9 shut down, branding them as dangerous radicals in an effort to assassinate them and re-bury the evidence. This is done even as Aramaki is presenting the same evidence to the Prime Minister...who is incapable of taking action because it's immediately before the elections and the Sec-Gen's party would turtle up and stonewall any efforts to hold him accountable. Post-election, the PM discloses the evidence to the public, pegging the Secretary General as the ringleader of the Laughing Man scandal.

The actual Laughing Man was an anonymous hacktivist whose crime of passion was the incident that defined the Laughing Man's image. They do offer him a job for his hacking expertise, but on scale, that's no worse than the FBI doing the same with Frank Abagnale for his forging expertise.
That doesn't go much against of what I remember. To me, the point is Section 9 went after the corrupt politicians and didn't just blindly follow orders so the status quo is kept, right? Just because a show's protagonists are apart of a counter-terrorism team doesn't mean the show's message is gonna be pro-authoritarian. The new Thor movie's message is more in keeping the status quo than SAC's message is IMO.


Cyberpunk is a genre, not a setting (at least if we ignore the TRPG of the same name).

But indeed GitS, especially GitS:SOC might instead belong to Postcyberpunk, which is a derivative setting that significantly reduces the Punk aspect and also tends to be not pure dystopia.
I don't see how the message of the cyberpunk work has to be anti-authoritarian. Yeah, GitS doesn't hit on some of the descriptions of the cyberpunk genre.
 

Asita

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That doesn't go much against of what I remember. To me, the point is Section 9 went after the corrupt politicians and didn't just blindly follow orders so the status quo is kept, right? Just because a show's protagonists are apart of a counter-terrorism team doesn't mean the show's message is gonna be pro-authoritarian. The new Thor movie's message is more in keeping the status quo than SAC's message is IMO.
As an official organization fulfilling their official mandate, they are part of that status quo, not opposed to it. Regardless, I care little for whether or not you would give them the label of "authoritarian". My objection was to you characterizing them as "deemed terrorists and hunted" (in context, a slanderous smear campaign to de-legitimize them) to dispute the idea that they were part of the status quo rather than trying to tear it down as per the 'punk' of cyberpunk, which focuses on marginalized members of society that are being crushed by the status quo.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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As an official organization fulfilling their official mandate, they are part of that status quo, not opposed to it. Regardless, I care little for whether or not you would give them the label of "authoritarian". My objection was to you characterizing them as "deemed terrorists and hunted" (in context, a slanderous smear campaign to de-legitimize them) to dispute the idea that they were part of the status quo rather than trying to tear it down as per the 'punk' of cyberpunk, which focuses on marginalized members of society that are being crushed by the status quo.
Honestly, Good Cops Rooting Out (some) Corruption in the Government is about as status quo as you can get: the government isn't the problem, the corporations aren't the problem, it's merely some bad apples you can remove that's the problem. The fact that the government has several nigh-unaccountable military geared super-soldier squads operating with full access to a totalitarian panopticon and a license to kill isn't considered a problem. They're the heroes after all.

Which can make for a fun time, sure. Cyberpunk it's not though.

EDIT: It probably doesn't help that SAC is about 2 political scandals that would barely phase the US government too. What, medical kickbacks resulting in dead and disabled people? The opioid "crisis". Refugees being manipulated, cast aside, and used for political stunts? Lmao, pick a border, Canada doesn't count.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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As an official organization fulfilling their official mandate, they are part of that status quo, not opposed to it. Regardless, I care little for whether or not you would give them the label of "authoritarian". My objection was to you characterizing them as "deemed terrorists and hunted" (in context, a slanderous smear campaign to de-legitimize them) to dispute the idea that they were part of the status quo rather than trying to tear it down as per the 'punk' of cyberpunk, which focuses on marginalized members of society that are being crushed by the status quo.
My bad, I just read an entry on the fandom SAC page I think to refresh my memory. I actually started rewatching it yesterday since it was brought up and haven't seen it in so long.
 

Gordon_4

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As an official organization fulfilling their official mandate, they are part of that status quo, not opposed to it. Regardless, I care little for whether or not you would give them the label of "authoritarian". My objection was to you characterizing them as "deemed terrorists and hunted" (in context, a slanderous smear campaign to de-legitimize them) to dispute the idea that they were part of the status quo rather than trying to tear it down as per the 'punk' of cyberpunk, which focuses on marginalized members of society that are being crushed by the status quo.
Actually my recollection is similar; someone in the government has Section 9 disbanded and its agents disavowed and they were being sought by the military. In fact they only got some of their critical evidence because the tachikoma tanks decided on their own to come back and help them.
 

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I finally finished Glitch Techs Season 1. Nice way to start and finish a season. Season 2 is more story arc focused from what I heard, so I will see how it goes. S1 is basically learning about world and seeing Mike and Five develop as characters and becoming better Techs. What I love about this show is that it's not afraid of its concept nor its audience. While GT does crack jokes, it's never mean spirited, nor hates and degrades the target audience. Each episode has a minor or major refence of some kind, but never interferes with the overall episode. So even if you are not a gamer, a person can still enjoy the show and stay for the characters and its concepts.

Now to Cyberpunk Edgerunners.
 

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Anyhoo I binged Cyberpunk: Edge runners this weekend. Not quite a "wow", but definitely a breath of fresh air to see anime written for adults. Its pretty much a must watch for anyone who misses the mangavision days of the cyberpunk anime heyday as well as any Cyberpunk 2077 fans. Its quite a shame how much better of a story this is than that the actual game. Worse it would have been a solid story for it with no changes. Makes me wonder if it has roots in the pre-keanu version of the game. Its same plot of the protagonist joining a cyberpunk gang, but with a much darker tone and a layered story where as the game was the typical bland heroes journey. 8.5/10