The New Oral Tradition
- Thread starter Greg Tito
- Start date
You guys REALLY need to spread your Roleplaying Wings a little, DnD doesn't have a good guide for "Roleplaying" because it's always been more about build optimization and tactical combat than it is about fleshing out a personality for a character. Sure you can roleplay, but it's purely freeform, Roleplaying itself isn't part of "the game" like it is in some other products, the new Dresden Files RPG and the Mouseguard RPG come to mind.
The title of this article is more accurate than the article itself. There is no "right" way to roleplay. Powergaming, or diceless. Third-person or first-person speak at the table. It all differs between groups and it mostly comes down to where you started.
One of the great things about roleplaying is that groups evolve based on the tendencies of their members and shared experience. Let's not try to codify that, because it would take away a great deal.
One of the great things about roleplaying is that groups evolve based on the tendencies of their members and shared experience. Let's not try to codify that, because it would take away a great deal.
Regarding a roleplaying guide, I think I did see the Roleplaying (or was it D&D?) for Dummies guide.
I think the "...for Dummies" series is pretty decent. They contain a wealth of information that doesn't confuse newbies, and yet is informative enough for those more experienced to use.
Gotta see if I actually have a copy...
I think the "...for Dummies" series is pretty decent. They contain a wealth of information that doesn't confuse newbies, and yet is informative enough for those more experienced to use.
Gotta see if I actually have a copy...
A player's guide to powergaming... How sad. This is the kind of thing that's kept me out of 4th edition- Apart from the incredibly 'MMO' style of rules, the way they're marketing the thing is just so insidious. Any day now they'll be coming out with Player's Handbook 4, with one new class and a variant elf that live on volcanos, or some such. I don't condone powergaming, but at least before you had to talk to some people, check out a website, have a sense of community about the whole thing. It's more disappointing than what Wizards is doing to Magic...
Version 3.5 has a dungeon masters guide II, which also explains several types of player personalities(Tactician, outcast and supercool being a few). I've always been a powergaming kind of player, myself, anyway. It fit in with my wizard character type(Power hungry, knowledge obsessed maniac).
Interesting read (finding most of your articles interesting though). And I share your wish for a good solid guide to roleplaying (with a focus on table-top roleplay). Seems almost every system has a few lines on them, but they always forget some part of the explanation or fail to see the bigger picture.
Personally I am engaged in Exalted roleplaying on a weekly basis, and while theres always room for powerplaying, the focus in our group has always been on roleplaying. The cause of this is ofcourse that all group-members are actually experienced roleplayers, that have learned the ropes from someone before joining the group. That said, I can see how people that just pick up the system will most likely forget a lot of the possibilities for deep and engaging roleplay, and solve everything with a show-off of the Exalted powers.
If only there was a book people would enjoy reading, that gives some guidance on how to be a contributing player in basically any campaign or setting. Guides for dummies are great, but except for the basics, they don't really hold that much depth, which might drown new roleplayers in a lot of more or less shallow information. Besides, the dummies guides dont really have the image (at least here in the Netherlands) of being good guides, and players are more likely to skip on that and just learn the system.
Personally I am engaged in Exalted roleplaying on a weekly basis, and while theres always room for powerplaying, the focus in our group has always been on roleplaying. The cause of this is ofcourse that all group-members are actually experienced roleplayers, that have learned the ropes from someone before joining the group. That said, I can see how people that just pick up the system will most likely forget a lot of the possibilities for deep and engaging roleplay, and solve everything with a show-off of the Exalted powers.
If only there was a book people would enjoy reading, that gives some guidance on how to be a contributing player in basically any campaign or setting. Guides for dummies are great, but except for the basics, they don't really hold that much depth, which might drown new roleplayers in a lot of more or less shallow information. Besides, the dummies guides dont really have the image (at least here in the Netherlands) of being good guides, and players are more likely to skip on that and just learn the system.
Coincidentally enough a few of us did spend last Saturday night rolling up characters for Dresden Files. Although I admit the process did make me yearn a little for random dice and pick a class 5 minutes character creation, a full session and we still were not quite finished. We had just completed a Spirit of the Century one-off to gear up for trying this though, so we should be able to dive right in once we get passed the character and city generation hurdle.PedroSteckecilo said:
It's an eternal struggle: Roleplaying vs Rollplaying.
And then there's the argument of Powergaming vs Good Strategy and development.
An effective party is not always one that has been metagamed and twinked beyond control; I had a D&D 3.5e game where I played a monk who happened (no conspiracy) to befriend a Priest of Kord (deity of heroic feats strength and competition.) and together we rocked face because we covered for each other's weaknesses nicely.
Compared to the typical Chaotic Neutral (solely to avoid Holy Weaponry and spells) Grief Assassin who abuses every possible chance to either mindfuck or backstab the party. You know the type; that guy/gal who always plays the "not-evil" evil prick whose sole job is to derail the game.
Betrayal for in character and plot reasons is fine. Maybe even as a prank every once in a while.
But I've seen groups where it happens every game. Or players whose sole existence is to abuse loopholes within the game logic (Leadership, Divine Metamagic stacking, Warlock crossovers, Bag-of-rats-Fighters...) only to screw things up.
My last concern is with tokenism. I literally had a player who "figured out" the spellist for 3.5 to the point where he would berate or question anyone who deviated from it.
My point in all of this: Powergaming is addictive.
Keeping a careful balance of power and risk in your games is a lot harder than it looks if you're the DM.
And then there's the argument of Powergaming vs Good Strategy and development.
An effective party is not always one that has been metagamed and twinked beyond control; I had a D&D 3.5e game where I played a monk who happened (no conspiracy) to befriend a Priest of Kord (deity of heroic feats strength and competition.) and together we rocked face because we covered for each other's weaknesses nicely.
Compared to the typical Chaotic Neutral (solely to avoid Holy Weaponry and spells) Grief Assassin who abuses every possible chance to either mindfuck or backstab the party. You know the type; that guy/gal who always plays the "not-evil" evil prick whose sole job is to derail the game.
Betrayal for in character and plot reasons is fine. Maybe even as a prank every once in a while.
But I've seen groups where it happens every game. Or players whose sole existence is to abuse loopholes within the game logic (Leadership, Divine Metamagic stacking, Warlock crossovers, Bag-of-rats-Fighters...) only to screw things up.
My last concern is with tokenism. I literally had a player who "figured out" the spellist for 3.5 to the point where he would berate or question anyone who deviated from it.
My point in all of this: Powergaming is addictive.
Keeping a careful balance of power and risk in your games is a lot harder than it looks if you're the DM.
![Fr]anc[is](https://eg-forums-escapist-data.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/data/avatars/l/93/93202.jpg?1620797781){kind=avatar}
DON'T YOU BE DISRESPECTING LIDDA! Lidda is awesome!
I haven't payed attention since 4E (spent too much on 3.5 to change), but I bet the guys on the WotC character optimization board could beat everything in that book in their sleep.
Those are lawful stupid. It's a stereotype, accurate most of the time I admit. And if your DM nerfs you that easily, he's stupid stupid. I prefer to think of paladins as being good lawful, instead of the other way around. It's a big change.versoth said:
I haven't payed attention since 4E (spent too much on 3.5 to change), but I bet the guys on the WotC character optimization board could beat everything in that book in their sleep.
I agree and I'm happy that it's getting recognition - the 4E DMG is outstanding, finally a handbook more than a rulebook. I know most of those advices have been circulating on forums and third party stuff like Robin's Guide, but this really is the most accessible and comprehensive collection of them.
And I really don't see a need for a rollplaying vs. roleplaying argument. I'm a dedicated powerplayer and I still create a 5-page psychological analysis for all my characters.
EDIT: Oh, right. Me and my friends will begin a new campaign this friday, and three of them have characters that the Strategy Guide quizzes suggested to them. I'm interested to see how that goes. The book is kinda cute, though it basically repeats what our group has been discussing the last few years in after-session talks, and I suppose many other groups have as well. Still, nice to see other players have a shortcut to the knowledge, especially in such a user-friendly book.
And I really don't see a need for a rollplaying vs. roleplaying argument. I'm a dedicated powerplayer and I still create a 5-page psychological analysis for all my characters.
EDIT: Oh, right. Me and my friends will begin a new campaign this friday, and three of them have characters that the Strategy Guide quizzes suggested to them. I'm interested to see how that goes. The book is kinda cute, though it basically repeats what our group has been discussing the last few years in after-session talks, and I suppose many other groups have as well. Still, nice to see other players have a shortcut to the knowledge, especially in such a user-friendly book.
I have to agree with the article's praise for the 4E DMG's description of "player types" - it basically summed up the psychological insights that took me a decade to accumulate on my own back in the 1E-2E days. I hadn't seen the Strategy Guide, though - it sounds unfortunately narrow in its conception of strategy (although there will doubtless be a Strategy Guide 2 in the works to correct this deficit since there can never be enough rulebooks/editions/ways to squeeze more dollars from RPG players).
Frankly, optimal "builds" etc has evolved with each edition of D&D, it's always been there. The first iterations were a optimal mixing of classes, spells etc. Now, with feats, epic levels etc, it simply becomes a more involved process. Personally, I feel that codifying it is both a good and bad thing. It can be a handy tool to provide clarification to the player and DM on the synergies of choosing feat A with feat B. Smart players can figure this stuff out anyhow, so clarifying it, isn't necessarily a BAD thing. Given the tactical nature of D&D at its core, it's a natural evolution. The bad part is it may encourage players to put themselves in these conveinent videogame like packages versus mixing/matching feats/powers based on character background etc, aims.
Also, don't get me started on how poorly Paladins are typically handled by the system and by a lot of DMs (and players as well). I don't even use the stock Paladin rules in my game, I call them Templars and use a mix/match of Paladin rules and my own to give them a wider range of acceptable play. WoTC really should stop shoe-horning the class.
As far as the anti-party, party-member. That needs to be 86ed by the DM quick. Sure, there's time where goals don't align etc etc but if its a every session thing, the other players will grow tired of it and it just makes things un-fun.
Also, don't get me started on how poorly Paladins are typically handled by the system and by a lot of DMs (and players as well). I don't even use the stock Paladin rules in my game, I call them Templars and use a mix/match of Paladin rules and my own to give them a wider range of acceptable play. WoTC really should stop shoe-horning the class.
As far as the anti-party, party-member. That needs to be 86ed by the DM quick. Sure, there's time where goals don't align etc etc but if its a every session thing, the other players will grow tired of it and it just makes things un-fun.
Thanks for the shout-out, Greg! I have to quibble with this part, though: "The Player's Strategy Guide offers a few tips on how to be a good roleplayer, but, in contrast to the DMG, there are just a few pages and they feel tacked on at the end of the book." What, no love for the Getting Into Character or Characterization Builder sections at the start of the book? (Perhaps I should be less eager to claim credit for the latter pun.)
Re: guides to roleplaying in general, I definitely think there's an imbalance between the many resources to help DMs vs. the relatively few for players. I highly recommend Graham Walmsley's Fight On #8 [http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/play-unsafe/3646830] I did an essay about how his approach meshes well with the randomness-based improv of old-school D&D, with its wandering monsters, morale checks, and reaction rolls.
Re: codifying play, for sure the ideal is to expose people to a lot of different ways of doing things so they can make an informed choice about what works for them. Podcasts are a great way to do this that's an extension of the oral tradition and offers some unique advantages; Zak has a blog post at D&D with Porn Stars that I can't put my finger on right now where he talks about the great virtue of hearing or watching other people's actual play is that you get to see how other gamers roll in a way you couldn't even by playing with them at a convention or whatever, since your presence in the game would change it.
Re: guides to roleplaying in general, I definitely think there's an imbalance between the many resources to help DMs vs. the relatively few for players. I highly recommend Graham Walmsley's Fight On #8 [http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/play-unsafe/3646830] I did an essay about how his approach meshes well with the randomness-based improv of old-school D&D, with its wandering monsters, morale checks, and reaction rolls.
Re: codifying play, for sure the ideal is to expose people to a lot of different ways of doing things so they can make an informed choice about what works for them. Podcasts are a great way to do this that's an extension of the oral tradition and offers some unique advantages; Zak has a blog post at D&D with Porn Stars that I can't put my finger on right now where he talks about the great virtue of hearing or watching other people's actual play is that you get to see how other gamers roll in a way you couldn't even by playing with them at a convention or whatever, since your presence in the game would change it.
The first edition of AD&D specifically spoke out against powergaming, and recommended to the DM that if one of the players powergames too much (they didn't call it that but the meaning is the same, i.e. take everything with the best stats and ignore role-playing) then to use his discretion to take the player down a few notches.
Times change.
Times change.
I knew Wizards had gone all-out ridiculous MMO-style with 4th edition, but cover art by that guy from Penny Arcade?? Lawls... Ugh.
Anyway, I'm not sure discussing whether or not Wizard is sending conflicting messages with these two books (roleplaying vs. rollplaying) is fruitful, because obviously their only motivation for releasing this Strategy Guide can be boiled down to "$$$". I really don't think contradicting themselves on the style of the game trumps more money.
Anyway, I'm not sure discussing whether or not Wizard is sending conflicting messages with these two books (roleplaying vs. rollplaying) is fruitful, because obviously their only motivation for releasing this Strategy Guide can be boiled down to "$$$". I really don't think contradicting themselves on the style of the game trumps more money.