The Prequels don't Deserve to be Flogged Anymore

lucky_sharm

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DeimosMasque said:
lucky_sharm said:
As for your final question, yes I can because lightsabers only comprised a very small fraction of the action depicted in the original trilogy. What I remember are Luke and Han's banter while infiltrating the Death Star, the cantina scene where Han blows up Greedo, Han's solo scene talking to another Stormtrooper on a mic, Han and Luke and Obi-wan on the Millennium Falcon talking about the Force, the scene where Owen and Luke are picking out the droids, the trash compactor scene, Han chasing after a gang of troops like a mad man and running away afterwards, Luke and Leia swinging over a large chasm, the Trench Run, and the aftermath celebration where the entire cast embraces one another.

Notice how almost all of the above scenes I mentioned consist primarily of dialogue? What interactions in the prequel trilogy do you remember where characters are just going back and forth on one another where there wasn't any battle going on? Were they just sitting down on chairs talking, standing on floating platforms while talking, pacing slowly from one area to another while talking?
And that's just A New Hope. When you get to Empire it nearly triples in memorable moments (hell every scene with Yoda is a memorable thing.) Return a but less but that's because the movie gets a bit slow after Tattonine is over.

To be fair looking back, while I'm not really much a fan of the Prequels, @zegram33 each movie does have some great little scenes here and there that I find to be memorable for the -right- reasons (as in good moments that aren't remembered because of how bad or boring they were Pod Racing and 'Yippie' from Phantom come to mind)

In Phantom Menace - The first "I'm cold" scene with Anakin and Padme when they are heading to the Capital, is probably one of the only scenes where the young actor really showed he could potentially act given the right director. There's a lot of emotion and pathos there. The only other one I can think of off the top of my head that has always hit me is during the final Duel.

When the energy barriers go up and Qui-Gon and Darth Maul are separated. Qui-Gon immediately begins to meditate, enhancing his calm and becoming one with the Living Force. And Darth Maul paces like a caged animal to keep his aggression and passions inflamed... to stay with the Dark Side. Everything else that did go wrong with that movie, that scene did the most to show the difference between the Light and the Dark. The Serene and the Passionate.

The Clone Wars is a bit harder because the Anakin and Padme's romance is so backwards and awkward (the one trained by a monk order not to love pushes for a relationship, an unattached Senator keeps reminding him it's forbidden always seemed backwards to me.) But I would say one scene always hit me... and it's pretty much at the end. The Prototype Star Destroyers and cruisers taking off from Coruscant as Palpatine, Bail Organa and others watch. Just as Organa shakes his head and smashes his fist on the railing, a version of the Imperial March plays... it's perfect because you've been cheering on the Clone Troopers because they were helping the Jedi... you forgot what they would become, and what is happening right now. That subtle music cue sells it.

Revenge of the Sith. The first long shot is awesome, but it's CGI so it's not as impressive as other long continuing shots. But it is memorable and a good shot, even if the more slapstick and silly stuff that comes after it clashes with the tone of the rest of the movie. The scene at the Opera with Palpatine and Anakin has the one great moment "Where can I learn this power?" the response: "Not from a Jedi." Now for two unpopular ones... The Scene where Mace initially confronts Palpatine and lets out the lightsaber. In some ways its the wrong thing because in Return the Emperor basically viewed a lightsaber as a toy, a Jedi's weapon. But man that scene and scream is so cool.!

The other unpopular one is... I love Revenge's reveal of Dark Vader (except for the Nooooooooo!) I think seeing Anakin burned and destroyed (btw why did the lava only burn by proximity when they were done fighting?) And slowly rebuilt and then asking about his wife was perfect. The rest was sort of bad, but acceptable.


So there. As a 34 year old. Who saw all three Prequel movies in the theaters. I just listed the moments that were memorable to me that didn't involve lightsaber battles.
I'll grant that George Lucas is a decent idea man, and throughout the prequel trilogy you can see tiny glimpses of legitimate potential.

Problem is that he doesn't want ANYONE to tamper with his vision...even though the reason why the original trilogy was so successful was because other people were able to challenge George creatively.
 

Mahorfeus

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I think the Nostalgia Critic captured a lot of my thoughts. I honestly think there are enough good things in the prequels to redeem the stupider shit that was in them. It's still the inferior trilogy, but I do think the movies were fine for what they were.

 

UsefulPlayer 1

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Can we PLEASE talk about Luke's fight with Vader at the end of Episode V.

Really Luke?! Why are you swinging your lightsaber at objects that have already hit you!

That was the only problem with the lightsaber fight scenes in the original series.
 

Phuctifyno

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canadamus_prime said:
It's not so much that the prequels don't deserve it, 'cause they did, but the fact that that particular dead horse has been flogged so much that all that remains is a blood stain and the occasional giblet.
Because no prequel discussion should ever be held without their mention, I have to bring up the Plinkett Reviews.

I think you're right because the argument is basically over. There is nothing of any worth that one can criticize about those movies that the reviews didn't cover; they are (for all intents and purposes) the final word. Either you dislike the prequel trilogy for some of or all of the reasons mentioned therein, or you accept their excessive stupid and enjoy them anyway.

To argue at this point is to just talk in circles. I don't care how lazy it is, if ever I happen into an argument I'll usually just link to the reviews instead of trying to make a point. If you haven't watched them, you're behind on the conversation and only contributing to the echo chamber.

Also: "I got my cat pregnant!"

KazeAizen said:
Nothing is above criticism but that's not what people do with those movies anymore. At this point people bash on the prequels just to bash on them just to remind everyone of how "bad" they were.
Yeah, because it's fun.
 

Ieyke

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KazeAizen said:
Ieyke said:
KazeAizen said:
George doesn't deserve it and those movies don't deserve it anymore.
They ABSOLUTELY deserve to be perpetually thrashed.

KazeAizen said:
They've made the rounds for the past decade and enough is enough.
Not even close to enough.

KazeAizen said:
I don't see why these movies are raked over the coals and are seen to have nothing of value within them
They're of negative value to the series. They literally HURT the value of the series.

KazeAizen said:
when honestly some of the stuff from the original trilogy doesn't hold up all that well either
It all holds up great, except where Lucas went back and dicked with it.

KazeAizen said:
(have you gone back and watched that fight between Obi-Wan and Darth Vader?).
Yes. Nothing at all wrong with it.

KazeAizen said:
So do you think we can just not do that when the time comes next year or does George and his creations deserve to be reminded again how "bad" the prequels were?
Nope. He deserves to be reminded 'til it's engraved on his tombstone.
You literally added nothing of value to the conversation. You gave absolutely no reasons whatsoever.
Reasons are self evident.
The topic does not merit discussion.
 

KazeAizen

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Ieyke said:
Reasons are self evident.
The topic does not merit discussion.
Reasons are not self evident. Why the heck doesn't this merit discussion which apparently it does because people have given reasons for it. Also the fact that we insist on raking them over the coals almost a decade after the prequels were finished I think does warrant some discussion. Like kind of the sad way people refuse to just let things stay dead for instance.
 

Hap2

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For all the problems with the prequels, I love the universe they helped to create. If it weren't for them, Star Wars Clone Wars wouldn't have existed - one of the finest speculative fiction shows I've ever seen.
 

Belaam

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The key problem with the prequels, aside from the plot holes, was simply that they are aimed at a younger audience. I is kid-friendly slapstick and racing, II is early teen romance, III is late teen angst with parental issues.

Whereas IV to VI were more of a maturing late teens/early 20s theme. IV Growing up, leaving home, V getting advanced education and using new skills, friends starting to get married, settling in to a life-long career, etc.

Hopefully VII - IX will focus on more mature themes, but with JJ at the helm, I doubt it.

At any rate, that transition from people growing up with watching characters become adults, switching tones to a younger focus was quite jarring. It may have been different for people who saw the earlier episodes as kids, but for me, it was like watching Harry Potter out of order.
 

lucky_sharm

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Belaam said:
The key problem with the prequels, aside from the plot holes, was simply that they are aimed at a younger audience. I is kid-friendly slapstick and racing, II is early teen romance, III is late teen angst with parental issues.

Whereas IV to VI were more of a maturing late teens/early 20s theme. IV Growing up, leaving home, V getting advanced education and using new skills, friends starting to get married, settling in to a life-long career, etc.

Hopefully VII - IX will focus on more mature themes, but with JJ at the helm, I doubt it.

At any rate, that transition from people growing up with watching characters become adults, switching tones to a younger focus was quite jarring. It may have been different for people who saw the earlier episodes as kids, but for me, it was like watching Harry Potter out of order.
I really don't get how people can excuse the prequels as being children's movies, not because they don't have childish elements (fart jokes and Jar Jar) but because of the poor direction and schizophrenic tone.

In the prequels you have all of the following:
-intergalactic politics
-sleep inducing dialogue exchanges
-decapitations
-wanton slaughter of women and children
-awful, boring, sleep-inducing romance subplot
-assassination attempts
-slavery and implied rape

While indeed the original trilogy had things like torture, genocide, and forced amputations, there was always a playful and adventurous tone throughout the series. Even George Lucas himself admitted that he "went too far in a few places" when test screening Episode 1 The Phantom Menace, when one of his pointed out the jarring tonal shifts between Jar Jar comedy and Qui Gon dying.

Mcoffey said:
I'd hate to see what would happen to the people who scream about the prequels if they saw a movie that was actually bad. I don't think their little hearts could take it.

The prequels aren't very good, hell, Episode II is pretty painful at times, but their pretty far from actual bad movies, like Transformers or Star Trek Into Darkness.

Having seen the aforementioned JJ Abrams film, I don't expect his Star Wars movies to be any better.
On the contrary I've seen maaaaaany bad movies like the latest Die Hard, all of the Bayformers, and all of the Twilights. The prequel trilogy is just utterly boring and painful to watch with exceptions to the unintentionally hilarious moments like the love dialogue between Padme and Anakin and Yoda jumping around with his lightsaber.

And say what you like about JJ Abrams Star Trek films, as a director he actually knows how to film exciting, fast paced scenes.

 

Schmeiser

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That is why i only watched the prequels once and i was a kid so anything that was star warsy was fuckin awesome to me then. So i'll never give it a second go since i know ill prolly hate the movies. It happened with the new DBZ animated movie, the first time my fanboyism carried me and i thought it was awesome the second time i just thought it was pure shit
 

RaikuFA

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Jar Jar Binks you guys. Jar Jar Binks. Hell the Phantom Edit is considered pretty damn good.
 

Ieyke

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RaikuFA said:
Jar Jar Binks you guys. Jar Jar Binks. Hell the Phantom Edit is considered pretty damn good.
Phantom Edit is...decent.
It certainly does a LOT to improve Episode 1, but it's still not remotely NEAR pretty damn good.
 

Casual Shinji

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Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
That's amusing, using Matrix as an example. Matrix looked silly in all three movies. It never felt realistic. It was kinda you know, the obvious intention of the movies. Its why it looks a shitload more realistic when he's in Zion. Using Matrix as an example of real looking is like using anime japanese dubs as examples of natural voice acting.
Yeah, missing the point of what I was saying. The Matrix looked over the top and supernatural, but it looked like REAL people doing those over the top and supernatural things. In the fight scenes of the first movie the characters were on wires and flipping about, but it was real actors doing it. That's what made it exciting, seeing real physical people in real physical environments do all this crazy shit. That's generally the purpose of movie stunts and fight scenes.
 

V4Viewtiful

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Denamic said:
Some people grew up with these movies. They fantasized about Star Wars when they were awake and dreamed about it when they went to sleep. The prequels were bad and severely failed to satisfy the expectations of people who has been fans for decades. The prequels will be hated as long as the original trilogy is loved.
not exactly the failure all in their own :p

With no comparison to old they are rather lame but ambitious movies.

Let's hope for no lenses flare in the new movies, at least ;)
 

BloatedGuppy

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KazeAizen said:
Reasons are not self evident.
More to the point, reasons have been given many, many, many times on this subject, to the point where even people who passionately hate the prequels are a little exhausted at kicking more dirt onto them. Its a point you raise continually, with extraordinary defensiveness, so it's more than a little disingenuous that you'd demand people substantiate arguments on why they felt the prequel films were bad in one breath while bleating about ten years of bottomless criticism on the other.

KazeAizen said:
Why the heck doesn't this merit discussion which apparently it does because people have given reasons for it.
"Stop hating what I like" is just as bankrupt a foundation for a discussion as "Stop liking what I hate". All you've done is started another prequel discussion, in which the same talking points are going to be raked over. Talking points that, according to your OP, already frustrate you. I'm not entirely sure what your goal was here. There is no statute of limitations on criticizing poor films, especially when said films almost torpedoed one of if not the most popular and enduring franchises in film and merchandising history.

KazeAizen said:
Also the fact that we insist on raking them over the coals almost a decade after the prequels were finished I think does warrant some discussion. Like kind of the sad way people refuse to just let things stay dead for instance.
Again, there is no statute of limitations on criticism. Shall I start a thread demanding that people stop criticizing Gigli? How about Howard the Duck? Ishtar? When DOES the timeline for criticism elapse? What if I just saw the prequels for the first time yesterday? Could I criticize them then? Or would I have missed my window?

While I applaud your extraordinary ability to find merit in three absolutely worthless films, your enjoyment of them does not render someone else's loathing of them moot. I understand that some people here watched them as children, and were enthralled by Anakin's "Yipees" and Jar-Jar's "Meesas" and found the tensionless CGI apocalypse of the action sequences bedazzling. I'm sympathetic to that. Hell I saw Willow as a kid and really liked it for years, despite the fact it's hilarious garbage. Everyone has their sentimental favorites, I get it. And I understand that with some old grognards nothing will ever be good enough, and they'll sniff with disdain at every new attempt to replicate their cherished properties. But dude, if any films made over the last two decades merit harsh criticism, it's those fucking Star Wars prequels. George Lucas has absolutely no idea how to write dialogue (and hasn't since his career began). He has no sense of composition or pacing. He has no ability to coax good performances out of actors. He has no sense for when to dial back excess, or how to create tension, or foreboding, or pathos. Where once his worst impulses might havebeen reigned in by other talents on set, the man became too important to criticize. Extremely talented people do not function well without any oversight, never mind borderline hacks with overactive imaginations.

They served a reasonable purpose as 2 hour long toy commercials that made their money back, but given the original trilogy were tentpole films that weren't surpassed in domestic box office for something like 20 years, they dramatically underperformed. The only film in the top 20 earners was Phantom Menace, riding on 30 years of anticipation and hype. Sith barely makes the top 40, and the second film didn't even surpass the the 1977 original. So from a commercial standpoint they had to be seen as disappointing, from a critical standpoint they were pilloried (after their puffy, gentle initial reception), and from a popular/fanbase perspective they're largely viewed as abominations.

So by all means, like the prequels. That's your right. Somewhere out there is someone who loves the shit out of Trolls 2. There is something for everyone, and no one can tell you that you are WRONG for liking the prequels. Just like you can't really tell people to stop disliking them, no matter how much the criticism irks you.