The Problem with Piracy...

SenseOfTumour

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Just to put a different angle on things, do we, the gamers demand games that cost $2-3 million to develop?

Would we buy a game for $60, or buy the same game for £30 with lesser graphics and a soundtrack by unknown bands and non celebrity voiceovers?

I'll admit I've pirated things before, but a lot of it does simply come down to price, and the only things I've bought new at release date for full price are the WOW expansions as you get left behind if you don't and they don't tend to go on 'sale' anyway.

It's not an ideal analogy, but I picked up Saint's Row 2 for £5 in the Direct2Drive sale, now I'd considered it before, but £30 isn't a throwaway amount of money, and I wasn't sure how it would run on my PC, and of course you can't take back PC games for a refund.

However, even if it had been £10 I would have gone for it and taken a punt on the game. Surprisingly I'm well below the min specs and it runs really nicely, however many people have had a lot of trouble. (I don't even have a dual core, just a 1.8ghz Sempron.)

Of course, value for money is relative, and I'm sure if I was earning £40,000 a year, I'd be buying a lot of full price games and playing em for a couple of days before they sat on my shelf forever. But as it is, there's a lot of people out there, especially now, who really have to think before they can choose to spend their remaining spare cash on a new game.

To me, the answer is to massively cut dev costs, and make the games more financially appealing to the mass market, I don't think I'd pirate anything at £10/$20 per game, but £50 for something I might only enjoy for a couple of hours, I could get drugs n hookers for that :D (not that I would)
 

SenseOfTumour

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Rutawitz said:
jboking said:
Rutawitz said:
maybe if games werent so fucking expensive. do you think majority of teenagers have money to throw around? i know i dont
besides, these companies are trying to rip us off the same way we rip them off when we pirate
You have no clue how much money those companies actually make in profit on each disk do you? It's around $5. They aren't cheating you, they are charging a price that allows them to make a profit, which is the only thing that can justify even entering the market of video games.




Disclaimer: none of this was meant to be confrontational, simply informative.
do you have that the companies only make like 5 bucks? im not doubting you or calling bullshit. i just wanna see
I think sadly they do only make a small percentage on retail sales, although I'd hope they get a bigger cut on digital downloads, what with no need to pay for shipping, middle men, the stores, etc. Again, it's why I think it'd be good to aim to make your games less aimed at being flashy, hi graphics, celeb voiceover, kinda things, and more concentrated on making a solid game.

OF course 'Guitar Hero - College Band from Myspace' doesn't have the same appeal, I admit, but if you're not spending $3 million to make a game, you don't need to make $4 million back to turn a profit.
 

SpAc3man

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If something is worth my money it will get my money, otherwise it gets put in one of two categories; Either I download it for free because I like it but would not pay for it, OR I dont even bother cos its worthless crap to me. I will almost always test a game out by downloading it first to see if I like it. If I like it enough I will uninstall and delete everything except the .iso file and install from my paid for disk/download from Steam. Also if I have paid for a game in the past that for whatever reason the disk no longer works, I will download it, I paid for it so I should be able to play it
 

FinalHeart95

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I don't pirate, simply because I always thought of it as stealing. If you pirate, I'm not going to call the cops on you, I won't get mad at you, I might even still be friends with you. I just don't pirate myself.
 

Flour

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SenseOfTumour said:
Just to put a different angle on things, do we, the gamers demand games that cost $2-3 million to develop?
Most gamers don't(or didn't). It used to be(is?) a small group, one Microsoft tried to reach with the Xbox. It then became the standard for most publishers to get games with the latest graphics technology, which made the gaming media follow their example and give bad reviews to games that didn't use the latest graphics.

Without this.. graphics race, we wouldn't have the graphics we have today. And that's a good thing because it would have reduced production costs. Right now, a few people spend days creating an area the player is in for maybe 1 minute. Using older technology that same area could be made by 1 person with maybe 2 days work.
 

Necrofudge

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Well I agree with the idea but after I may or may not have started doing it, I actually felt sad that I've been blowing off my money for the past how ever many years buying games that were available for free. I could have used the money for college (although that probably wouldn't have been done in any scenario)
 

NeutralMunchHotel

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jboking said:
Note:No-one on their high horses, saying how it's me who is ruining the world. Unless you have evidence to back up your claim, I will remove your comment from my reality and substitute my own.
So... when someone tells you something that is close to the truth(people with your mentality, not just you) and don't need evidence to do it, you are going to cover your ears and yell

"Nah nah nah nah nah, I can't hear you! Nah nah nah nah nah."


Disclaimer: none of this was meant to be confrontational, simply informative.
No, not at all, and perhaps that wasn't the best wording.

I simply meant peple who say 'piracy is wrong' without putting any real thought behind why they think that that is so. You haven't done this, and I respect your point.
 

Bigsmith

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If any one lives in the Uk and ok with file sharing, googles PPUK (pirate party uk), its who i am voting for.

I do not pirate games, and do not digitaly (is there anyother way) download game for the shear fact of having them. I like the physical side of owning a game.

I am for file sharing and I hope the pirate party gets into power, although their short term ideas are good I just want to know their long term ideas.
 

Signa

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Gilbert Munch said:
The thing is, if you know you can get it (game, music, film, anything) for free, with absolutely no negative side effects, then why the hell shouldn't you do it? Because it's illegal. And it is, but so many people do it, why should you be the one chump who has to pay, especially when money is so tight now?
I know my comment is buried by 6 pages of arguing that I'm not even going to read, I'm still going to give you the answer to this question: You owe the people who gave you fun. How much you owe depends on the amount of fun you had, so if you can't justify full price, then get it on sale. Also, if you had a lot of fun, you probably are hoping for a sequel. You pretty much can dash any dreams of a sequel if you only pirate the game.

And don't call people who play fair "chumps." The only way to be a chump is to get ripped off by buying a crappy game. It's OK to try out your Layton games before you buy them to see if they were any good (I certainly did, there's been too many similar games that are piles of crap), but once you see it IS good, and that you like it, you owe the game makers the money to keep owning it. I have an R4 as well, but there are only a handful of games on my card that I can't justify buying. All the rest I bought after I downloaded them and enjoyed them thoroughly. I've even used the downloads to negate shipping time, because when you buy the game online, you have to wait for the game to arrive. That's precious wasted time that no one can justify me waiting for. Same can go for when you had to save up for your games, you could download, then save up. As long as you can play fair, you can enjoy the game and then buy it once you have the money. It's no skin off of anyone's nose.

Also, it's illegal to exceed the speed limit, but that doesn't stop motorists from going 5 or so over. Legality isn't a reason. It might keep you from doing some really awful illegal stuff, but it's not going to stop pirates on the internet, ever. I'd be shocked if you find me a person who quit cold-turkey when they found that the downloads they made were infringing on copyright, AND deleted all the files they downloaded because they didn't own them legally.
 

Antzon

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Games are luxury items, if you aint got the money,then dont play it. Play sports instead, its free...

People also justify using the current economic downturn as a reason, but thats a weak reason. Its like "I steal the plasma TV because i do not have enough money to buy one...." come on, if you do not have the money buy a normal budget tv instead.

Pirate that gives themselves reason to pirate are often bullshit themselves. I am not rich, i just save and read reviews before buying a game. And often, even if you cant afford the newest games, wait for the price to drop often in a month or two you will find them in the bargain bin.
 

grayjo

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Piracy isn't stealing... it is making an identical copy without paying the original owner.

Just say you invent a machine that can make duplicates of objects. You test it on your buddy's porche, and keep the second porche. Have you just stolen a porche?

edit: Not saying piracy isn't wrong... it's just not theft.
 

fleshBasedProcessor

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Gilbert Munch said:
Avaholic03 said:
Hey, whatever you gotta tell yourself. You could always, you know, get a better job to subsidize your expensive habits. Or get better at budgeting the money you have. Don't claim that piracy is your only logical option...you're just greedy and want more stuff for less money.
I can't help but feel you misunderstood my point.

The thing is, it's impossible to justify buying games once you have the means to get them for free. Try this: get a game for your birthday, then save up to buy it again. It's quite hard to do.
Perhaps you covered this later on, as I didn't finish reading this thread, but I think your previous statement is bullshit. Firstly, I would go see a movie a second time in theaters. For example District 9 was fucking brilliant. I liked it so much, even though I already had the movie and the plot line in my head, I went and so it AGAIN! Secondly, there are many times when I have pirated entire games, and then went out and bought the game. I ENJOY giving money to people I think deserve it. I pirated GalCiv II, and then went and bought the game, because I liked it so much, and I respected the company. I understand pirating from companies you don't like or don't trust, but by giving money to people you like, they will make more stuff you like! Its called the theory of supply and demand, you fuckwit.
 

Kubanator

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Ok. An architect draws the blueprints for a house. He sells them for individual use for 10$. You decide to make a photocopy of your friends blueprints. You have now taken the work that the architect took into making the blueprints and decided it's value was 0$. Meaning the plans are valueless. So you don't want them. But you do. So you would say they have value, but you take them for free anyways. The contradiction is written right there.

http://leasticoulddo.com/comics/20090925.gif
 

Samurai Goomba

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Legality does not equal morality.

That was for all you who think it does.

And with that, I have nothing more to add to this discussion, except that certain tossers need to have a little perspective and stay off those horses which are of exceptional height. Not everybody has your exact experiences or even lives in a place where legit copies of something can be easily purchased.
 

grayjo

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I'm not saying that piracy isn't wrong... but if you weren't going to hire that architect he wouldn't have gotten your $10 anyways... so it's not theft. It's some sort of arrogant exploitation. After you photocopied it nothing was different for either the architect or the other individual than it was before.

If I sold you a painting, and you let your friend make a copy of it because he liked it, did he steal it from me? Should he have to pay me money?
 

Kubanator

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Samurai Goomba said:
Legality does not equal morality.

That was for all you who think it does.

And with that, I have nothing more to add to this discussion, except that certain tossers need to have a little perspective and stay off those horses which are of exceptional height. Not everybody has your exact experiences or even lives in a place where legit copies of something can be easily purchased.
Morality =/= anything as morality is relative.

However, lets say we have an writer. He writes a phenomenal novel. Now you say: "I want that novel, but I don't want to pay for it". As luck would have it, it's on piratesbay. So you download it. What have you done? You've taken work that someone else did, claiming it has no value to you, even though it does, as you want it. You've taken the money that the author deserved for the work he did because of your own hypocrisy. To say that you should be able to take what isn't yours isn't moral in my opinion.

grayjo said:
I'm not saying that piracy isn't wrong... but if you weren't going to hire that architect he wouldn't have gotten your $10 anyways... so it's not theft. It's some sort of arrogant exploitation. After you photocopied it nothing was different for either the architect or the other individual than it was before.
Yes it was. You valued architect for a certain price, a value above 0$, as you actually want the plans. You then collected the work for a value less than what you valued it, making it a scam, or in other words, stealing. If you don't like the price he offers, you do not value the work as much as he does and therefore have no right to take it from him.

grayjo said:
If I sold you a painting, and you let your friend make a copy of it because he liked it, did he steal it from me? Should he have to pay me money?
Paintings are physical one-of-a-kind pieces. A copy of a painting =/= the original. No one would buy a copy of the Mona Lisa for 27$ million. We're talking about things that are infinitely reproducible like data or schematics.
 

grayjo

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Kubanator said:
grayjo said:
I'm not saying that piracy isn't wrong... but if you weren't going to hire that architect he wouldn't have gotten your $10 anyways... so it's not theft. It's some sort of arrogant exploitation. After you photocopied it nothing was different for either the architect or the other individual than it was before.
Yes it was. You valued architect for a certain price, a value above 0$, as you actually want the plans. You then collected the work for a value less than what you valued it, making it a scam, or in other words, stealing. If you don't like the price he offers, you do not value the work as much as he does and therefore have no right to take it from him.
The problem is your "thus scam thus theft". Say I trick/scam you into buying into a sucky timeshare... I misrepresented that deal and I wronged you. I didn't steal your money. You consented to give it to me. Scamming is not theft. Theft isn't some broad description that covers anything were someone is cheated out of something. Theft is the physical removal of something that wasn't yours. Let me put it another way...


I sell you a paper aeroplane for $1. Your friend imitates the design and makes his own paper aeroplane. Did he steal $1 form me?

Kubanator said:
Paintings are physical one-of-a-kind pieces. A copy of a painting =/= the original. No one would buy a copy of the Mona Lisa for 27$ million. We're talking about things that are infinitely reproducible like data or schematics.
Infinitely reproducible data cannot be "stolen" unless it leaves you without any data. If I could make an infinite amount of identical copies of physical items... would I be stealing them?