The rampant Sexualization in videogames

siomasm

New member
Jul 12, 2012
145
0
0
Utterly out of control! I mean, look at the dwarf in Dragon's crown! Dante in DMC? Kratos in god of war!

These musclebound men skew the public opinion of men, vastly oversexualizing us and making more realistically proportioned men feel both inadequate and disgusted, while women in turn expect that all men should be 6 foot tall, muscle bound, scantily clad giants grunting lustily from exertion upon opening doors, lifting heavy objects and defending them from potential rivals.

I for one demand realistic and proper portrayal of men in video games that gives realistic expectations, who's with me!?!
 

IceForce

Is this memes?
Legacy
Dec 11, 2012
2,384
16
13
Is this meant to be satire? Because if it is, it's not very good.

Also, relevant Critical Miss...

 

Andy Shandy

Fucked if I know
Jun 7, 2010
4,797
0
0
It might have worked better if you'd chosen more characters that were deemed attractive. Nathan Drake for example. I'm not sure how many people find Kratos sexy for example. But I don't know, maybe people are into literal white as the snow mass-murderers.

But...

 

Smeatza

New member
Dec 12, 2011
934
0
0
IceForce said:
Is this meant to be satire? Because if it is, it's not very good.

Also, relevant Critical Miss...

I always had a beef with that comic.
If somebody doesn't care about the fact your are on fire, until they themselves are on fire, are they not extremely self-centered?
"Well it was okay when it was happening to you but now it's happening to me we need to do something about it."

It's a compelling counterpoint in the way that it discredits the person who made the initial point as only being concerned with what affects themselves, and not concerned with ethics or morality, which is the way they present themselves.
 

Stephen St.

New member
May 16, 2012
131
0
0
Oh, cool, another thread with exactly the same issue discussed in probably over a thousand posts by now, without any change of the argument. Luckily, discussing is fun.

Smeatza said:
I always had a beef with that comic.
If somebody doesn't care about the fact your are on fire, until they themselves are on fire, are they not extremely self-centered?
"Well it was okay when it was happening to you but now it's happening to me we need to do something about it."

It's a compelling counterpoint in the way that it discredits the person who made the initial point as only being concerned with what affects themselves, and not concerned with ethics or morality, which is the way they present themselves.
I would like you to state the moral/ethical rules from which "You have to adress the problems of other people, even though they are perfectly capable of adressing them themselves" follows.

It is also worth noting that, despite apparently being "on fire" for years, Men quite seemed to enjoy the warmth until recently.
 

veloper

New member
Jan 20, 2009
4,597
0
0
Change the fire analogy to "hard work" and the two guys in the strip would have a point.
The analogy wouldn't be any less fitting for it, since sexualization in videogames has little in common with either of these things.
 

Savagezion

New member
Mar 28, 2010
2,455
0
0
Most male protagonists do fit the tall, dark, and handsome bill. It doesn't matter if some women dont find Kratos atrractive. Believe it or not, blondes with big hooters don't do much for me because I don't care much for blondes and dont care about cup size at all - but that don't mean big tittied blonde bimbos ain't a "thing". (Thanks 1980's, ya douchebag) I hate when I see brunettes dye their hair blonde and it is like automatic -2 to -3 points on a 10 point scale for me. Seriously, I like brown and black almost exclusively. Thanks Marilyn Monroe, you made every woman think blonde is sexier.
IceForce said:
Is this meant to be satire? Because if it is, it's not very good.

Also, relevant Critical Miss...

It may not be a compelling argument but it does point out that sexism may not be the causation of whats wrong. It could be simply feeding into commonly perceived fantasies. Men are stereotyped into liking cleavage. So much so that as a man, walking up to another man you don't know and simply saying "beer and titties" will likely generate an echo from them of "beer and titties". As such media feeds into this stereotype of men and offers titties. Women on the other hand don't advertise the desire to see banana hammocks and instead have chosen the stereotype of what I can best describe as "deeper meaning" (emotional bonding, maturity, etc. but with a taste for 'bad boys') not "Spritzers and Cocks". As such most male characters in all media are tall, dark, handsome, charming & witty, yet have some type of emotional/maturity/etc. problem that makes them a 'rebel' where they need a woman to help them understand this 'mysterious' part of them they can't for the life of them begin to comprehend. The male characters have deeper meaning because that is the fantasy of the stereotypical depiction of the ideal man. If women went around saying "Spritzers and cocks" we would probably see more alcoholic female characters and more male sexualization than we do now.

Something to consider is that while these stereotypes are generalized, they still have weight. The cheerleader outfit and Catholic school girls uniform are testaments to this type of thinking. These stereotypes exist because there is a truth to them - generally speaking. A friend of mine is married to a blonde former cheerleader who was raised in catholic schools and he couldn't be happier about it. No depth there, just regular ol' surface stuff and that is who he is. She too falls in line as he is a former alcoholic with repressed emotions yet is overall witty and many people are drawn to his character for some unknown reason. I don't think he is particularly charming but maybe his wit is part of it, I don't know. Either way these two are the stereotypes I described. It's uncanny the more I think about it - they popped in my head when I was writing this and now it fits more and more.

The point is though, they both do as they see society expects of them. There are many people like this out there. Society places pressures on both sides but the pressures are different because the fantasy's of each gender is different. Men are heavily stimulated sexually by visuals. A naked woman in front of us is foreplay and we are heavily stimulated. Women are heavily stimulated by scenarios and acts. Sex is more visually weighted for men, emotionally weighted for women. Granted not everyone falls in line to society's expectations, but consider the masses as that is who is being marketed to. Be it games, movies, etc.

You want something that doesn't cater to that view? Quit looking at AAA and Hollywood. Female action stars in movies are rare too and that is a much older medium. However, a female action star in the leading role doesn't bring in a big draw because action movies aren't sought out by women generally speaking. The only one I can think of right now is Hunger Games. There is more to this than sexism. However, by pointing out the stereotypical gender roles each gender assigns to themselves subconsciously probably makes me look like a patriarch to some or saying it is ok for society to be sexist. However, I am not saying that, I am saying that nature is inherently sexist by making men and women chemically different. We don't want different things, we want the same things differently. It is a duality that will never be "equal" because both sides are right. Does that mean put more titties in games? No, but it doesn't make titties in games wrong either as we kinda asked for them with our money and so far the market hasn't quit asking.
Now, we have a community contributing no money and shouting "quit giving them the titties they pay for" and it has turned into a morality issue. It is easy for a comic writer or a youtube video to grab one leg to stand on and cling to it for dear life as if that solves the issue but no one is going out there and looking at the multiple layers involved in what we all know is a cultural phenomena and we all know that culture has layers upon layers of crap in it.

The most annoying part of this is that the male perspective doesn't even matter and is often glossed over and ignored as bigotry. Oh you don't see a problem? You pig, Anita was right. One leg to stand on clinging for dear life. This whole topic is so absurdly annoying like watching 2 kids fight over a green crayon. Everyone grab the 1 leg you are gonna cling to and hold tight. It's "I saw it first" vs. "I had it first".
 

CloudAtlas

New member
Mar 16, 2013
873
0
0
SpunkeyMonkey said:
Ha ha ha ha, I actually like the thread & the point Siomasm :)

It wouldn't be so bad if sexualisation of lead roles hadn't been an industry standard since the entertainment industry was born, but it has, so I don't get why it's that big an issue?

Marlyn Monroe, James Dean, Bradd Pitt, Megan Fox, Sean Connery, Johnny Depp, Julia Roberts, etc. etc. - all designed with attraction in mind (whether it be from "I want to fuck them" POV, or "I want to be them" POV.) Even if they aren't to your taste, the motivation behind their image is always to attract buyers.

It's just a bog standard thing used to boost sales.
Thing is, "I want to fuck them" and "I want to be them" is a bit of a different kind of attraction.
 

EternallyBored

Terminally Apathetic
Jun 17, 2013
1,434
0
0
siomasm said:
Utterly out of control! I mean, look at the dwarf in Dragon's crown! Dante in DMC? Kratos in god of war!

These musclebound men skew the public opinion of men, vastly oversexualizing us and making more realistically proportioned men feel both inadequate and disgusted, while women in turn expect that all men should be 6 foot tall, muscle bound, scantily clad giants grunting lustily from exertion upon opening doors, lifting heavy objects and defending them from potential rivals.

I for one demand realistic and proper portrayal of men in video games that gives realistic expectations, who's with me!?!
Oh hooray another person that can't tell the difference between a good looking character and a sexualized one how original, another two of these and I get a free coffee at Starbucks

Ok that was a bit mean and I'm hoping this thread was totally sarcastic rather than trying to be a serious point. There is a great discussion out there to be had about negative portrayal of males in gaming, but part of that problem is not oversexualization, trying to equivocate the problems of male characters with female ones accomplishes nothing except destroying the chance of having a serious conversation about what negatives do effect male characters in fiction.

Male characters like Kratos, Nathan Drake, Male shepard, Ryu (pick any one), Marcus, Max Payne, are designed with different goals in mind. Most of them were designed to be good looking by some standard, same reason pretty much every hollywood star is at least good-looking if not gorgeous to some extent. But here's the catch and I'm going to repeat it in hopes it might sink into one person sometime in my life. Being good looking or attractive is not the same thing as being sexualized.

I repeat:

Good looking or attractive characters are not the same thing as sexualized characters.

Even if women were widely attracted to Nathan Drake and even if the designers purposely sat down at one point and said "how can we make this character attractive to women" that is still not what people are complaining about when they talk about oversexualization of women in games. People don't complain about the appearance of Lara croft in the new Tomb Raider (except that rape thing but that had nothing to do with her looks and was completely overblown anyway) and she is pretty damn attractive. That's because both men and women don't give two shits about a character just being attractive or good-looking that's not what anyone is complaining about, and trying to compare the two as if they are equivalent is dishonest at best.

What people complain about is the focus on selling sex and titillation through the advertising and gameplay itself. Nathan Drake isn't spontaneously losing his shirt so the camera can lovingly focus on his abs. Kratos doesn't have to act like a chippendale's dancer ala Bayonetta to use his moves, Male commander Shepard doesn't get random camera shots of his ass during cutscenes (but surprise surprise Miranda sure does), Master Chief isn't stuck into a skintight bodysuit for no reason other than to show off how good looking he may be, Ryu Hyabusa isn't jumping around in Ninja Gaiden with a lovingly rendered crotch bulge that shakes as he moves, hell men don't have an entire genre of games (ecchi) that are designed solely to sexualize them for female players enjoyment.

Sex sells, and most gamers are men, we won't know if that can change until someone starts seriously making AAA games to appeal to women over men. I don't really blame publishers and developers for that since it's their hundreds of millions of dollars they would have to invest, but at the same time I don't blame gamers for complaining as there is a potential market that is being unmet, and it is frustrating to see so many games made in a way that alienated part of its user base.

Now one final time, the kids at home can say it with me:

Good looking or attractive characters are not the same thing as sexualized characters.

And now you know, and knowing is half the battle.
 

lapan

New member
Jan 23, 2009
1,456
1
0
EternallyBored said:
Now one final time, the kids at home can say it with me:

Good looking or attractive characters are not the same thing as sexualized characters.

And now you know, and knowing is half the battle.
And different people have different definitions of what they deem as good looking and what they find sexualized
 

EternallyBored

Terminally Apathetic
Jun 17, 2013
1,434
0
0
lapan said:
EternallyBored said:
Now one final time, the kids at home can say it with me:

Good looking or attractive characters are not the same thing as sexualized characters.

And now you know, and knowing is half the battle.
And different people have different definitions of what they deem as good looking and what they find sexualized
Kind of irrelevant to the conversation, yes people have different standards of what they find attractive, but that was not the point I was making.

Go back to my example paragraph, men aren't getting the lingering camera shots and underwear reveals in games whether a particular person finds those things sexy or attractive is irrelevant, only that the developers spent time and money trying to sexualize these scenes and characters, or do you think the camera shots of Miranda's ass in cutscenes in Mass Effect were on accident. Maybe the developers were really trying to make a statement about the potential dangers of genetic engineering, but I somehow doubt it. Again whether or not the individual player found it attractive or sexy is irrelevant, the developers still designed it with that purpose in mind.

Sex sells and the developers and marketers purposely create material and situations to titillate as much of their targeted player base as they can, and here's a hint, their targeted player base is male. When that audience isn't titillated then the scene comes off as superfluous and can be tension breaking to the entire moment. Thus people complain about it.

Still has nothing to do with my point though Male characters are often designed to be good looking and even attractive, they still aren't being purposely designed to be sexualized, so trying to say that male characters being muscular is even in the same ballpark as what happens to female characters in many games is false, like I said there are problems with male representations in games, oversexualization isn't one of them.
 

IllumInaTIma

Flesh is but a garment!
Feb 6, 2012
1,335
0
0
EternallyBored said:
Good looking or attractive characters are not the same thing as sexualized characters.
Nicely put. Really nicely put.
<spoiler=This is attractive><img src=http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs48/f/2013/084/a/5/cut__chie_satonaka_by_estormwrath-d26hdxp.png><img src=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_x7TEv9abDCM/Siz3w6wHfLI/AAAAAAAAAS4/QE4DLPbApF0/s400/Lili_13.jpg><img src=http://download.minitokyo.net/Yukiko.Amagi.587090.jpg>
<spoiler=This is oversexualized><img src=http://mobi-wall.brothersoft.com/files/320240/i/12823643811710.jpg><img src=http://static.minitokyo.net/downloads/04/36/466804.jpg>
 

Lilani

Sometimes known as CaitieLou
May 27, 2009
6,581
0
0
siomasm said:
Utterly out of control! I mean, look at the dwarf in Dragon's crown! Dante in DMC? Kratos in god of war!

These musclebound men skew the public opinion of men, vastly oversexualizing us and making more realistically proportioned men feel both inadequate and disgusted, while women in turn expect that all men should be 6 foot tall, muscle bound, scantily clad giants grunting lustily from exertion upon opening doors, lifting heavy objects and defending them from potential rivals.

I for one demand realistic and proper portrayal of men in video games that gives realistic expectations, who's with me!?!
I haven't read all the posts just yet, so if anyone else has pointed this out already I apologize.

Those characters you pointed out? The dwarf, Kratos, Dante? They weren't made to be attractive to women. They were made to be attractive to men, specifically to tune into their desire for a power fantasy. Like so:


Those characters aren't "sexualized," they're made to fulfill the male power fantasy. And sexualized female characters are made to fulfill the male sexual fantasy. So there's your difference. The female characters are made for the male gaze, and so are the male characters. Perhaps Dante would be the most attractive of that bunch, but that's something rather inherent to most Japanese art styles anyway since they tend to focus on the eyes and more lean figures. But your Kratoses and your Marcus Fenixes? Yeah, they weren't made to titillate women.
 

Smeatza

New member
Dec 12, 2011
934
0
0
Stephen Sossna said:
I would like you to state the moral/ethical rules from which "You have to adress the problems of other people, even though they are perfectly capable of adressing them themselves" follows.
Errr what? I'm nor sure if I understand this sentence.
I'll try and respond relevantly.
You don't have to address problems from an ethical standpoint or for ethical reasons.
But if somebody presents themselves as being concerned with a problem for ethical reasons, but is then revealed to be concerned with the problem for only selfish reasons, then it discredits them.

Stephen Sossna said:
It is also worth noting that, despite apparently being "on fire" for years, Men quite seemed to enjoy the warmth until recently.
Well that's a broad generalisation.
One might say that women "enjoyed the warmth" of sexual harassment in the workplace for decades, but one would be wrong.
They just didn't have a voice.
 

oreso

New member
Mar 12, 2012
87
0
0
Arguing about what people find attractive is kinda dumb. People find different things attractive.

There are certainly lots of characters who are designed to be attractive to women. Women who like different things, even.

Ditto for the reverse, albeit more of them.

I strongly believe the 'sexual fantasy' vs. 'power fantasy' divide is really pretty arbitrary. If I look on the cover of romantic fiction novels, I see hunks there. If I see a hentai website with Dante et al, I see hunks there too. If I see cosplayers dressed in candyfloss and wishes, I hear them saying "I like the character, she's powerful, sexy and cool". These tastes might not be your tastes, but that isn't because your tastes represent a universal truth.

---

Folks just seem to care more about attractive women though. They seem to drive more sales (so there's more of them), and more rage.

I've seen folks look at images of scanty clad men and women -side-by-side-, and still only complain about the women. I mean, folks are free to complain, but femaleness does seem to be so crazily hyperscrutinised compared to any other issue (maleness, queer stuff, race, etc).

Gender roles in videogames are getting more diverse all the time. I'm sure soon enough we will have more than a couple of games with ugly, stupid, lazy and evil women (to go with the endless sexy, sassy ones), and more than a couple with unabashedly gorgeous guys (to go with Dante, Raiden, et al).

The answer isn't to shame folks who like different stuff to you though. Their games do not harm you.
 

lapan

New member
Jan 23, 2009
1,456
1
0
Lilani said:
Those characters aren't "sexualized," they're made to fulfill the male power fantasy. And sexualized female characters are made to fulfill the male sexual fantasy. So there's your difference. The female characters are made for the male gaze, and so are the male characters. Perhaps Dante would be the most attractive of that bunch, but that's something rather inherent to most Japanese art styles anyway since they tend to focus on the eyes and more lean figures. But your Kratoses and your Marcus Fenixes? Yeah, they weren't made to titillate women.
People keep calling them power fantasies, but i certainly don't know a lot of people who actually want to look like the Kratos's out there. Also, implying that no woman would like that kind of body is wrong as well. Just as some women may find showing of their sexual side empowering. In the end it's pandering to both sides.

Hell, i have chosen female characters a lot of times because i couldn't identify with the musclepacked male options they tend to give you in games.
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
19,610
4,420
118
Andy Shandy said:
It might have worked better if you'd chosen more characters that were deemed attractive. Nathan Drake for example. I'm not sure how many people find Kratos sexy for example. But I don't know, maybe people are into literal white as the snow mass-murderers.

But...

You know, parading those sexy puppies around really doesn't help getting your message across.

OT: You must be the first one ever to use that argument, OP. Bravo! Have a lollipop.