The Raptor is dead.

[asinann]

obama seems like he is trying to ruin the nation

We cant spend 100 million dollars on THE MOST ADVANCED FIGHTER JET EVER MADE, but we can go right the fuck ahead and spend trillions of dollars trying to "fix" the economy not to mention that 1 B-2 bomber costs something like 1.2-1.3 BILLION dollars to make and we have many many more B-2's than we have F-22s

So it's the president's fault that the Air Force said "we don't want more F-22's, please stop sending them to us."


This jet was made in 7 different states, congress turned the F-22 into a pork barrel project. The F-22 was originally slated for a run of 187 jets, they got 187 jets. Congress wanted to make the Air Force take more of them. The joint chiefs and the president told congress to stop wasting money.

Actually, the Air Force is the one that wanted more. They even shuffled their budget around and cut other programs so that they could pay for a few more. Congress and Secretary Gates overruled them.

The Air Force wouldn't have had them in their budget in the first place if Congress hadn't budgeted it in for them. The Pentagon and the President said no, Congress said "We're going to put this money in the budget, and since the line-items veto was declared unconstitutional, you have to either make us rewrite the whole thing, or take it as we give it to you."

The individual branches don't get a ton of say on their major weapons programs, those are almost universally pork barrel Congressional babies.

I can almost guarantee that those 7 F-22's show up in an appropriations bill within the next 6 months to try and either garner it Congressional support or kill something.

 

[Unreliable]

1) America doenst have the money to play Empire anymore - I dont care whether you are right or left, your broke, and your military empire with hundeds of bases all over the world and retarded idea of full spectrum dominance is responsible for more than half your debt and deficit. The American Empire is finished, and we will likely be heading into a more multipolar world.

2) America has lost the war on terror. What good is a radar-invisible plane when your biggest threat (Terrorists) dont know what radar is?! America has city-vaporizing bombs, but their enemies live in caves. America spends trillions on the latest in technological weapons, but they cant defeat an enemy that uses old AKs, rocks, and little girls that strap bombs to their chests and run on crowded buses. Yes, terrorists dont fight fair, but when America has helicopters and nukes, you cant exactly expect them to line up with their muskets, now can you?

3) This trillion dollar oil raid into Iraq had fiasco written over it from the start (and, yes, we told you so), and now that it has alienated America's closest allies, made it hated around the world, resulted in disaster, ballooned the debt, killed thousands of innocent lives, and otherwise pulverized a developing nation. Most of all, it has been a terrorists wet dream - America has given terrorists more recruits than ever before, with extra motivation, while all your resources are bogged down in an unwinnable quagmire.

4) If war ever broke with Russia or China, the F-22 aint gonna make the difference, because you will be blasting one another with so many nukes that fighter jets will be irrelevant.

In short, America's military is obsolete, bloated, and useless in the age of nukes and terror.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

That canceling only 7 jets figure is misleading. Congress originally passed funding for 450 F-22s by 2010, with the chance to order more if they wanted to. Then they turned that into a build them as they go plan (Which ironically costs more per jet than if they just went into full production mode). Now they scrapped that in favor of the Joint Strike Fighter program, and extending the service length of our 35 year old fleet of F-15's and 16's

450 in all? So another 260 or so fighters yeah? So...even more money spent on jets you don't need "just in case". The cold war is over dude. Keep your eye on those ex-reds to be sure but I think we'll get fair warning of any building hostilities to arm up.
I guess you have to replace your old fleet, but with something so expensive? I can see the logic in their decision personally. The F22 is overqualified. 500 planes that do the job they are needed for perfectly well and 200 that excell at it or 450 that excell at it. I'm sure it would be great if every US grunt was trained to the level of Delta Force or the SEALS, but it's impractical.

 

[Valiance]

agreed 100%, OP is right.

F-22's are one of the few things we still have going for us.

 

[hippo24]

the U.S already has a ton of F-22's already, we dont need more, also, when was the last time we had a legitimate air-air battle? Vietnam??

that money can go for better things >.>

Im actually not too broken up about a few planes being knocked off the assembly line, as long as this isnt a trend. National security is above everything else, it doesnt matter how bad your economy is or how many civil rights issues you have. If you can defend yourself, your still much better off than your counterpart. Being poor and alive beats being rich and dead.

However, I dont think the cancellation of a few planes is upsetting that balance. We still have air superiority over every nation, and as long as that stays the way it is, well be fine.

Im all for practicing restraint with any and all government run program, military or not, and as long as Obama takes that same restraint when approaching economic problems as he does military, then its no big deal. But if this is a clear trend of stunting our military protection exclusivly, and continues to flippantly waste money in other areas...well then we might have a problem.

Also as for the air battles questions. You know why weve never had any substantial air battles...because of the air superiority we have through advanced planes like the f-22. Air superiorty suppresses all other nations, and makes noramlly "substantial" conflicts, unsubstantial.

 

[Spore]

let's do some maths then, really simple maths, because I suck at them

your beloved F-22 has a KDR of 244 - (2) hypothetically 0 if it wasn't for the awacs screwing up summat like that wasn't it? but let's keep realistic and keep it at 244-2 you've got 187 F-22... 244/2=122 122*187=22814 CRIKEY! tha's a decentsize airforce gone right there... but oh no! I forgot about the F-15... the F-15 has a KDR of 104-0 so hypothetically it can kill everything without a single loss... but for the sake of reality lets make it 104-2. the USAF currently operates 630 F-15's wich makes a total kill count of: 104/2=52 52*630=32760+22814=55574 planes gone...

do you really need more planes?

EDIT: and isn't the real danger coming from "terrorism"

 

[Chiefmon]

Why don't we just spend less money on giant fighter jets, and more on world peace?

How do I buy world peace?
Id really like to know.
Please ohh dear one
Ohh enlighten one
Help us poor souls who deemed things like war and foreghin policy as just elaborate games we play for fun.

Unless that statement was sarcastic...

Fund research on pure energy, ending oil and other material disputes, use the energy to create a new era in recycling, ending the need for conflicts over raw materials.Then, use our pure energy to enable intergalactic travel. Then when the various alien races let their guard down, we STRIKE! I never said anything about "Intergalactic Peace"! (Cue evil maniacal laughter)

 

[Woem]

Why don't we just spend less money on giant fighter jets, and more on world peace?

As far as I understand the idea is to enforce world peace with those giant fighter jets...

Exactly.

 

[Legion]

AND yes, I am biased against him, his policies are not that horrible, but he tries to hide things, he has been caught in blatant lies and he is trying to force things on people who don't want them forced on them. I don't like him. period.

Relax, Bush isn't President any more so you have nothing to worry about.

 

[hippo24]

Fund research on pure energy, ending oil and other material disputes, use the energy to create a new era in recycling, ending the need for conflicts over raw materials.Then, use our pure energy to enable intergalactic travel. Then when the various alien races let their guard down, we STRIKE! I never said anything about "Intergalactic Peace"! (Cue evil maniacal laughter)

Well you have my vote!

 

[Chiefmon]

Fund research on pure energy, ending oil and other material disputes, use the energy to create a new era in recycling, ending the need for conflicts over raw materials.Then, use our pure energy to enable intergalactic travel. Then when the various alien races let their guard down, we STRIKE! I never said anything about "Intergalactic Peace"! (Cue evil maniacal laughter)

Well you have my vote!

Thank you.
I always try to Help you poor souls who deemed things like war and foreign policy as just elaborate games we play for fun.

 

[hippo24]

Well you have my vote!

Thank you.
I always try to Help you poor souls who deemed things like war and foreign policy as just elaborate games we play for fun.

What would us poor souls do without you,
I was just about to join the peace-corp, thank god you were here to talk me down.

Now my time can be spent where it truely matters,
training attack dogs to hunt down aliens (never to soon to start selective breeding),
and going-to-bed-because-its-like-5-in-the-morning-and-I-don't-really-know-why-I'm-up-arguing-about-whether-its-justified-that-Obama-is-killing-dinosaurs.

Though the former isn't rigorously enforced.

 

[Motti]

While the Raptor looks cool, I liked the company Supermarine [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine] better when they were making Racing planes.[/analogy]

LEAVE THEM OUT OF THIS! They invented the spitfire, and nothing can top that!

...such a great plane...

I'm going to leave you in your happy little world there and not mention the hurricane. Oops, too late.

OT: While I'm not an expert on planes, I don't think that it's a big deal that they're not making more. The old planes still exist don't they? If it does come to a battle of britan style completly air battle America still has 187 F-22s don't they?

 

[LongAndShort]

I doubt your gonna be at war with China or Russia in the near future, and even still you'd probably be helped the Brits, French and Germans who have enough brilliant fighter planes to make up for any deficiencies. But as i said, its unlikely you'll be fighting any major military powers in the forseeable future.

I reckon that instead of spending billions on a handful of planes you should instead spend it on better protection for the troops on the ground who are actually fighting the war on terror, or on aircraft that can help them in that role, such as A-10's or attack helicopters.

 

[Chester41585]

Personally, I'm a supporter of UCAV technology. But I was also hoping the YF-23 would beat the F-22.
The F-22 is a good jet, granted, and does it's job well, but the only time I think it will truly shine is in an end-world scenario involving the Big Three (or Four. I lost count when the EU popped up). The F-35's role as a CASJSF is a good idea, but the AV-8s in service perform the same role, cheaper. A-10s are decent, but don't have the VTOL/STOVL feature that appeals to alot of the brass in the DoD.

I see alot of these new fighter concepts and look back at the B-52, which has an extended maintenance and lifetime expectancy of another twenty or thirty years.

 

[blaze96]

What would us poor souls do without you,
I was just about to join the peace-corp, thank god you were here to talk me down.

Now my time can be spent where it truely matters,
training attack dogs to hunt down aliens (never to soon to start selective breeding),
and going-to-bed-because-its-like-5-in-the-morning-and-I-don't-really-know-why-I'm-up-arguing-about-whether-its-justified-that-Obama-is-killing-dinosaurs.

Though the former isn't rigorously enforced.

Well at least your priorities are in the correct order damn it. Seriously though, I agree with your earlier posts.

 

[L4hlborg]

Maybe, just maybe, it is a good idea not to spend a shitload of cash into something that won't be used for anything for like the next decade, while the economy is not doing too well. I'm not saying that it's a brilliant idea to leave a nation undefended or that the other stuff they are building is any better, but rejecting that seems like a sensible idea.

 

[Srkkl]

Why don't we just spend less money on giant fighter jets, and more on world peace?

If you want world peace prepare for war.

OT: If experts agree we don't need them and the money is going to better things then I'm going to have to agree with the outcome.

 

[manaman]

snip

I was in when they had the force shaping program. When they cut 15,000 airmen from the ranks during the middle of a war. This comes as no surprise. I was never a fan of Obama. Frankly having him in office and the democrats in charge of the house and senate scares me. I wouldn't care if they had much less of a grip.

I have and always will be a moderate. I do not completely agree with either party. Less so with the republicans as they seem to be getting crazier as they lose power. The extreme left however is even worse, and those people seem to be gaining influence by the day.

You're more than ready. How many F-22's you got? 187 you say? They are cancelling 7 more. Well fuck me, you're totally screwed now aren't you? In fact you'd be pretty fucked with only 7 more...I reckon you need at least another couple of hundred, I think you should write to your senator and complain.

Those seven more where the minimum to keep the line open. Without those they close as in no more. I thought they pushed that through last year to give them time to fully decide how many they wanted, guess they managed to get it delayed so they could turn it down this year.

OT: If experts agree we don't need them and the money is going to better things then I'm going to have to agree with the outcome.

Problem is the experts disagree, the bean counters are pulling the strings on this one.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

LEAVE THEM OUT OF THIS! They invented the spitfire, and nothing can top that!

...such a great plane...

I'm going to leave you in your happy little world there and not mention the hurricane. Oops, too late.

Oh come on, the Hurricane as good at what it did...shooting down stuka's and He111' s, both of which were pieces of crap. Put it up against a decent fighter and you had problems. There's a reason the spitfire was continued...it was a much better fighter. If all those spitfires had been hurricanes we'd have been (even more) thoroughly in the shit.

Those seven more where the minimum to keep the line open. Without those they close as in no more. I thought they pushed that through last year to give them time to fully decide how many they wanted, guess they managed to get it delayed so they could turn it down this year.

While I imagine they could be opened up again if really needed that is quite a good argument, one that, if it were my country involved, would at least give me serious cause for thought rather than WTF do we need that for?

Alternatively: It's failed. Too goddam expensive, the F35 wins. It's kinda like the Challenger II/Abrams, I was all hurr hurr, better armour, better range, speed...WTF? twice the price?!? Uh...you don't fancy swapping 400 Challengers for 800 Abrams do yo?