The state of Games Workshop

TechNoFear

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I wonder how they would deal with my armies that consist of old models, many conversions, from up to 25 years ago (I haven't bought any models in over a decade).

We started playing 40K in the '90s.
As people stopped playing I inherited their armies (as I have the space to keep them).
I have well over 1,000 painted models and could easily field a 2,000 pt army from orks, space marines, imperial guard, chaos, dark eldar or eldar.
 

Avnger

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Based on the OP, I'm beginning to wonder if the next step by GW will be to require players show store receipts for everything they bring into the store to use.
 

Dalisclock

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I don't play tabletop, so this is pretty much an outsider viewpoint but Seriously? Seriously? Stores can micro-manage what models and dice people play with(outside of tournaments and such)? How the hell is that even their business?
 
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I got to say dude, are you sure your local store (or their area managers) aren't just a bunch of cunts? Maybe it's an American thing? Turned up to a GW yesterday to try out 8th edition (much preferred it to the previous outings, although to be fair it was a simple game, no deep striking, transports etc). Plenty of people with off brand dice, bags, cases etc
I dunno, I've seen you post about GW assholery at your local store a few times, and while I can well believe it, it's not something I've ever experienced. Admittedly I only been to 3 different stores and only 2 of those with any regularity, so hardly an overall representative cross section, but the only problem I've ever had was one of those pushy salesman types at one store and he's long gone now.
 

Zontar

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American Tanker said:
Yep, drop GW like they're radioactive and just play... Literally anything that's not GW's.
This. I got into Star Wars Armada a few months back and for less then the cost of a proper army in 40k managed to buy enough ships for both the rebels and the empire that, along with a copy of Corellion Conflict, I have enough models to play a full 3 v 3 campaign. Which in 2 weeks I am.

There are so many tabletop games out there, 40k is just the most well known. I'd suspect that many could allow you to have a pair of full armies (whatever constitutes an army for their game) for less then what a single 40k one costs.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

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Yeah... see, for the exact same reasons you list and more. My first Imperial Guard army back in 3rd was madr up using a lot of Necromunda models and oarts. Mostly Escher, Orlocks and some Ratlings. Basically a battlegroup from a planet that had been mistakeningly relocated in the Administratum as owing a far larger tithe of soldiers than a planet of its size in population... so mass conscription of anyone, everyone, from as many sources as possible emptying out savage landers, gaols, etc. No real training, no decent weapons, very few 'elite' options (w/ 4th). Just hordes supported by ramshackle--bare bone tanks.

I even modified some tanks to have multi colour plating as if some were painted, some weren't, and some practically ripped from the walls of the factory (using very thin corrugated cardboard) as if they settled for sheets of roofing iron. So I tried to simulate tanks having graffiti tags from engineers saying 'Screw This Down!' And armour plating with 'This Way Up!'... Basically give it that Siege of Stalingrad feel where mothers and kids would serve in the factories and thr battlelines are so close they didn't paint them... the engineers just drove them straight to the crews waiting on the battlefield.

So about 80% of the models weren't 40k specifically. And many standard models had Necromunda parts. Including my tanks... like using a jury tigged pair of heavy stubbers as if a port-side heavy bolter.

This attitude flies in the face of the creativity players love.
 

Chimpzy_v1legacy

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Silentpony said:
So I talked to the manager about this afterward when the store was about to close, 'cause...the fuck? And he's a friend of mine so he was pretty honest. He had gotten the verbal shit kicked out of him by the regional manager for not enforcing the 'New' GW rules.
Here's the breakdown of what he told me had was being forced to do:
-No 3rd Party models. Honestly, fair enough.
-No swearing. Again, sure.
-No smoking outside the building. Kinda 90s, but whatever.
-No using the bathroom in back. Shitty.
-Only official kits can be used. When I pressed him on this, he said if GW sells a kit, you can't substitute in a conversion of something else. GW has an official Battlewagon kit, so you can only use that kit for battlewagons. No more looted tanks, no more using Age of Sigmar dudes as other dudes, no more kit-bashed Inquisitors or converted Terminators from other army ranges, nothing.
Now the grace allowed is conversions are okay if there is no official kit. GW doesn't make a librarian on a bike for normal marines, so feel free to make your own. But they do make normal librarians, so that kitbash out of a grey knight box has to go.
-only official GW carrying cases. GW cases are shit and almost always break models, and they make loads of models that don't fit inside what cases they do make. I have an Ork stompa, and GW doesn't make a case that fits it.
I even asked about my backpack I carry my rule books in and he shrugged and said he's prefer if I didn't bring it.
-Only GW dice and accessories. No more generic $5 per 1lbs dice, no more generic measuring tape, or custom objective markers. The rule of thumb he gave me is that if GW sells it, you have to use the GW version of it.
I jokingly asked if we had to use only GW paints and brushes and he said he won't ask, but don't ever admit to anything.

And that's it. That's the 'We listened to our customers and did what they want' New Games Workshop is telling their store managers needs to happen. Horrifically anti-consumer rules, almost designed to drive away their customers. And it kinda' shows what I've always assumed of GW - the game and the customers are a burden to them. They don't want a community, they don't want to have to write rules and edit them or keep up to date with anything. They want you to buy models, and leave. Whether you put them together or not doesn't matter to them as long as you bought the kits.
Thankfully there are other stores in town, but they're a bit further away. But if this is the reception I, as a very loyal and friendly customer and player, can expect in 8th, it might be time to move on.
I don't know what to say. I haven't been into to the hobby for a long time, so I'm not in the loop about what happened at GW, but wtf. Calling it orwellian is perhaps a little much (if only slightly), but draconian fits the bill.

As someone who loved converting models, the whole 'no kitbashing if there's an official model' probably irks me the most. I remember when arriving at a GW store with an army converted to all hell would be met with a big thumbs up from players and staff alike. There were articles in White Dwarf about converting with recommendations from GW itself on which model ranges work well together, including ones from entirely different GW game lines. Every once in a while, they'd feature especially nice armies in a spread, GW praising the dedication, skill and creativity that went into it all.

On a more general note, and as vallorn already pointed out, the whole thing isn't just anti-consumer, it's likely to lose them a bunch of employees as well. Working under these conditions hardly seems like a good time.
 

Wrex Brogan

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This is kinda why I stopped buying official models back in the tail-end of 4th Edition. They just... don't care. Don't care about the store staff, don't care about their consumers, don't care about the long-time players... they just don't care. Couldn't give a shit. Hell, my mates and I used to joke that GW was going to start forcing people to use their dice, and now that's the god damn reality of it. So, fuck 'em, I just play with my mates using lego stand-ins, old models or 3rd party print-offs instead. Far more fun and far less stressful for everyone involved.

The shame of it is that this'll probably result in a lot of GW stores closing due to few people wanting to deal with this bullshit. I know in my city there's been a recent upsurge in Tabletop Clubs where people tend to play scratch games of 40k, from the feel of things they'll probably become the official destination for the actual games too. Which sucks for the employees of GW, but at the same time, the stores closing down and them getting fired is probably a sweet release given GW's tendency to fuck them over whenever the mood strikes them.
 

RaikuFA

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Sonicron said:
Souplex said:
So I've been meaning to ask: Do 40K players exist in real life, or are they entirely internetizens? Because I've never seen one in spite of how much the internet talks about them. Same with MrAs while I'm at it.
Oh, they certainly exist. Go to any sort of local game store where they sell miniatures and painting equipment, CCGs, board games etc, and you'll likely bump into them. Also, if you know where to look there are all sorts of small conventions and other events where matches and tournaments are held.
And there in lies the issue. I live in NJ, there are no game shops here. Not even comic shops. When I lived in CA there was Warhammer stuff but I don't think anyone bought it.

Based on what I've read though this game is going the way of the dodo.
 

lionsprey

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it's not often you see a business and think "i bet a monkey could run that better", then again are we sure the CEO isn't a monkey?
 

Cartographer

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GW's entire business strategy has always revolved around constantly getting new kids hooked on the game and milking their parents for every penny for 3 years. Their stores are set up to do that, and their rules for playing in store just reinforce it.
They don't and have never cared about the long term player, you aren't a big enough slice of their revenue for them to bother with. All their metrics point to the first three years in the hobby being the biggest spend, ~85%+, with a sharp drop-off as the kids discover girls and alcohol (yes, really!).
Maybe one customer in 500 actually stays with the hobby, and about 1 in 10 come back after a period away entirely (usually just in time to introduce their child to the money-sink).

No doubt you have the urge to spout some nonsense about how you can/do spend more on the hobby now you're an adult. How your free cash is more valuable etc. etc.
Rubbish!

If that was your urge, what you're failing to understand is GW simply don't want you in their stores. Young kids playing games in full view of other young kids is how GW advertise, word-of-mouth in schools and playgrounds, between parents at school drop-off and school clubs is their free marketing. A sweaty, overweight man-child with 10-years-out-of-date models in a store surrounded by children (and yes, there is a trend in the "type" of people who stay in the hobby) is exactly what GW don't want parents to see.

Again, you'll no doubt insist that you are personally responsible for introducing hundreds, nay thousands of gamers to the hobby through your vast social network and casual aquaintances (who are all now spending every penny they earn on GW products).
Again, bullshit!
The one in 10,000 who actually continues to successfully advertise for GW after becoming an adult (without being paid? why?) still isn't worth their time compared with even a single new 12-year-old.

So, suck it up, you aren't their demo any more. Either learn to enjoy what you have or move on to a product from a company that targets your age group and interests instead.

(far too many years burning myself out for a salary that largely went on more models)
 

DarthCoercis

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Geez, I wouldn't even be able to play my Chaos Warrior army at a GW store then. It's Tzeentchian, and EVERY model aside from a few old Games Day minis are heavily converted. My Chaos Lord is a kit-bash from 9 kits, and the dragon he rides is built from 16 different kits as well as a forge-world dragon and green-stuff.

Although.. I do wonder if they'd recognise my 1980s Warhammer Quest and plastic CWs as being actual GW minis?
 

Thaluikhain

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Huh...either that's really new or has not been applied where I live. Was at my local GW thurs before last, didn't have problems using necromunda models as priests or using a normal tape measure.

Had discussions with staff about how nice plastic models are because they are easy to convert, get any plastic human, stick lasguns on and it's a guardsman.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Avnger said:
Based on the OP, I'm beginning to wonder if the next step by GW will be to require players show store receipts for everything they bring into the store to use.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of rent for using a table. Minimum $15 purchase or something just to play on a table for 2 hours.

Cartographer said:
I understand I'm not their target demo anymore, but there's gotta be a middle ground between pandering to me, and openly telling me to go fuck myself. I'd prefer cold indifference over telling me I can't use my models, official GW ones I bought in that store at that, the way I want to use them.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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bastardofmelbourne said:
That's...uh, wow. I mean...using the official models is standard rules for tournaments, because they're tournaments and WYSIWYG and so on. It's important for the other player that he know what it is he's looking at.
The irony being that Flames of War, the second biggest miniature game, allows the players to include models from other manufacturers as long as they are the same vehicle/weapon and allows this for 1/3rd of your entire list. It is somewhat easier for a WW2 game, given the sheer amount of 15mm scale vehicles out there, but that's generous, especially compared to GW's bullshit. Battlefront even straight up admits that other manufacturers are more price worthy or offers better quality models and has no beef with people substituting to save money or to get better/cooler models.

Zontar said:
This. I got into Star Wars Armada a few months back and for less then the cost of a proper army in 40k managed to buy enough ships for both the rebels and the empire that, along with a copy of Corellion Conflict, I have enough models to play a full 3 v 3 campaign. Which in 2 weeks I am.
I got into X-wing earlier this year (much smaller scale admittedly) and for the price of about 1,5 squad boxes from GW I had enough ships to outfit a decent Rebel and Empire list with some ship and upgrade choices. Add to that that X-Wing includes all the rulers, dice and markers you need to play in the core set (which is very price worthy) and GW seems to be actively gouging you when they require you to buy necessary accessories at a mark-up.

Cartographer said:
GW's entire business strategy has always revolved around constantly getting new kids hooked on the game and milking their parents for every penny for 3 years. Their stores are set up to do that, and their rules for playing in store just reinforce it.
They don't and have never cared about the long term player, you aren't a big enough slice of their revenue for them to bother with. All their metrics point to the first three years in the hobby being the biggest spend, ~85%+, with a sharp drop-off as the kids discover girls and alcohol (yes, really!).
The first three years are also the big spender years because that's when you need to buy all the modelling and painting stuff, which after that drops down to a trickle as you only replace the odd color pot that you spill or that dries up. It is when you buy the core rules, the game play accessories like dice, measuring tapes, artillery templates etc. and when you have to buy all the core units for your first army in rapid succession to get playing. Once your first army has its' 1000pt core, the necessity of getting more models drops significantly and while many are quick up to the 1500-2000pts limit, the second army and beyond tends to grow progressively slower as you can play the game with what you've already go.

Sure, a lot of the boys that get into it in their pre-teens drop out around the 3 year mark, but even older customers tend to decline in buying intensity around that time since they most likely have all they need for the army they want to play with and aren't quite as keen on big splurges on their second choice.

Other than that nitpick, your take on GW's policies are spot on.
 

Cartographer

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Silentpony said:
Cartographer said:
I understand I'm not their target demo anymore, but there's gotta be a middle ground between pandering to me, and openly telling me to go fuck myself. I'd prefer cold indifference over telling me I can't use my models, official GW ones I bought in that store at that, the way I want to use them.
Depressingly, I was only exaggerating very slightly.
It gets even worse when you consider that GW really don't give a damn about any market outside of the UK; they can survive and make profit on just the UK turnover. So the view of even European markets is a "nice to have", let alone North American, Asian or Australian ones.

From their POV, you have to consider whether the extra revenue in catering for older gamers is worth the time and money investment plus the cost that having "older" gamers in proximity to the kiddies will have. And it does come with a cost, few parents who see a thirty-something-year-old playing in a store with a bunch of 12-13 year olds don't jump to conclusions, and when it comes to their child's welfare they have every right to think the worst of everyone until proven otherwise.
So how many parents walking away and taking their kid somewhere else is having an older gamer playing in store worth to GW?
It'd require a monumental shift in the buying habits of those older gamers, they'd each literally have to be out-spending about a hundred people, annually, with no let up, for GW to take notice of their views and opinions.
It sucks, but GW have run the economics of it for years and have the "new gamer" speech (which it largely for the parents anyway) down to a tee.
 

Elvis Starburst

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Silentpony said:
I understand I'm not their target demo anymore, but there's gotta be a middle ground between pandering to me, and openly telling me to go fuck myself.
Given what you've said here, I'd certainly tell them to fuck themselves. Rule specific models? I get that. But if I was told I can't use my own DICE OR CASE for crying out loud, I'd tell them "They're just dice. And the GW cases blow and break my models. If I can't even use these of my own choice then I'm never coming back, and I'll make an active effort to tell people your horrible practices and to go elsewhere." I'd make it my mission to tank their business at that point. Bit over the top? Who cares? GW clearly wouldn't
 

MASTACHIEFPWN

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That's truly awful. Next I suppose they'll only want you to use their official GW branded tape measu- Oh my god, that actually exists.

I still buy a lot of models of Ebay, but I've been buying from their store less and less. Really the only thing I get now is paints, simply out of convenience. Occasionally I'll buy a kit or a model to sort of say thanks for being a place of community, but if GW's opinion of their own community is that, I think I'll look elsewhere. (I don't trust getting paint from ebay, though.) I've never actually played a game in store, and I highly doubt I ever will now. I'm not buying your dice and overpriced cases to play a game in an intensely cramped environment. I really thought they were getting better, as a whole. But I guess they'll never truly be able to rid themselves of their toxicity.
 

MASTACHIEFPWN

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jademunky said:
See now, I have never actually played the tabletop and just admired it from afar due to the insane price tag but has anyone ever explained the justification for plastic miniatures to cost so much? I mean, seriously, children's toys are just as detailed and a fraction of the cost. Granted, I don't expect GW to be able to leverage the economy of scale that Mattel does but still.
It's a niche- the fact that there is so little of a market compared to something like an action figure is what keeps the price up, GW is especially greedy, as well. (They found a way to cut production costs a few years ago, and decided it would be a cool idea to spread that to their playerbase by increasing prices.) I've found a few alternative games that are priced far more reasonably. Anvil Industry makes everything in resin (Which GW charges a premium for) and remains significantly cheaper. (~25$ for a unit kit vs 40+ for a GW kit.)

You'll find it a lot cheaper on websites like Ebay and Amazon, but it can still be pretty expensive. The 8th edition has also lowered the price on rules/starter codices, and you kind find them for even cheaper online as well.
 

Weresquirrel

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I've only recently started paying attention to Warhammer. When I was a wee lad I collected a few of the models, because I was 10 and thought they looked cool. Never played the game. Then it became to expensive a hobby to pursue and I ignored it.

Then I discovered the "If the Emperor had a text to speech Device" web series, and I suddenly became fascinated by the fiction surrounding the game. I still don't play the game, but I have been shredding my way through the books. I've read all the Caiaphas Cain series, and I'm 4 books into the Horus Heresy.

To be honest, a lot of the nonsense and chicanery around the price of their stuff has been the root cause of me not joining in the game.I only got as many of the books as I did because there was a humble bundle a while ago that had the first 15 books in the heresy series.