The Steam/Valve arguement, (Question! not starting a flame war)
- Thread starter Hawkeye 131
- Start date
PercyBoleyn said:
Oh you're scared.PercyBoleyn said:
You seem to be dismissing people's right to talk about video games when they have a different opinion of them than you do. That's not an argument man.
You act like I'm waiting to hear from you. I'm just saying, you're looking like a bad person to talk to. Don't dismiss arguments. Those things are important for discussions.PercyBoleyn said:
*Multi-tasking on forums*
True, but they developed Left 4 Dead and Portal after they were hired by Valve. Unless you live in some parallel universe where time is irrelevant, you're argument doesn't make sense.PercyBoleyn said:
Steal their ideas? I'm confused now. So Valve didn't make those games....but they actually did? I mean, if they "stole the ideas" and put them into their own game, than that implies they made the games.
Which is it? Did they make the games or not? You're refuting your own points now. Please clarify.
Also, I wasn't aware receiving a high-paying job, creative freedom (that's why they made Portal, by the way. because those students wanted to, not because Gabe Newell told them to), and fame were equivalent to being given "nothing back".
I guess we learn something everyday...
Oh, on a side note, game developers across the industry hire new, "naive" college students all the time. In fact, many of the new game ideas we see now-a-days come from these very same hires. Fresh, new talent often equals fresh, new ideas.
Or were you under the impression that all other developers in the industry never hire new designers?
Vested interest? Ha! That's a good one.
No, in fact, I have several grievances with the company. Some I've actually e-mailed them about. And some that have yet to be rectified to my liking.
I'm never silent about them either. And I never take issue with anyone that levies genuine complaints against Valve either. For some, I actually get behind those complaints.
However, what you're doing (and what happens quite often around here) is...if people will pardon the crude vernacular..."making shit up".
Me having a "vested interest" in the company isn't the question that should be asked. The real question is, why are you so fervent in your hatred that the basis of many of your complaints and arguments are either extreme exaggerations or outright lies? For that matter, why is it you never actually back up your claims with facts but instead resort to simply insulting and dismissing anyone who calls you out on them?
Seems to me the only one here with a "bias" is you.
Remove it from the discussion, and I'm willing to continue.
Can you provide a source on that?PercyBoleyn said:
Because according to Swift herself
http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/kim-swift-on-leaving-valve-creating-quantum-conundrum-and-designing-games-f
"Swift left Valve in 2009 after working on games like Portal and the Left 4 Dead series. It?s a hard move to grasp, since being recruited by Valve right out of college already seems like a dream. But then to leave that position, a job most in the industry would kill for? It seems insane, but Swift was serene when I asked for details. ?You know, I don?t really worry about other people?s perceptions about my career, because it?s my career. I was excited. I felt that working at Valve gave me a great foundation and I knew I could do a good job and make something fun and interesting, and I wanted to branch out on my own and see what I could do. Just try something a little bit different. I haven?t regretted the decision at all since."
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/26404/Portal_Designer_Kim_Swift_Leaves_Valve_For_Dark_Void_Dev.php
"I've learned so much and had some amazing experiences at Valve," said Swift in a statement. "But when I heard I had the opportunity to work on innovative titles with my friends over at Airtight, I couldn't pass it up."
Would you say that making claims that you cant back up makes your argument good?PercyBoleyn said:
Yes.PercyBoleyn said:
They helped them become famous, and indeed having "worked at valve" on your resume can get you places in the gaming world.
[Edit]
Portal was conceived of and developed in it's entirety within the walls of Valve. What you're likely referencing is Narbacular Drop. Which, beyond proof of concept of portal techniques, is unrelated to Portal. Narbacular Drop was a project, for a final, by Kim Swift and her team at DigiPen. It was the project that so impressed Chet Faliszek and Gabe Newell that they hired the team on the spot.
After that point, Kim and her team (as joined by several veteran Valve designers and writers) conceived of the idea for Portal. After getting enough people on board with the idea, they began production.
Where you're getting the idea that Portal was made outside of Valve is beyond me. It's a bit silly, really.
As for Left 4 Dead, if by "starting the project" you mean mucking around with a server-moddification of Counter-Strike, wherein they would spawn a team of 20~30 bots with knives only and finding it to be "fun", then sure; Left 4 Dead started at that point.
The truth is, shortly after the project began, Turtle Rock became a part of Valve. Turning Turtle Rock Studios, effectively, into Valve South.
At one point, given that most of the people working at TRS had moved to Washington to work at Valves primary HQ, Valve decided it was best to close TRS.
However, two members of the TRS team (Chris Ashton and Phil Robb) decided they wanted to try to branch off on their own. And, with the blessing of Valve, they were given full rights to the TRS name. They have since then reopened the studio and have been aggressively hiring new talent and licensing new projects.
Secondly, Kim Swift left Valve because she wanted to work on her own projects. To try something different.
There were no disagreements or animosity in her leaving. In fact, she and many at Valve are still on very friendly terms.
From her own mouth, when asked about leaving Valve in 2009:
"...I felt that working at Valve gave me a great foundation and I knew I could do a good job and make something fun and interesting, and I wanted to branch out on my own and see what I could do." - Kim Swift
Oh yeah. She seems REALLY pissed about Portal and all that. Yep.
I'm sorry, but your logic is starting to astound me. Just because a pro-sport athlete makes more than, say, a doctor it doesn't mean that that doctor doesn't have a high-paying job.
Also, if you think Portal would have been the same game had they made it on their own, you're deluding yourself.
Much of the dialog, story elements, and character designs came from long-time Valve employees. Specifically, Erik Wolpaw, Chet Faliszek, and Jay Pinkerton.
Ergo, Portal, as done solely by the DigiPen team, would never have been the Portal we know today.
Much like you're doing here. Instead of answering my questions you are simply asking other, much more vague, questions.
I also notice you like throwing around "cognitive dissonance". I've seen you use it, quite inappropriately, in many of your posts. I know it's fun to use a "cool" phrase you recently discovered, but bare in mind it doesn't apply to everything. Might want to cut back on it.
In fact, if I do have any money invested in Steam, then I more than most would have a greater concern for it's function and related issues. It's failings would be more detrimental and more obvious to me, meaning I would be more vocal about them. Not the opposite, as you seem to assume.
Do you like being rude?
I'm not sure whether to laugh or not. It's almost as if you've skimmed news articles on the matter, but only picked up a few details and filled in the rest with nonsense.PercyBoleyn said:
Portal was conceived of and developed in it's entirety within the walls of Valve. What you're likely referencing is Narbacular Drop. Which, beyond proof of concept of portal techniques, is unrelated to Portal. Narbacular Drop was a project, for a final, by Kim Swift and her team at DigiPen. It was the project that so impressed Chet Faliszek and Gabe Newell that they hired the team on the spot.
After that point, Kim and her team (as joined by several veteran Valve designers and writers) conceived of the idea for Portal. After getting enough people on board with the idea, they began production.
Where you're getting the idea that Portal was made outside of Valve is beyond me. It's a bit silly, really.
As for Left 4 Dead, if by "starting the project" you mean mucking around with a server-moddification of Counter-Strike, wherein they would spawn a team of 20~30 bots with knives only and finding it to be "fun", then sure; Left 4 Dead started at that point.
The truth is, shortly after the project began, Turtle Rock became a part of Valve. Turning Turtle Rock Studios, effectively, into Valve South.
At one point, given that most of the people working at TRS had moved to Washington to work at Valves primary HQ, Valve decided it was best to close TRS.
However, two members of the TRS team (Chris Ashton and Phil Robb) decided they wanted to try to branch off on their own. And, with the blessing of Valve, they were given full rights to the TRS name. They have since then reopened the studio and have been aggressively hiring new talent and licensing new projects.
Firstly, see above.
Secondly, Kim Swift left Valve because she wanted to work on her own projects. To try something different.
There were no disagreements or animosity in her leaving. In fact, she and many at Valve are still on very friendly terms.
From her own mouth, when asked about leaving Valve in 2009:
"...I felt that working at Valve gave me a great foundation and I knew I could do a good job and make something fun and interesting, and I wanted to branch out on my own and see what I could do." - Kim Swift
Oh yeah. She seems REALLY pissed about Portal and all that. Yep.
So...because the company as a whole made more money on the project than any individual that was a part of the team behind the game...it means Valve somehow "ripped off" Kim Swift and the others?
I'm sorry, but your logic is starting to astound me. Just because a pro-sport athlete makes more than, say, a doctor it doesn't mean that that doctor doesn't have a high-paying job.
Also, if you think Portal would have been the same game had they made it on their own, you're deluding yourself.
Much of the dialog, story elements, and character designs came from long-time Valve employees. Specifically, Erik Wolpaw, Chet Faliszek, and Jay Pinkerton.
Ergo, Portal, as done solely by the DigiPen team, would never have been the Portal we know today.
No, the only time these "discussions" end "inconclusively" is because people like you simply ignore or dismiss anyone that refutes, often with quantifiable evidence, your claims.
Much like you're doing here. Instead of answering my questions you are simply asking other, much more vague, questions.
I also notice you like throwing around "cognitive dissonance". I've seen you use it, quite inappropriately, in many of your posts. I know it's fun to use a "cool" phrase you recently discovered, but bare in mind it doesn't apply to everything. Might want to cut back on it.
An example of a grievance? Okay. The unstable network status of some of their titles. Most notably, Left 4 Dead 2. One that has been persistent for the past few months. One that is in serious need of repair.
That's a cop-out assumption and you know it.
In fact, if I do have any money invested in Steam, then I more than most would have a greater concern for it's function and related issues. It's failings would be more detrimental and more obvious to me, meaning I would be more vocal about them. Not the opposite, as you seem to assume.
These passive-aggressive insults are cute. Though, perhaps you should cut back a little. The quite numerous number of warnings you've received seem to indicate that you do it quite often, but aren't very good at hiding it.
See what I mean? This one isn't even passive-aggressive. It's all-but blatant.
Do you like being rude?
I don't disagree with the OP's list, but I do love Steam. I agree that I don't care too much for the DRM, although it has never given me any problems, and the fact that you don't "own" the games. My biggest problem with Steam isn't actually about Steam, really. I hate when I buy a game on Steam, and then still have to go through more authentication with EA/Ubisoft/ect. I know that isn't really Steam's fault, but I think they could use their market share as a bargaining chip against it. "You want your product on out service? You let us handle everything." I also wish they had more games, but that is a somewhat moot point.
I guess it did. Not surprised really. He was becoming very confrontational in this thread. :/TopazFusion said:
Also, I agree with the refunds. Though, I must add that I can appreciate that it isn't quite as simple a process to grant a refund with purely digital mediums. (no physical product to return, etc, etc)
What I would like to see is some system wherein people can trade their games, directly from their account, to someone elses. Likely with a money or product exchange and having Valve and it's affiliates taking a small cut.
They've already started a similar system with the Inventory feature, so maybe something like what I said above could be implemented in the future.
Another complaint I've often had was the inability to install games to different drives or directories. Thankfully, that has since been rectified. (though it took long enough)
Wow... Never before have i seen someone so in denial of actual facts for so long, i'm sorry, but that was just outrageous.
Anyway, on topic, I use steam because so far, it is better than even DRM free software for me.
I have multiple PC's around the place (My main PC, the TV, work etc...) Which all can be used for gaming. If i use DRM-free gaming, i would have to copy over every game that i want to play on a specific PC, which takes far too much effort, and steam just allows me to download them on any PC that i want.
However, it isn't perfect. Keeping with my previous example, due to the way that steam works, if i log onto one of my other PCs, it logs me out of the original. I understand why they want to do this, as it would be too easy to give your friend all of your games. But still, it would be nice if there was a way for you to be able to log into multiple computers at once - Even if it has to be a steam support ticket/something you have to buy to use.
There are other things i want changed - As i'm pretty sure everyone does - But it is the best out there, and for me, it is even better than no DRM
Anyway, on topic, I use steam because so far, it is better than even DRM free software for me.
I have multiple PC's around the place (My main PC, the TV, work etc...) Which all can be used for gaming. If i use DRM-free gaming, i would have to copy over every game that i want to play on a specific PC, which takes far too much effort, and steam just allows me to download them on any PC that i want.
However, it isn't perfect. Keeping with my previous example, due to the way that steam works, if i log onto one of my other PCs, it logs me out of the original. I understand why they want to do this, as it would be too easy to give your friend all of your games. But still, it would be nice if there was a way for you to be able to log into multiple computers at once - Even if it has to be a steam support ticket/something you have to buy to use.
There are other things i want changed - As i'm pretty sure everyone does - But it is the best out there, and for me, it is even better than no DRM
As much as I want a system like that in place I doubt it will happen.Vigormortis said:
There is really just way to much insecurity, and an overall inability to make sure that people haven't made a copy of the game they bought, copied it somewhere else, then after "trading" the game to someone else, just uses a hack/edited steam file to get the game working again.
The whole concept of trading only works with real world objects because its impossible to copy said objects. I cant just copy a couch, or a car. Software however does not have that built in limitation, and thus, the concept of trading a purely digital product is broken at a fundamental level.
There is a website that does digital trade-ins: Green Man Gaming. Basically, you buy the game, then, when you're done with it, you can trade it in either for something else, or store credit. Or, you can pay to keep it. It's not entirely unlike what Redbox and Netflix does.SajuukKhar said:
I can see it working if the rewards for doing so outweighed the reward of scamming people out of a game for free. In Steam's case, there's the whole idea of playing on official servers, playing with friends, earning achievements, and while certainly people inclined to steal won't really think twice, it makes people not inclined to steal further away from a position where they would be. You can't convert a pirate, but you can keep people from becoming one. It's about trust - both the consumer with the company, and the company with their consumers.
I don't think its unreasonable to assume that there's a solution to what makes it, as you say, "broken at a fundamental level."