The terrible treatment of women in the latest Tomb Raider game

[JaymesFogarty]

Okay, now that I've got your attention, I thought I should bring up a problem I've seen in the game industry. This is best seen in Tomb Raider. Lara Croft, a terrified young woman, struggles to survive on an island, in the process murdering hundreds and hundreds of men. And only men. Excluding the supernatural spirit of the island that is also in the process of killing men (the male helicopter pilots and countless flight and ship officers) the only characters that that are killed horrifically are men. If you reverse the gender, and a terrified man is forced to gun down hundreds of vicious, rape-y women on a remote island, it would not only be seen as a disgusting piece of fiction, but it would never see the light of day. Think about it. In a world of equality of opportunity (where women who want to be soldiers, engineers, lawyers and scientists) why is it that the only people Lara kills on the island men? The excuse the game gives is that all of the women are burned at the stake by the head nutter. But again, if you reverse this, an all-female island brutally burning all of the men would never, under any circumstances at all be made into a game. So why is the reverse acceptable? I know the typical responses would be something in accordance with "grow a thicker skin" but this response is never said in scenarios when women feel that they are being deliberately picked out. Why are all video game goons men, when women are pushing to be allowed greater and fairer representation in the media?

 

[lacktheknack]

Actually, if a game attempted to pull a "Wicker Man" style of concept (ie. a women-only cult who enslaves/sacrifices men), it would probably go over fine.

They probably won't try it though, because almost without fail, such concepts are more or less always executed with all the grace, wit and effort of a drowning hippopotamus.

And if we know one thing about AAA games, it's that they won't look at a failed formula and say "Let's try it!"

 

[Erttheking]

Can I ask you a question? Why are you making this into an us vs them situation? I personally really like games with equal opportunity henchmen. Skyrim, Fallout, Mass Effect, Bioshock all had men and women thrown against the main hero to do what they do best, die like dogs. Even on GTA Online there were some female thugs. Heck, the most recent Iron Man movie did this as well, there were just as many super powered baddies that were women as there were men. It's actually pretty kick ass. So yeah, more of that please.

And please, for the love of God, don't turn this into an us vs them situation. I'm really tired of flame wars, I want to talk about this topic because I really care about it, but if it's going to turn into another thread of people clawing at each other's throats (Which we have quite a few threads of that happening already) then frankly, I'm out.

 

[Phasmal]

Men are generally the default villains in games because they are generally the default everything in games.

I thought we'd covered this?
I'm all for more female goons. Lady villains all the way.
It's just laziness on behalf of developers. They seem to be getting better at it though.
Buuuut I'm guessing this wasn't the answer you're after?

Ok, then. It's cause evil feminists want to steal your testicles.
We're making necklaces out of them.

 

[JaymesFogarty]

Can I ask you a question? Why are you making this into an us vs them situation? I personally really like games with equal opportunity henchmen. Skyrim, Fallout, Mass Effect, Bioshock all had men and women thrown against the main hero to do what they do best, die like dogs. Even on GTA Online there were some female thugs. Heck, the most recent Iron Man movie did this as well, there were just as many super powered baddies that were women as there were men. It's actually pretty kick ass. So yeah, more of that please.

The thought was brought on by the many references to Anna Sarkesian's videos regarding sexism in video games. She was calling for things like more female protagonists, and I couldn't help but think that with more female protagonists, we should have better female representation everywhere. By far over 90% of the goons I've killed in games have been men. I was just thinking that if games started upping the female goons, would Sarkesian agree with that, or would she and other feminists cite it as another example of the over-bearing 'patriarchy', in the same way that women are campaigning for the best jobs, whilst ignoring that sewage workers, miners and builders are by far male-dominated fields.

 

[Machocruz]

Most video game goons, including those of Tomb Raider, are criminals, mercenaries, or military combatants, and men vastly outnumber women in these professions. Fiction can only stretch observed reality so far before questions of verisimilitude start nagging at the audience, or becomes childish farce. Representation should not override contemporary reality or logical consistency within a specific setting (ie no all-female hits squads on a criminally controlled island taking place in the present day), imo.

If, like is mentioned above, you have a Wicker Man situation where the island was dominated by an all female cult, I think it would go down rather smoothly. There are examples of cults with a high female membership, even today. Of course you would have some feminists and their attendant white knights crying foul, but they do so regarding anything that isn't 100% in their favor.

 

[JaymesFogarty]

Men are generally the default villains in games because they are generally the default everything in games.

I thought we'd covered this?
I'm all for more female goons. Lady villains all the way.
It's just laziness on behalf of developers. They seem to be getting better at it though.
Buuuut I'm guessing this wasn't the answer you're after?

Ok, then. It's cause evil feminists want to steal your testicles.
We're making necklaces out of them.

That was exactly what I wanted to hear - what people thought. I think it's a shame that men are default everything - but feminists make it all but impossible to change that. If you have a female protagonist, regardless of what happens some women are going to ***** about it online about how sexist it is, and how harmful the portrayal is to women, whether she is strong (and as such cited as just 'a man with breasts' or sensitive, at which point she is stereotypical). If you have a male protagonist, questions about how well it portrays men just don't get asked. I think we should shut down female hypersensitivity with regards to media - let's have more female goons and villains, and more kick-ass female protagonists too!

 

[Erttheking]

Can I ask you a question? Why are you making this into an us vs them situation? I personally really like games with equal opportunity henchmen. Skyrim, Fallout, Mass Effect, Bioshock all had men and women thrown against the main hero to do what they do best, die like dogs. Even on GTA Online there were some female thugs. Heck, the most recent Iron Man movie did this as well, there were just as many super powered baddies that were women as there were men. It's actually pretty kick ass. So yeah, more of that please.

The thought was brought on by the many references to Anna Sarkesian's videos regarding sexism in video games. She was calling for things like more female protagonists, and I couldn't help but think that with more female protagonists, we should have better female representation everywhere. By far over 90% of the goons I've killed in games have been men. I was just thinking that if games started upping the female goons, would Sarkesian agree with that, or would she and other feminists cite it as another example of the over-bearing 'patriarchy', in the same way that women are campaigning for the best jobs, whilst ignoring that sewage workers, miners and builders are by far male-dominated fields.

Well Phasmal, a feminist, says that she wants for female goons. It's a different kind of inequality that I think we should move away from, and since I have seen absolutely no one criticize Fallout 3, Fallout New Vegas, Bioshock, Bioshock Infinite, Mass Effect 1 2 and 3 for their use of equal opportunity henchmen, I think you're getting worked up over nothing

Also here's a question, would Anita want it? Who cares? She isn't the head of all feminists. Plenty of women I know don't like her for her inaccurate criticisms on Baynoetta. Serioulsy, this discussion should not be about her. That's the problem as of late with this discussion, it's not about gender in games, it's about Anita. Frankly, we care way too much about her.

 

[theuprising]

The terrible treatment of MEN in the latest Tomb Raider is more like it. Men are either the villains or sacrifice themselves for Lara killing a few bad guys that Lara can do like a walk in the park. Men are expendable, but we have to protect the pooooor woman Lara! Because we all know women are more of living breathing human beings than men.

 

[Erttheking]

The terrible treatment of MEN in the latest Tomb Raider is more like it. Men are either the villains or sacrifice themselves for Lara killing a few bad guys that Lara can do like a walk in the park. Men are expendable, but we have to protect the pooooor woman Lara! Because we all know women are more of living breathing human beings than men.

...OK seriously, why are you turning this into an us vs them situation. Phasmal and I just said we wanted to see more equal opportunity goons. No one is out to get men.

 

[lacktheknack]

The terrible treatment of MEN in the latest Tomb Raider is more like it. Men are either the villains or sacrifice themselves for Lara killing a few bad guys that Lara can do like a walk in the park. Men are expendable, but we have to protect the pooooor woman Lara! Because we all know women are more of living breathing human beings than men.

...You know what, I've had enough of this. It doesn't matter how the games industry treats fictional women, be it not including them, having them as protagonists, having them as villains, having them as goons, or all of the above, someone will STILL accuse them of oppressing women, men, or both at the same time. I'm going to have a more interesting, thought-provoking and painless discussion.

Observe.

Ok, then. It's cause evil feminists want to steal your testicles.
We're making necklaces out of them.

I can't imagine those being very attractive. How do you incorporate them into the Evil Feminist Dress Code?

Or do you shun attractiveness in order to wear your testicle necklaces?

On that note, men's testicles tend to be of varying sizes on the same guy. How do you get symmetry, if at all?

Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[WeepingAngels]

Most people would never accept women being killed in large numbers whereas it's ok when it happens to men.

 

[JaymesFogarty]

Can I ask you a question? Why are you making this into an us vs them situation? I personally really like games with equal opportunity henchmen. Skyrim, Fallout, Mass Effect, Bioshock all had men and women thrown against the main hero to do what they do best, die like dogs. Even on GTA Online there were some female thugs. Heck, the most recent Iron Man movie did this as well, there were just as many super powered baddies that were women as there were men. It's actually pretty kick ass. So yeah, more of that please.

The thought was brought on by the many references to Anna Sarkesian's videos regarding sexism in video games. She was calling for things like more female protagonists, and I couldn't help but think that with more female protagonists, we should have better female representation everywhere. By far over 90% of the goons I've killed in games have been men. I was just thinking that if games started upping the female goons, would Sarkesian agree with that, or would she and other feminists cite it as another example of the over-bearing 'patriarchy', in the same way that women are campaigning for the best jobs, whilst ignoring that sewage workers, miners and builders are by far male-dominated fields.

Well Phasmal, a feminist, says that she wants for female goons. It's a different kind of inequality that I think we should move away from, and since I have seen absolutely no one criticize Fallout 3, Fallout New Vegas, Bioshock, Bioshock Infinite, Mass Effect 1 2 and 3 for their use of equal opportunity henchmen, I think you're getting worked up over nothing

Also here's a question, would Anita want it? Who cares? She isn't the head of all feminists. Plenty of women I know don't like her for her inaccurate criticisms on Baynoetta. Serioulsy, this discussion should not be about her. That's the problem as of late with this discussion, it's not about gender in games, it's about Anita. Frankly, we care way too much about her.

The only reason I mention her is because she is being cited as 'one of the most dangerous women' in the gaming industry. Nutty feminists (not feminists, nutty feminists) are given far too much credence in fiction. Everyone seems to forget that there are many problems that men could find in the industry if they were so inclined as well. I'm exasperated is what I really wanted to get across. Any popular modern female character I could name is picked over by feminists with a fine tomb comb. They need to understand that vicious, vitriolic scrutiny over characters like Ellie in The Last of Us is only going to turn the predominantly male writers and directors in fiction from further including female roles.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

Or it costs millions of dollars to accurately model and animate high-poly characters in modern AAA games, and devs rightly assume it's not worth it just to please a vocal minority who aren't even going to buy the game.

The reason things aren't "changing" is because virtually all gender inequality and racism in video games is driven by economics. In a "creative" medium governed by the will of private funding, the only thing that will change the face of the product is demand. If more people purchased feminist-approved games, we'd have more feminist-approved games.

Beyond this simple truth, the rest of this discussion is just academic masturbation and social justice crusading.

 

[Eve Charm]

Well the main answer is people won't see a game killing all or mostly females as equality they see it as sexist. When Resident Evil 5 was shown and talked about everyone screamed racist cause all the zombies were black even though they knew it took place in AFRICA.

It's not equality it's getting what people want.

 

[Psychobabble]

Okay, now that I've got your attention, I thought I should bring up a problem I've seen in the game industry. This is best seen in Tomb Raider. Lara Croft, a terrified young woman, struggles to survive on an island, in the process murdering hundreds and hundreds of men. And only men. Excluding the supernatural spirit of the island that is also in the process of killing men (the male helicopter pilots and countless flight and ship officers) the only characters that that are killed horrifically are men. If you reverse the gender, and a terrified man is forced to gun down hundreds of vicious, rape-y women on a remote island, it would not only be seen as a disgusting piece of fiction, but it would never see the light of day. Think about it. In a world of equality of opportunity (where women who want to be soldiers, engineers, lawyers and scientists) why is it that the only people Lara kills on the island men? The excuse the game gives is that all of the women are burned at the stake by the head nutter. But again, if you reverse this, an all-female island brutally burning all of the men would never, under any circumstances at all be made into a game. So why is the reverse acceptable? I know the typical responses would be something in accordance with "grow a thicker skin" but this response is never said in scenarios when women feel that they are being deliberately picked out. Why are all video game goons men, when women are pushing to be allowed greater and fairer representation in the media?

Well I'd have to say the reason has nothing to do with sexism of any kind and everything to do with incredibly shallow and poorly written narrative.

 

[The Madman]

I miss old Lara Croft, before they made her all edgy and hardcore. She only gunned down the occasional exotic creature that was out to kill her, this new Lara is straight up horrifically murdering dozens and dozens of people who get in her way in the most gruesome ways imaginable.

You know how many people Lara killed in the first Tomb Raider? One. One person, and even then she regretted it. It was a big deal that a human died. In the new game you'll be pickaxing random people in the head within the first few hours.

sigh

I guess I just miss when a game like Tomb Raider could be lighthearted adventure and fun. Not everything needs to be all serious after all.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

It's because you will want to protect the new less curvy Lara Croft and you don't want to protect women involved in cat fights.