The Turn Based Combat Thread

PedroSteckecilo

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Feb 7, 2008
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Vlane said:
PedroSteckecilo said:
Snippity Snap Y'All
Don't you lose two turns when your attack misses or use a skill which the enemy is strong to and gain a half turn when you use a skill he is weak to?
Oh yeah, and if you don't gain an extra turn every freaking round you will lose. I forgot that part. Those battles still rocked though.
 

t_rexaur

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Feb 14, 2008
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I don't get the hate for Final fantasy VIII. I really enjoyed it. I can only guess that since it came after VII people were probably so rose tinted that the sudden change put them off when it wasn't actually that bad.

Anyway, I'd probably pick the "you go then they go" turn based system used in Fire Emblem and Advance Wars but that's probably because they are more strategic games.
 

ZantetsukenQ

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For anyone who enjoyed Valkyria Chronicles (like myself), I would highly recommend trying a Snes game called Bahumat Lagoon. You have a myriad of dragons to level and raise depending on what items you feed them etc. The turn based combat system is almost identical to VC from what I can recall.

FF7 and 9 had great combat, but the winner has to be Chrono Trigger.
 

GloatingSwine

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My real favourite turn based systems are tabletop ones.

The ones that I feel particularly work well are Confrontation and Alkemy, two fantasy skirmish games, each with their own little twiddles on the concept of turn based combat.

Both are alternating turn games. Each player activates and uses one unit then passes over to the other player, rather than one player getting all their activations then the next player getting all of theirs. The latter system tends to be heavily biased towards whoever goes first, especially if they have some particularly strong attack available. Infinity, another tabletop game suffers from this, with grenade spam allowing you to wipe out half an army in the first turn by simply activating your TAG over and over and using the speculative fire rules (firing over cover). In videogamespace, Valkyria Chronicles is weighted down by this. Scout rushing is the most viable and powerful strategy late game, and generally it's an odd map if you're not just pumping all your activations into Alicia and leaving the computer with little to no way to respond. It also has the problem that when it's not your turn you are essentially a passive observer, unless the game has a significant reactive component (Infinity has reaction fire, but it overdoes it, bogging the game down). So, an alternating turn system, rather than all of one then all of the other is preferable when you have more than a couple of units (JRPGs which cap out at maybe 5 units per side can get away with all one then all the other, or simultaneous turn where you predefine your actions and they come out in an order defined by unit initiative, but beyond a few units the system would be unweildy).

Turn order is also an important prospect in Confrontation, your activation order has to be chosen before the round starts, so you actually have to think about which order you want to use your units in based on what the opponent might do, whether you win the initiative, etc.

Alkemy, by contrast, allows you to activate in any order, but units have Action Points (2, 3, or 4) which they need to spend to do things in their own turn and to react, so again there's a balance between being able to do your own stuff with your own activations or leaving the unit's AP in place so it can react.

I'd like to see that kind of system replicated in a TBS videogame, which so far have tended to be an all one then all the other, activate in any order type system. These are, of course, a different type of strategy, but one which I think is less interesting and more prone to imbalance as they tend towards a situation where you can identify the one most advantageous thing to do in your turn and then spend points to get it done, with little to no response from the other player.
 

Rodger

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I still have a buncha RPG's I have yet to play through, but I kinda liked how combination attacks were integrated into Chrono Trigger and the timed hits in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars. Specific area attacks were neat in Chrono Trigger too, though they became obsolete since toward the end every special attack tended to hit either one enemy or all...
 

pigeon_of_doom

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Feb 9, 2008
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I like the systems in any of the Shadow Hearts games, the judgement ring just helps me feel more engaged with the game. Would definitely like more turn based games to incorporate quasi-QTEs like this. While QTE's get a lot of hate, as long as theres a decent range of various ones in a game, I don't mind them. Although I would hate it to become the norm.

The systems of FFX and Chrono Trigger felt very fluid, although I played them straight after the original Fallout which would make Mass Effects inventory feel intuitive.
 

PedroSteckecilo

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Feb 7, 2008
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Rodger reminded me of another Turn Based System that I loved...

Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door had a freaking awesome battle system, probably one of the best in Roleplaying Games, turn based or not. First you have Timed Hits based on either Jumping or Hammer attacks, you also have timed Blocks and Timed Counters. You also had special skills you could equip via "Badges" that required a varaint on the timed move of a basic attack. As well you always have a Single Ally, who had their own Special Attack and Special Skills. Succeeding on these skills gained you "points" from the Audience, which you could store up and use to activate special Star Powers, which were extremely potent and very useful.
 

Jack and Calumon

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Dec 29, 2008
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I don't mind turn based combat, it's fine. Apparently FFXIII (Yeah, you know, that 2010 game) will have point based combat, which is an evolution of turn based combat.
 

Gantoris

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Although i love many of the games mentioned here like Civ, Galactic Civ and the Total War series for me the greatest of great turn based games is Jagged Alliance 1/2. Massively underrated squad based combat games that almost no one has ever played, i strongly recommend giving JA2 a try if you haven't i seriously doubt anyone will be disappointed. Also along a similar vien and almost as awsome are the first two UFO games (UFO: Enemy Unknown and XCOM Terror from the deep) which gave me weeks of joy back in the days, as did the original Fallout games.

"GloatingSwine"
If you like Table top games so much i assume you've played some of Games Workshops stuff? I'm fully aware there gaming is pretty shit these days as they aim more and more for a younger crowds and simplify the rules but the older editions of some of there war games are outstanding. Warhammer 40k seems like it may appeal to you from your descriptions of the games you play as similarly you didn't just have your whole turn followed by your opponent the individual units used an initiative system. Also Blood Bowl was a whole bunch of fun, esspecially if you can get a big enough group of m8s to form a small league. And just so ya know all the above titles i mentioned (Ja2, Fallout, UFO) use an AP system with reactions if you save points for ambushes, works like a charm.

Speaking of Blood Bowl if you guys like turn based gaming the new Bowl Game being made by Cyanide Studios is looking sickeningly good at the moment and you should prolly have a lil look see.
 

sanzo

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I definitely like turn based SRPGs a la disgaea, the fire emblem series, and Valkyria Chronicals. I think VK has it best, because enemies can still react to a certain degree even during your turn, and vice versa. Almost like a turn based/real time strategy hybrid

I'm not to much of a fan of the final fantasy type turn based, mainly because of the random encounters. I think that's why FFXII is my favorite in the series. That being said outside of the SRPGs I much prefer real time combat, like from the Tales series of games
 

-Seraph-

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May 19, 2008
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Why has no one mentioned Valkyrie profile? It's TBC was awesome, well it was more turn based combo attack. I loved how you could improvise and chain together group attacks and make real kick ass party combos that would lead up to an overdrive like move that would trigger for whatever character that was in the combo if the gauge reached 100. It reminded me so much of a more extreme form of chrono triggers battle system, just more streamlined.

Hands down one of the most creative battle systems I enjoyed alone with legend of Dragoons QTE type battles, Chrono Triggers battles, and FF6's with it's great deal of customization. Of coarse honorable mention has to go to Tactics for being one the the BEST TBS games ever with a level of customization and depth that was just mind blowing.

I hate how people slag on turn based combat because it "not realistic" or it dated. Well if it aint broke don't throw it away, just build on it. I just feel the people who bash it are just too impatient and it's a shame because the thought that goes into your strategy for tough bosses in turn based combat feels more rewarding than the twitch type active combat. Your rewarded more on your thought and less on your response time and I just find the whole reward of brains over brawn real satisfying. Still love real time combat but I hope TBC is never forgotten.
 

teletran3

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I'm a fan of games where you know when your players are going to do their turns. Final Fantasy VI, Chrono Trigger, the ATB gauge makes it easy to plan out your attacks.

Having your characters auto target a new enemy if their initial target dies is also nice. Lufia annoyed the crap out of me because you would have to have 3 people attack 3 different targets instead of focusing fire on one due to the enemy groupings.
 

GloatingSwine

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Gantoris said:
"GloatingSwine"
If you like Table top games so much i assume you've played some of Games Workshops stuff? I'm fully aware there gaming is pretty shit these days as they aim more and more for a younger crowds and simplify the rules but the older editions of some of there war games are outstanding. Warhammer 40k seems like it may appeal to you from your descriptions of the games you play as similarly you didn't just have your whole turn followed by your opponent the individual units used an initiative system. Also Blood Bowl was a whole bunch of fun, esspecially if you can get a big enough group of m8s to form a small league. And just so ya know all the above titles i mentioned (Ja2, Fallout, UFO) use an AP system with reactions if you save points for ambushes, works like a charm..
You could say that I'm aware of Games Workshop.

With a good following wind I'm currently within spitting distance of their global head office, after all.

I've never really liked WH40k as a game system though. There's not actually a lot of tactical choice and variation in the units, each one has a thing which it does well and all you're really doing is lining it up to do it's thing, and they've tended towards bigger and bigger battles that take longer and longer and give you enough points to throw around that you can pretty much take one of everything you want, rather than picking and choosing an army from the army list.

I preferred Epic 40k, which had more back and forth in it, and hinged far less on a couple of hero units (a big problem with 40k beyond second edition, some squads were basically a hero delivery system and meatshield brigade). 5th edition brought in Epic's wound allocations so you couldn't dodge wounds on the heavy weapons and heroes so easily, but it's still what I'd consider GW's least interesting game.

My regular tabletop opponent keeps trying to get me to play WHFB, but since he wrote two of the 7th edition codexes, I expect it would be rather one sided.
 

NickCaligo42

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PedroSteckecilo said:
Not as clumsy or random as Real Time; an elegant gameplay style for a more civilized age
You, sir, win. I applaud. I'd like to point out that my thread's purpose wasn't to bash or hate on TBC but to learn and remember.

My answer: Final Fantasy X, every time. First turn-based combat system I can remember REALLY thinking about when I played thanks to the turn order projector.

Improvements I'd want to see: A more accurate reflection of how people fight in the game's world. I've said it before and I'll say it again: playing Final Fantasy VII you would never have guessed Advent Children would turn out looking the way it did. Looks like Final Fantasy XIII is going in the right direction to me.
 

PedroSteckecilo

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Feb 7, 2008
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I agree thoroughly with Nick here, one of the more understandable problems I hear and agree about with about Turn Based Combat is that it doesn't feel like a proper part of the world. The Battle Screen appears to be an alternate dimension that doesn't have anything in common with the "real world" portrayed in the rest of the game.

They don't need to match up exactly, but steps should be taken. Characters should at least seem as powerful in one as they do in the other.
 

Xvito

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My favorite game that has Turn-Based combat is Final Fantasy X (The best Final Fantasy game, unquestionably). I hope that Final Fantasy XIII will have a Turn-Based system as well.

I also agree that the characters seem a lot less awesome in the battles than they do in Cut-Scenes. But this not only a problem for Turn-Based games.
 

Rodger

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NickCaligo42 said:
PedroSteckecilo said:
Not as clumsy or random as Real Time; an elegant gameplay style for a more civilized age
You, sir, win. I applaud. I'd like to point out that my thread's purpose wasn't to bash or hate on TBC but to learn and remember.

My answer: Final Fantasy X, every time. First turn-based combat system I can remember REALLY thinking about when I played thanks to the turn order projector.

Improvements I'd want to see: A more accurate reflection of how people fight in the game's world. I've said it before and I'll say it again: playing Final Fantasy VII you would never have guessed Advent Children would turn out looking the way it did. Looks like Final Fantasy XIII is going in the right direction to me.
I'm of the opinion that, pre-Advent Children, the characters really weren't pulling stunts like that. I honestly believe the characters only became walking supermen to add flashy action scenes to the movie. It wouldn't have been half as popular, as a movie, if it didn't have characters battling it out on the side of buildings. If thats how they were always meant to be then there's no reason they couldn't have hinted at it out of battle or through the character's attack animations. Every final fantasy since Advent Children has either had characters showing Advent Children-level powers or, in the case of the remakes, shown it in CG scenes.
 

PedroSteckecilo

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Feb 7, 2008
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In FFXII the characters were pretty low key, especially since little action took place OUT of battle in that one. But that's nether here nor there in regards to this thread as FFXII had a Psuedo Real Time System, not a Turn Based System.