The Victims of Homosexuality

[Twilight_guy]

I would agree with you, but honestly I think people reducing a complex issue down to a straw man "I HAVE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND! YOU"RE WRONG!" argument have done more harm to the world then every homophobic asshole combined. Your argument is right in spirit, but you're going about it in the wrong way.

 

[Psychedelic Spartan]

So, there's been a lot of talk in the forum about homosexuality lately, due in large part to the upcoming Mass Effect threequel. Both sides of the fence have gotten out of hand and I think we all need to step back and take a minute to think about the victims of homosexuality.

Homosexuals.

I'm sure it's pretty easy to sit on your comfy chair, behind your keyboard and protected by the shroud of internet anonymity while you tell everyone how wrong it is to be gay, or how immoral it is, how your god doesn't approve, how you think it's icky, etc., etc. But you know what? Shut up. Just shut up. People like that are the reason gay teens especially and adults kill themselves. While you sit there and safely tell the world how in your mind it is fucked up to be attracted to consenting adults who happen to be the same gender, people are hearing it, reading it and being told it on a daily basis. Normal people. Strangers, friends, family members, co-workers--people who you know and love, and people you've never met. These people have to listen to you tell them how sick they are. Yeah, freedom of speech; you have every right to voice your opinion. But you know what? I don't care. Shut up. You're wrong, you're a bigot and you harm people in ways some never recover from.

The only victims of homosexuality are the boy, girls, men and women who are picked on, harassed, devalued, ignored, shunned, beaten, bullied, neglected, belittled, assaulted, driven to depression; suicide and self-harm, and the people flat out murdered because close-minded asshats have a problem with what someone does behind close doors. The people who did nothing to anyone. The guy who lives next door. The woman at work. The boy at the park. The girl at school. They didn't hurt a single person and they didn't choose to be who they are. They are human beings and they want to be left alone, to fall in love with another human being and to live in peace, without people seeing their sexuality as weird and harmful to their children. They want to come to their favourite video game website and not see a bunch of bigots talking about how sick they are--they get enough of it in their every-fucking-day life.

So next time you wanna tell us all how 'wrong' and 'sick' it is to be gay, or you feel like expressing your horror at a child seeing a gay couple holding hands, take a look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself this: who's creating the victims here?

Very well said, and I agree with you 100%. One of the seniors at my school gave a speech about his own struggle of coming out as gay which said exactly this. Very well said.

 

[Xhoyl]

I strongly disagree with your beliefs about gays and I haven ever regarded any religeon as a reasonable basis for such beliefs, but I have vast quantities of admiration for your desire to stand by principles of kindness and decency, and stand up and be counted for the sake of protecting those who you don't even agree with. It's one thing to defend what you agree with, and another thing entirely to put principles ahead of personal preference in order to defend those you disagree with so that they can continue to enjoy the same rights as you do when they are under threat.

Carry on, sir. Carry on.

I do, however, have one thing to raise: logically, that means that you can "choose" to be gay, right? If you really wanted to, you'd be able to alter you sexual preferences to fit self-imposed desires and become gay.

I mean, OK. Would you put money on it? I can probably rustle up a few test subjects for this one.

Hell, I'm slightly bi myself. Is it your sincere belief I can stop that altogether? And that you, if you so desired, could alter your sexual preferences?

Incidentally, what religeon is it you follow? Don't worry, I'm not going to start jumping down your throat or anything. If this turns into a continuing discussion, just put up a red flag at any point and I'll stop.

Well, I had hoped to gloss over that since it tends to be a hot button issue, but if you're asking me, I'll tell you. I'm LDS, or as most people know us, Mormon. Now keep in mind, for a Mormon I am very odd, in that a lot of the things that bother most of them do not bother me. As a religion, we vary quite widely in individual stances, because a lot of it is actually left up to us to interpret our beliefs. Crazy right? Sure we have some general rules, but ultimately we decide for ourselves instead of following a stringent list. For example, I have an uncle who absolutely refuses to let his kids watch anything over G rating. Which I think is completely looney. I don't think sheltering children so heavily does them any good in the long run. While my parents usually didn't mind us watching PG-13 stuff. As an adult, I even sometimes watch rated R movies, if I think it's worth it. Language doesn't bother me either, so people can say whatever they want around or at me, and it just rolls off my back.

But as far as the homosexuality thing is concerned, we believe that our sex is a major part of who we are, not just a random thing we were born into. Even so much that before life, we think we lived somewhere before that, as our current selves, just in a spirit form. Anyway, enough about that, you probably think I'm nuts. I'm used to it. But if you have any questions feel free to ask me

 

[3vil Necro]

Ok, lets just be blunt. Homosexuality is a choice, it is a matter that applies to the individual and only in very specific or unusual circumstances does it effect others. Only idiots and zealots will persecute someone for a harmless life choice. So if your religion states that homosexuality is wrong, fine. Let it be wrong to you, just don't wave your opinion around like a battle standard every time you see a gay man or lesbian. And if you do don't act like a holier-than-thou dumbass and scream about your right to free speech when they call you on it. Now if your gay and living louder than a hot pink Cadillac don't be offended by every comment you get. The standard works both ways if my opinion of homosexuality is negative I have the right to my opinion as do you, don't act like the torch waving morons: share your damn opinion and challenge my logic with your own. Trolling is pointless in the face of a valid debate where the discussion doesn't sink to "OMG your a homo! Burn in hell!"

For the record: I am a heterosexual male, with a christian girlfriend, a homosexual brother, and an Agnostic personal religion. (haters load up).

 

[Tipsy Giant]

I'm probably going to get some flack for this, but my religion is against homosexuality. That being said, I do not agree with all the hate mongering morons who think that just because they think something is wrong, they can persecute and torment them. They cannot. That is not your right. People, no matter their faults, are human beings. And as such I will treat anyone like a person, with compassion and understanding, whether I agree with their lifestyle or not. You can't change my beliefs, so don't even try, but when people try to take away the freedom to do what they want, that makes me angry. So I am fully in favor of bills that give more rights to people, such as gay marriage, because I don't think it's the governments business to oppose peoples immortal right to choose.

Now, before you bombard me with a flurry of "but they don't get to choose" comments, because I know you will, while I do think it's a choice, I obviously don't think people just get out of bed one day and say "well, I'm gonna be gay." It doesn't work like that. It's something they tend to deal with their entire lives, and I am in no way saying it's easy to fight it. But I can tell you multiple stories of people who were gay and changed their lives. Too many people assume that because most people can't or won't do it, that no one can. I've seen incredibly gay men turn around and raise entire families. It's possible no matter how much you deny it. They weren't "brain washed", as most people will be convinced of, they were given options to help them and they chose to do so. Once again, it all comes down to choice, and being given those choices. Anyway, I'll stop here and wait for the inevitable flux of people disagreeing with me.

It is not a choice it is due to the amount of testosterone released in the child while they are in the womb, science figured it out.
Thanks for calling out bullshit again Science, I love you

 

[3vil Necro]

Ok, lets just be blunt. Homosexuality is a choice

Why do people keep saying that even though the burden of evidence is taking on creationistic proportions?

And all the while it's offering ammunition to raging homophobes who then paint homosexuality on par with decisions like which groceries to buy. And all the arguments to keeping them silent in public that you provide won't defeat them anymore because you've already allowed the fundamentalists too much room to work in, and their special religious privileges do the rest.

Good point. Religious fervor and logic in the same discussion is about as likely as the second coming.

 

[Blindswordmaster]

Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. You're in anger.

 

[zelda2fanboy]

Actually, there are places devoted to straights, straight culture etc, it's called everywhere! What you don't seem to realize is that even though it is 2012, people are still hated, assaulted, abused, even killed over being "Gay"

Also, i would imagine that it's pretty damn traumatic to realize that you were into your own gender, especially if you were raised in a society that hates LGBT people. (Like for example MOST of them) Although there are a lot of exclusively gay places, there are also a lot of biggots that still exist, that alienate gays, which means they need those places.

Also, and i know that people won't like me much for saying this, but i believe that every bigot, every hater, every unaccepting piece of scum deserves to suffer the fate that they want for the people they hate. I accept that bigots exist, but i picture a world where they don't exist, and i say, won't that be a much better world?

Free of fear over things they can't control, no more skin color based hatred, no more sexuality based hatred, no more personality based hatred, and no more physical or mental disorder based hatred

And that's a world we won't see as long as people like you exist, Mr zelda2fanboy

http://theapplebites.com/top-8-gay-apps-for-ipad-iphone-ipod-touch/ As one of my favorite gay podcasters likes to point out, no matter where he goes in the world, he's always ten minutes away from a blowjob. Tell me again why I should feel sorry for these people. They don't need your pity. You standing up for them, does NOTHING. They are happy and are leading fun and enjoyable lives.

What you are saying was true for a long time, but it's really not anymore for the vast majority. All the bigots and religious types who don't "approve" hardly ever interact with gay guys and when they have to, they're so uncomfortable they barely ever say anything. I am so sick and tired of people treating homosexuality like it's a disease or a problem. It's not and you are NOT helping by doing so.

 

[Maze1125]

Snip

That is an incredibly stupid and short-sighted thing to say.
Homosexuals aren't just abused on the internet, they're abused in real life, often by close family members. What "veil of anonymity" do they have then? How exactly do they ignore it?

When I'm (and the OP is as well) specifically addressing the issues of homophobic remarks made on the internet, the veil of anonymity is the entire point. It's throughout. I never said anything about attacks made in person, face to face, real person to real person, and neither did the OP. He said that those people existed, but the behavior he was telling everyone to stop was on the internet.

So... yeah. On the internet, bud.

You might want to re-read that first post because, although the OP started by talking about the internet, he quite clearly extended the discussion to discrimination in real life.

To quote:

The only victims of homosexuality are the boy, girls, men and women who are picked on, harassed, devalued, ignored, shunned, beaten, bullied, neglected, belittled, assaulted, driven to depression; suicide and self-harm, and the people flat out murdered because close-minded asshats have a problem with what someone does behind close doors. The people who did nothing to anyone. The guy who lives next door. The woman at work. The boy at the park. The girl at school. They didn't hurt a single person and they didn't choose to be who they are. They are human beings and they want to be left alone, to fall in love with another human being and to live in peace, without people seeing their sexuality as weird and harmful to their children. They want to come to their favourite video game website and not see a bunch of bigots talking about how sick they are--they get enough of it in their every-fucking-day life.

The entire paragraph that mentioned homosexuals killing themselves was talking about them doing it because of the effects of real life abuse, with only the last line pointing out that, given everything many of them have to face, topping it off with the same crap on a website they visit is a pretty awful thing to do.

At no point did the OP say that anyone killed themselves because of something an anonymous person said on the internet.

 

[Tipsy Giant]

Actually, there are places devoted to straights, straight culture etc, it's called everywhere! What you don't seem to realize is that even though it is 2012, people are still hated, assaulted, abused, even killed over being "Gay"

Also, i would imagine that it's pretty damn traumatic to realize that you were into your own gender, especially if you were raised in a society that hates LGBT people. (Like for example MOST of them) Although there are a lot of exclusively gay places, there are also a lot of biggots that still exist, that alienate gays, which means they need those places.

Also, and i know that people won't like me much for saying this, but i believe that every bigot, every hater, every unaccepting piece of scum deserves to suffer the fate that they want for the people they hate. I accept that bigots exist, but i picture a world where they don't exist, and i say, won't that be a much better world?

Free of fear over things they can't control, no more skin color based hatred, no more sexuality based hatred, no more personality based hatred, and no more physical or mental disorder based hatred

And that's a world we won't see as long as people like you exist, Mr zelda2fanboy

http://theapplebites.com/top-8-gay-apps-for-ipad-iphone-ipod-touch/ As one of my favorite gay podcasters likes to point out, no matter where he goes in the world, he's always ten minutes away from a blowjob. Tell me again why I should feel sorry for these people. They don't need your pity. You standing up for them, does NOTHING. They are happy and are leading fun and enjoyable lives.

What you are saying was true for a long time, but it's really not anymore for the vast majority. All the bigots and religious types who don't "approve" hardly ever interact with gay guys and when they have to, they're so uncomfortable they barely ever say anything. I am so sick and tired of people treating homosexuality like it's a disease or a problem. It's not and you are NOT helping by doing so.

Where do you live I want to move there!
cos here in the real world there is still so much hatred, sure we are moving in the right direction, the argument is over the speed

 

[zelda2fanboy]

It'd be awesome if gays had that too.

Come on man, grow up and stop bitching. You're talking about a particular subset of people who can still end up physically assaulted for something that doesn't harm anyone, and yet you have the temerity to act as though straight males have it rough?

So gays have plenty of activists and vocal supporters. So what? they fucking need them more than we do. There are still countries where that shit can get you a death penalty. Just because there's a united front in regards to the potection of their rights doesn't mean that they have some kind of, as you put it, "united cultural/political viewpoint/identity". because that's provably, demonstrably bullshit.

Are you really going to call them out for having a "persecution complex"? On what grounds? because they're more vocal and more noisy about possible persecution than you are?

They DO have a unified cultural identity. Gay books, gay movies, gay TV shows, gay music, a gay TV network, it goes on and on. Do you know any really right wing Christian gay people? This is a pretty solid set of cultural beliefs.

You know who is regularly persecuted in astonishingly greater numbers than gay people? Heterosexual women have a lot more to fear in being attacked, raped, murdered, and negatively judged for their sexual preferences than a gay male. And actually, you can't really "detect" gay people either. You people are acting like roaming mobs are currently rounding up gay people for the gas chambers.

There are nice things about being gay. Gay people enjoy being gay. They don't need you to stick up for them. Give it a rest.

 

[alexxcodered]

Actually, there are places devoted to straights, straight culture etc, it's called everywhere! What you don't seem to realize is that even though it is 2012, people are still hated, assaulted, abused, even killed over being "Gay"

Also, i would imagine that it's pretty damn traumatic to realize that you were into your own gender, especially if you were raised in a society that hates LGBT people. (Like for example MOST of them) Although there are a lot of exclusively gay places, there are also a lot of biggots that still exist, that alienate gays, which means they need those places.

Also, and i know that people won't like me much for saying this, but i believe that every bigot, every hater, every unaccepting piece of scum deserves to suffer the fate that they want for the people they hate. I accept that bigots exist, but i picture a world where they don't exist, and i say, won't that be a much better world?

Free of fear over things they can't control, no more skin color based hatred, no more sexuality based hatred, no more personality based hatred, and no more physical or mental disorder based hatred

And that's a world we won't see as long as people like you exist, Mr zelda2fanboy

http://theapplebites.com/top-8-gay-apps-for-ipad-iphone-ipod-touch/ As one of my favorite gay podcasters likes to point out, no matter where he goes in the world, he's always ten minutes away from a blowjob. Tell me again why I should feel sorry for these people. They don't need your pity. You standing up for them, does NOTHING. They are happy and are leading fun and enjoyable lives.

What you are saying was true for a long time, but it's really not anymore for the vast majority. All the bigots and religious types who don't "approve" hardly ever interact with gay guys and when they have to, they're so uncomfortable they barely ever say anything. I am so sick and tired of people treating homosexuality like it's a disease or a problem. It's not and you are NOT helping by doing so.

we could spend all day arguing who is right, but ultimately, it comes down to where you live, my hometown is not the best place in the world for gays to be, but there is plenty of places where gays are equals. It all comes down to where you are in the world and how liberal the people are.

 

[zelda2fanboy]

Where do you live I want to move there!
cos here in the real world there is still so much hatred, sure we are moving in the right direction, the argument is over the speed

I live in a small town in Illinois over an hour south of Chicago. I'm fairly certain we have our own gay bar. I'm also fairly certain that gays and lesbians work at my store (including the managers), and no one gives them shit for it, chiefly because it would make that person a jerk, but also they'd get fired. This has to do with the fact that we are adults residing in the real world, where there are laws and social mores. I've also vacationed a lot to popular gay destinations, Saugatuck, MI and Key West FL. They really looked like they were having a good time. I'd suggest going there if you're gay, you like gay people, or merely enjoy fun things.

 

[Maze1125]

Do you know any really right wing Christian gay people? This is a pretty solid set of cultural beliefs.

That is one major *facepalm* moment.

No, I don't know many right wing Christian gay people. Why? Because those are the ones who feel forced to hide it, and get persecuted if they don't.

The very fact that there seems to be such a homogenised homosexual culture should be the very thing that is tipping you off to the fact that there's still a problem.

 

[Slayer_2]

I'm probably going to get some flack for this, but my religion is against homosexuality. That being said, I do not agree with all the hate mongering morons who think that just because they think something is wrong, they can persecute and torment them. They cannot. That is not your right. People, no matter their faults, are human beings. And as such I will treat anyone like a person, with compassion and understanding, whether I agree with their lifestyle or not. You can't change my beliefs, so don't even try, but when people try to take away the freedom to do what they want, that makes me angry. So I am fully in favor of bills that give more rights to people, such as gay marriage, because I don't think it's the governments business to oppose peoples immortal right to choose.

Now, before you bombard me with a flurry of "but they don't get to choose" comments, because I know you will, while I do think it's a choice, I obviously don't think people just get out of bed one day and say "well, I'm gonna be gay." It doesn't work like that. It's something they tend to deal with their entire lives, and I am in no way saying it's easy to fight it. But I can tell you multiple stories of people who were gay and changed their lives. Too many people assume that because most people can't or won't do it, that no one can. I've seen incredibly gay men turn around and raise entire families. It's possible no matter how much you deny it. They weren't "brain washed", as most people will be convinced of, they were given options to help them and they chose to do so. Once again, it all comes down to choice, and being given those choices. Anyway, I'll stop here and wait for the inevitable flux of people disagreeing with me.

OK, I'm getting mixed messages here, so I'm going to tread carefully. Let me start by asking you this, just to clarify: Do you think homosexuality is inherently and morally wrong?

Whats to be confused about? Or is the confusing part that he said he doesn't agree with all the hate mongering morons? Is that where the confusion comes in? Cause thats pretty much the only thing I ever see anywhere, including these boards. "I don't like homosexuality" "HOMOPHOBE!" "No, I just think its morally wrong" "YOU BIGOT!" "Look, you can do whatever you want in your own bedroom, just me personally and my religious convictions think its a sin to act upon homosexual tendencies" "HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEE MONNNNNNGEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRR!"

Cause thats what it usually boils down to. Anyone who has anything but praise and acceptance for the homosexual lifestyle is labeled a hater no matter what they say.

This made me laugh. If you don't have acceptance for it YOU ARE BY DEFINITION A HATER you fucking moron. Praise? Fair enough, don't have to agree with it but as soon as you refuse to accept it in others You are (and I hope I'm not overstating this point) BY DEFINITION A HATER!
God, If you're homophobic at least admit it, don't try and cover it up with moronic reasons as to why people who aren't homophobes are persecuting you.

Great way to help the cause, bud. You'd think someone who supports the choice to decide what gender you want to bone would understand that not everything is black or white. But, by all means, be an ass, see how well that works for you.

 

[Tipsy Giant]

Where do you live I want to move there!
cos here in the real world there is still so much hatred, sure we are moving in the right direction, the argument is over the speed

I live in a small town in Illinois over an hour south of Chicago. I've also vacationed a lot to popular gay destinations, Saugatuck, MI and Key West FL. They really looked like they were having a good time. I'd suggest going there if you're gay, you like gay people, or merely enjoy fun things.

See i'd suggest pulling every place that isn't gay friendly kicking and screaming into the 21st century

 

[Terminal Blue]

It is not a choice it is due to the amount of testosterone released in the child while they are in the womb, science figured it out.
Thanks for calling out bullshit again Science, I love you

Sorry, I know this is a well intentioned invocation of prenatal hormone theory, but it's just not true.

A couple of years ago, Simon LeVay (an anatomist) suggested that he had have found human evidence of differences in the pituitary glands between self-identified gay and straight men. Now, the pituitary gland doesn't produce very much testosterone (unsurprisingly, testosterone comes from the testes) but it does produce some other hormones, which LeVay suggested could be responsible for sexual orientation.

Now, there are numerous problems with LeVay's study. The differences he records are absolutely tiny, which explains why if he's right they've been missed in previous anatomical studies. He took all these measurements himself, without any other researchers present to verify them. Frankly, he could just be wrong. There are so many theories about what causes sexual orientation, and virtually all of them have some evidence.

So basically, science hasn't proved anything in this regard yet. Until it does, I think the real potential is in child development theories based on repression or abjection. They make the most sense, and unlike 90% of the "physiological" theories they don't ignore or invalidate bisexuality.