The Victims of Homosexuality

[Kriptonite]

I hate double posting, but I just came across this, sorry to anyone I've offended.

-snip-

And that's a world we won't see as long as people like you exist, Mr zelda2fanboy

Both of you know what you said in it's entirety and if not, it's there for you to see. Anyway, I can see where zelda2fanboy is coming from. I'm not saying either one of you are right, or that he stated what he did in a pleasant way, but what I am saying is that it seems to me that zelda2fanboy, alexxcodered, and myself all have something in common: we all want equality for everyone across the board. Neither of us want equality for just one group of people, that in itself defeats the purpose in a way. We just want all groups (this part is my opinion: all groups not hate based for-an extreme-example, the KKK) to have equal rights, privileges and so on. In my opinion though, this world cannot exist if people are still striving for it. In no way am I saying that people should stop working towards equality, I'm saying that people should work towards universal equality, not just for groups they happen to fall into.

Also, I completely agree with this:

Also, and i know that people won't like me much for saying this, but i believe that every bigot, every hater, every unaccepting piece of scum deserves to suffer the fate that they want for the people they hate.

If that's the case, I guess I deserve a nice big slice of perspective-pie.

 

[DarthFennec]

OP knows what's up ^.^

On the other hand, we're on the Escapist Magazine forums, not fucking Youtube. I'm rather certain that anyone who reacts negatively to this thread only does so out of misunderstanding, because they only read the title and made a stupid assumption, rather than actually figuring out what you were saying. Everybody here agrees with you.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

I hate double posting, but I just came across this, sorry to anyone I've offended.

-snip-

And that's a world we won't see as long as people like you exist, Mr zelda2fanboy

Both of you know what you said in it's entirety and if not, it's there for you to see. Anyway, I can see where zelda2fanboy is coming from. I'm not saying either one of you are right, or that he stated what he did in a pleasant way, but what I am saying is that it seems to me that zelda2fanboy, alexxcodered, and myself all have something in common: we all want equality for everyone across the board. Neither of us want equality for just one group of people, that in itself defeats the purpose in a way. We just want all groups (this part is my opinion: all groups not hate based for-an extreme-example, the KKK) to have equal rights, privileges and so on. In my opinion though, this world cannot exist if people are still striving for it. In no way am I saying that people should stop working towards equality, I'm saying that people should work towards universal equality, not just for groups they happen to fall into.

Also, I completely agree with this:

Also, and i know that people won't like me much for saying this, but i believe that every bigot, every hater, every unaccepting piece of scum deserves to suffer the fate that they want for the people they hate.

If that's the case, I guess I deserve a nice big slice of perspective-pie.

But wouldn't you agreeing with that make you just as bad as the bigots in the first place?

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

OP knows what's up ^.^

On the other hand, we're on the Escapist Magazine forums, not fucking Youtube. I'm rather certain that anyone who reacts negatively to this thread only does so out of misunderstanding, because they only read the title and made a stupid assumption, rather than actually figuring out what you were saying. Everybody here agrees with you.

Sadly, this isn't the case, lol. You would think it would be, but alas, this very thread will show you maybe one or two and Jim's videos (namely the latest) will show you far too many.

 

[DarthFennec]

I'm probably going to get some flack for this, but my religion is against homosexuality. That being said, I do not agree with all the hate mongering morons who think that just because they think something is wrong, they can persecute and torment them. They cannot. That is not your right. People, no matter their faults, are human beings. And as such I will treat anyone like a person, with compassion and understanding, whether I agree with their lifestyle or not. You can't change my beliefs, so don't even try, but when people try to take away the freedom to do what they want, that makes me angry. So I am fully in favor of bills that give more rights to people, such as gay marriage, because I don't think it's the governments business to oppose peoples immortal right to choose.

Now, before you bombard me with a flurry of "but they don't get to choose" comments, because I know you will, while I do think it's a choice, I obviously don't think people just get out of bed one day and say "well, I'm gonna be gay." It doesn't work like that. It's something they tend to deal with their entire lives, and I am in no way saying it's easy to fight it. But I can tell you multiple stories of people who were gay and changed their lives. Too many people assume that because most people can't or won't do it, that no one can. I've seen incredibly gay men turn around and raise entire families. It's possible no matter how much you deny it. They weren't "brain washed", as most people will be convinced of, they were given options to help them and they chose to do so. Once again, it all comes down to choice, and being given those choices. Anyway, I'll stop here and wait for the inevitable flux of people disagreeing with me.

I've ... never ever ever understood this point of view. So maybe if you want, it would be cool if you could clarify for me lol.

So you're saying that you follow a religion that is against homosexuality ... but you personally are not against it? Then why would you follow that religion? That doesn't make any sense. I mean, if you think homosexuals should be treated like people too, obviously you have no problem with homosexuality, so why would you be part of something that does have a problem with it?

Or, maybe you are against homosexuality, but you also have a clear idea of the importance of your opinion, and you think you shouldn't be able to keep them from doing whatever the hell they want to just because you don't like it? That's how I feel about the Westboro Baptist Church; I may personally hate them but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to do what they do. Is it like that? But in that case, why? What exactly is the problem with gays? I find the WBC to be really fucking annoying, but gays don't generally parade around being assholes to everyone all the time so that can't be it ... I'm not trying to tell you you're wrong, or call you names or anything, I just honestly don't understand.

I don't know whether or not I agree with your "it's all about choice" thing ... one could argue that all the people you've ever seen turn straight were just bisexual in the first place but never thought of that as an option, but honestly that argument is impossible to prove or disprove so it's not one that's best to use ... Also, I've always considered myself one of the straightest people I know, but I'm currently in a gay relationship pretty much because my partner is just that amazing, like I'm only gay for him and nobody else for some reason ... so that may be evidence to what you're saying. I don't really know, I honestly prefer not to take a side in that debate.

Although you must admit that many gay people are forced into that "pray the gay away" bullshit by their family or community or religion, and they are brainwashed. I've known plenty of people who have gone through that, and it isn't pretty. Just because people might sometimes be able to change, doesn't mean that it's always the best idea. It's not like it matters anyway, unless it really does matter to the person, regardless of what their family or beliefs or community says.

 

[FishBrains]

Sexuality, by definition, is rigid. It's a catch twenty-two, you know? We feel a certain way, so we label it. But then the label becomes the emotion and the actual emotion can be forgotten.

Sorry to get all metaphysical here, but I guess it comes down to: is sexuality a thing one can own and contain? A mechanism that can be predicted? Or is it a label with no real substance?

I think I confused myself >_>

Ha ha. Yeah, it's confusing, and a lot of the terms we use to talk about it have connotations or assumptions underlying them that confuse the issue even more....

I think of sexuality and gender as two separate, non- binary, things, so it makes a lot of sense to me that they would be changeable and personally defined. I also worry that culturally defined categories can sometimes get in the way- choosing a label (gay man, straight woman) gives you an identity and a structure for acceptable behaviour, but might limit our thinking to what we believe we are- loosing touch with the actual emotion.
But not everyone shares my base assumptions, so the things I say might make no sense to some people. Also, I'm taking a university anthropology class, hence the vocabulary.

Because everyones standards and ideas are so different, I don't think anyone but you can define what your gender or sexuality is.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

Sexuality, by definition, is rigid. It's a catch twenty-two, you know? We feel a certain way, so we label it. But then the label becomes the emotion and the actual emotion can be forgotten.

Sorry to get all metaphysical here, but I guess it comes down to: is sexuality a thing one can own and contain? A mechanism that can be predicted? Or is it a label with no real substance?

I think I confused myself >_>

Ha ha. Yeah, it's confusing, and a lot of the terms we use to talk about it have connotations or assumptions underlying them that confuse the issue even more....

I think of sexuality and gender as two separate, non- binary, things, so it makes a lot of sense to me that they would be changeable and personally defined. I also worry that culturally defined categories can sometimes get in the way- choosing a label (gay man, straight woman) gives you an identity and a structure for acceptable behaviour, but might limit our thinking to what we believe we are- loosing touch with the actual emotion.
But not everyone shares my base assumptions, so the things I say might make no sense to some people. Also, I'm taking a university anthropology class, hence the vocabulary.

Because everyones standards and ideas are so different, I don't think anyone but you can define what your gender or sexuality is.

Quite an interesting read. I agree with you in some ways, but not in others. I think sexuality in and of itself is binary, but an individuals sexual preferences and identities are complex and near impossible to pin down (the brain is a complex machine, with a LOT of wires, lol).

I think my Aspergers gets in the way of me seeing eye to eye with you; I'm seeing the titles and labels as exactly what they are--concrete, solid, binary states--but I'm seeing an individual's sexuality as, like you said, fluid.

And you know what? I guess that means I agree with you; I can't align the labels with the people.

 

[Frozen Donkey Wheel2]

*snip*

*snip*

Alright, when you guys read this, keep in mind that I'm not trying to start a flamewar or anything, in fact, I'm pretty sure our views aren't all that different. We'll see how it goes.

But first a quick note to girzwald: Way to be constructive there, buddy. In the future, please don't put words in my mouth. When you assume you know everything your opposition has to say before they've said it, you destroy any hope for a constructive conversation. And if it's not constructive, then why the fuck should we even have it?

Now, this next part is for both of you. Please read carefully before replying. Let's try to keep this civil.

Spoiler: Wall of text spoilered for cleanliness

First of all, you guys must understand on some level that a great deal of your religion is entirely made up by human beings. WAIT, hear me out. That doesn't mean that any of it is necessarily wrong, either in an ethical or factual sense of the word. But it does mean that if you are to avoid ignorance, then you must be able to take all of it with a grain of salt. The Bible was written a long time ago, and with an antiquated sense of morality guiding it. Moreover, it's a known fact that Christianity (and really, almost any religion) has, over the years, been influenced by probably hundreds of different people, each with their own motivations and philosophies, and many of them not remotely religious. Now, I want reiterate what I said before: This does NOT mean that your religion is inherently morally or factually "wrong". That is NOT what I'm trying to say. It merely means that not everything in the Bible should be taken as some kind of undeniable tenant simply because it's in the Bible.

So let's move onto homosexuality specifically. Some quick facts we can all agree on: (1) It's between two consenting adults. (2) It does not hurt anyone. (3) Gay couples can do anything a straight couple can, including raise children (thanks to things like adoption and surrogacy). (4) Since we allow things like sterility, giving your kids up for adoption, children of divorce, and children having multiple "step parents" thanks to multiple marriages, then we as a society can't object to adoption and surrogacy without contradicting ourselves. (I'm basing this all of the fact that you guys have collectively mentioned "married couples should procreate and raise families" and "my religious convictions tell me it's wrong" as reasons for your views.)

So, what reasons are we left with to justify the belief that homosexuality is wrong? Only "My religion simply says it's wrong". But if there's no other evidence to support that statement, then the next logical question is "WHY does my religion say it's wrong?" Religion should not be an excuse to adopt beliefs without backing them up with any kind of logic or reasoning. That's not faith, that's ignorance. (NOTE: I would not say the same thing about a belief in god. I myself believe in a higher power. Just gettin' that outta the way.) So if homosexual marriages are not hurting anyone and don't raise any more or less children then your average straight family, then I have to ask: What exactly is morally wrong about it? And that isn't rhetorical, I'm honestly asking you.

 

[VoidWanderer]

So, there's been a lot of talk in the forum about homosexuality lately, due in large part to the upcoming Mass Effect threequel. Both sides of the fence have gotten out of hand and I think we all need to step back and take a minute to think about the victims of homosexuality.

Homosexuals.

I'm sure it's pretty easy to sit on your comfy chair, behind your keyboard and protected by the shroud of internet anonymity while you tell everyone how wrong it is to be gay, or how immoral it is, how your god doesn't approve, how you think it's icky, etc., etc. But you know what? Shut up. Just shut up. People like that are the reason gay teens especially and adults kill themselves. While you sit there and safely tell the world how in your mind it is fucked up to be attracted to consenting adults who happen to be the same gender, people are hearing it, reading it and being told it on a daily basis. Normal people. Strangers, friends, family members, co-workers--people who you know and love, and people you've never met. These people have to listen to you tell them how sick they are. Yeah, freedom of speech; you have every right to voice your opinion. But you know what? I don't care. Shut up. You're wrong, you're a bigot and you harm people in ways some never recover from.

The only victims of homosexuality are the boy, girls, men and women who are picked on, harassed, devalued, ignored, shunned, beaten, bullied, neglected, belittled, assaulted, driven to depression; suicide and self-harm, and the people flat out murdered because close-minded asshats have a problem with what someone does behind close doors. The people who did nothing to anyone. The guy who lives next door. The woman at work. The boy at the park. The girl at school. They didn't hurt a single person and they didn't choose to be who they are. They are human beings and they want to be left alone, to fall in love with another human being and to live in peace, without people seeing their sexuality as weird and harmful to their children. They want to come to their favourite video game website and not see a bunch of bigots talking about how sick they are--they get enough of it in their every-fucking-day life.

So next time you wanna tell us all how 'wrong' and 'sick' it is to be gay, or you feel like expressing your horror at a child seeing a gay couple holding hands, take a look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself this: who's creating the victims here?

*stands up and applauds*

Bravo, well said.

 

[alexxcodered]

I hate double posting, but I just came across this, sorry to anyone I've offended.

-snip-

And that's a world we won't see as long as people like you exist, Mr zelda2fanboy

Both of you know what you said in it's entirety and if not, it's there for you to see. Anyway, I can see where zelda2fanboy is coming from. I'm not saying either one of you are right, or that he stated what he did in a pleasant way, but what I am saying is that it seems to me that zelda2fanboy, alexxcodered, and myself all have something in common: we all want equality for everyone across the board. Neither of us want equality for just one group of people, that in itself defeats the purpose in a way. We just want all groups (this part is my opinion: all groups not hate based for-an extreme-example, the KKK) to have equal rights, privileges and so on. In my opinion though, this world cannot exist if people are still striving for it. In no way am I saying that people should stop working towards equality, I'm saying that people should work towards universal equality, not just for groups they happen to fall into.

Also, I completely agree with this:

Also, and i know that people won't like me much for saying this, but i believe that every bigot, every hater, every unaccepting piece of scum deserves to suffer the fate that they want for the people they hate.

If that's the case, I guess I deserve a nice big slice of perspective-pie.

But wouldn't you agreeing with that make you just as bad as the bigots in the first place?

If something i said makes people think that i'm as bad as the very haters that i despise, then let me say something:

I picture a world of equality (like i said above) and haters are basically the main object in the way, as kriptonie realized above, it's not split into specific groups, i simply want all round equality.

So, of course when i see someone saying that gays, African Americans, transgenders, etc are wrong i get a little pissed off.

also, technically, as long as we don't class haters into specific genders, ethnicitys, etc, we aren't hating on them, just the idea of them.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

*stands up and applauds*

Bravo, well said.

Shucks, you'll make me blush

I hate double posting, but I just came across this, sorry to anyone I've offended.

-snip-

And that's a world we won't see as long as people like you exist, Mr zelda2fanboy

Both of you know what you said in it's entirety and if not, it's there for you to see. Anyway, I can see where zelda2fanboy is coming from. I'm not saying either one of you are right, or that he stated what he did in a pleasant way, but what I am saying is that it seems to me that zelda2fanboy, alexxcodered, and myself all have something in common: we all want equality for everyone across the board. Neither of us want equality for just one group of people, that in itself defeats the purpose in a way. We just want all groups (this part is my opinion: all groups not hate based for-an extreme-example, the KKK) to have equal rights, privileges and so on. In my opinion though, this world cannot exist if people are still striving for it. In no way am I saying that people should stop working towards equality, I'm saying that people should work towards universal equality, not just for groups they happen to fall into.

Also, I completely agree with this:

Also, and i know that people won't like me much for saying this, but i believe that every bigot, every hater, every unaccepting piece of scum deserves to suffer the fate that they want for the people they hate.

If that's the case, I guess I deserve a nice big slice of perspective-pie.

But wouldn't you agreeing with that make you just as bad as the bigots in the first place?

If something i said makes people think that i'm as bad as the very haters that i despise, then let me say something:

I picture a world of equality (like i said above) and haters are basically the main object in the way, as kriptonie realized above, it's not split into specific groups, i simply want all round equality.

So, of course when i see someone saying that gays, African Americans, transgenders, etc are wrong i get a little pissed off.

also, technically, as long as we don't class haters into specific genders, ethnicitys, etc, we aren't hating on them, just the idea of them.

But that's just it--hate is the problem. If you allow yourself to hate anyone there is still negativity out there and still people being hated on. I'm FAR from perfect and I'm not saying I don't hate certain people, but until we all stop hating, even those of us hating the haters, world's still gonna be a shitty place for someone and that horrid emotion is still controlling a part of us.

It's not easy and I don't always do it--I try and I meditate daily for the strength to be better at it--and this thread I started shows my anger. But it'd be nice.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

So if homosexual marriages are not hurting anyone and don't raise any more or less children then your average straight family, then I have to ask: What exactly is morally wrong about it? And that isn't rhetorical, I'm honestly asking you.

You won't get an answer--at least not a satisfactory one.

Religions exist because people don't question them; their truths are self evident to those who follow them.

A man who died fairly recently, a much touted author and fantastic thinker said on religion: [blockquote]"Faith is the surrender of the mind; it's the surrender of reason, it's the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It's our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated."[/blockquote]

And perhaps more importantly:

"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof."

I also find this an interesting read, by a different man:

"Just think of how good a book would be if it were authored by an omniscient deity. There is not a single line in the bible or Qur'an that could not have been authored by a first century person. There is not one reference to anything. There are pages and pages about how to sacrifice animals, and keep slaves, and who to kill and why. There?s nothing about electricity, DNA, infectious disease, or the principles of infectious disease, there's nothing particularly useful, and there's a lot of Bronze Age barbarism in there, and superstition."

 

[FishBrains]

But that's just it--hate is the problem. If you allow yourself to hate anyone there is still negativity out there and still people being hated on. I'm FAR from perfect and I'm not saying I don't hate certain people, but until we all stop hating, even those of us hating the haters, world's still gonna be a shitty place for someone and that horrid emotion is still controlling a part of us.

It's not easy and I don't always do it--I try and I meditate daily for the strength to be better at it--and this thread I started shows my anger. But it'd be nice.

It takes a very strong person to take that kind of stance. I agree with you though- I'm the kind of person who doesn't really understand why anyone has to be an enemy, so I try to understand why my opponents think the way they do. Some things go so far that I have no hope of understanding them, and that's what usually drives me to simple anger. (By the way, are you Buddhist? You sound a lot like some of the casually practicing Buddhists I know).

Also, I really enjoyed our chat about sexuality and labels. It's rare to find such a calm conversation about these things outside of queer safe spaces.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

But that's just it--hate is the problem. If you allow yourself to hate anyone there is still negativity out there and still people being hated on. I'm FAR from perfect and I'm not saying I don't hate certain people, but until we all stop hating, even those of us hating the haters, world's still gonna be a shitty place for someone and that horrid emotion is still controlling a part of us.

It's not easy and I don't always do it--I try and I meditate daily for the strength to be better at it--and this thread I started shows my anger. But it'd be nice.

It takes a very strong person to take that kind of stance. I agree with you though- I'm the kind of person who doesn't really understand why anyone has to be an enemy, so I try to understand why my opponents think the way they do. Some things go so far that I have no hope of understanding them, and that's what usually drives me to simple anger. (By the way, are you Buddhist? You sound a lot like some of the casually practicing Buddhists I know).

Also, I really enjoyed our chat about sexuality and labels. It's rare to find such a calm conversation about these things outside of queer safe spaces.

I call myself Buddhist in certain instances, but it's not actually true. Spiritually I don't agree with the religion--I don't believe in reincarnation, for example--but I agree entirely with their concepts of peace through thought and understanding. If we all stopped hating (myself included) and hurting one another, we could talk and learn to understand each other, maybe even find a way to coexist in a way that works for everyone. It seems impossible, but I think believing it is, is the ultimate form of defeat. I refer to it as 'the daunting calculus of an enduring failure'--not my phrase (it's actually about fixing the prison system) but I feel it works here perfectly.

Basically, I take the mechanics and morality from Buddhism, but leave aside the actual faith.

 

[alexxcodered]

*stands up and applauds*

Bravo, well said.

Shucks, you'll make me blush

I hate double posting, but I just came across this, sorry to anyone I've offended.

-snip-

And that's a world we won't see as long as people like you exist, Mr zelda2fanboy

Both of you know what you said in it's entirety and if not, it's there for you to see. Anyway, I can see where zelda2fanboy is coming from. I'm not saying either one of you are right, or that he stated what he did in a pleasant way, but what I am saying is that it seems to me that zelda2fanboy, alexxcodered, and myself all have something in common: we all want equality for everyone across the board. Neither of us want equality for just one group of people, that in itself defeats the purpose in a way. We just want all groups (this part is my opinion: all groups not hate based for-an extreme-example, the KKK) to have equal rights, privileges and so on. In my opinion though, this world cannot exist if people are still striving for it. In no way am I saying that people should stop working towards equality, I'm saying that people should work towards universal equality, not just for groups they happen to fall into.

Also, I completely agree with this:

Also, and i know that people won't like me much for saying this, but i believe that every bigot, every hater, every unaccepting piece of scum deserves to suffer the fate that they want for the people they hate.

If that's the case, I guess I deserve a nice big slice of perspective-pie.

But wouldn't you agreeing with that make you just as bad as the bigots in the first place?

If something i said makes people think that i'm as bad as the very haters that i despise, then let me say something:

I picture a world of equality (like i said above) and haters are basically the main object in the way, as kriptonie realized above, it's not split into specific groups, i simply want all round equality.

So, of course when i see someone saying that gays, African Americans, transgenders, etc are wrong i get a little pissed off.

also, technically, as long as we don't class haters into specific genders, ethnicitys, etc, we aren't hating on them, just the idea of them.

But that's just it--hate is the problem. If you allow yourself to hate anyone there is still negativity out there and still people being hated on. I'm FAR from perfect and I'm not saying I don't hate certain people, but until we all stop hating, even those of us hating the haters, world's still gonna be a shitty place for someone and that horrid emotion is still controlling a part of us.

It's not easy and I don't always do it--I try and I meditate daily for the strength to be better at it--and this thread I started shows my anger. But it'd be nice.

I guess that i'm not exactly helping my hopes for equality if i hate anyone, no matter who it is i am slowing the dreams of true equality that I and many other people on the internet stand for.

thanks

 

[Kriptonite]

But wouldn't you agreeing with that make you just as bad as the bigots in the first place?

Hmm.. could you explain that further?

 

[Atmos Duality]

I'm not homosexual, and I honestly do not want to know, nor care for what anyone does in the bedroom.
Unless your particular fetish involves deliberately harming/killing another, I don't care.