There seems to still be a lingering concept that things guys do need to be "manly" or "not girly"

[Erttheking]

I'll fully admit to bias here. Ever since I was in high school I thought that the concept of being "manly" was beyond fucking stupid. Now I'm not talking about "manly" things like sports, drinking, driving cars, and shooting guns at the rifle range, plenty of people seem to manage to do that without being complete asshats, but there seem to be a lot of people out there who come off as really insecure. What do I mean? Well youtube comments...yeah I know, not exactly the most stable place to get data from, but this actually happens when people aren't complaining at each other about feminism. Everyone remember the final fight for MLP Season 4? For those of you who don't, it was basically something straight out of DBZ, energy beams, going through mountains, the works. It was pretty awesome. And a lot of people in the comments and elsewhere said something along the lines of "and they say this show is for little girls." Um. It is. It just happens to be really good. It just comes off as really insecure, like they're going "oh this show that I like isn't REALLY for little girls, little girls can't like shows that are actually cool. Only guys can, so clearly this show was made for us." It's just...creepy.

That and something I see around a lot is that when a badass male character cries about something in media they're "manly tears". This is particularly frustrating to me because the sterotype seems to be that manly tears are more calm and dignified than what actually crying is like, IE, completly losing your cool and blubbering. I mean in the last episode of Better Call Saul

Spoiler

When Mike reveals how he feels that he had a hand in the death of his son, he does not stay dignified. His voice rises and cracks, he cries openly, and the tough guy exterior completely falls away. It was really interesting.

But I keep seeing people talking about "manly tears" and how "It's ok if a guy cries if it's manly tears" because apparently a man is less of a person if he cries regular pussy tears.

I'm honestly just rambling at this point. Do you think I'm full of it? If so please tell me. If you think my ramblings are onto something, have you encountered anything like this?

 

[Barbas]

I think most people who say what you've mentioned, i.e. the "manly tears", are joking and don't feel strongly about it. The ones who do shouldn't have their opinions taken terribly seriously. That's about it. I wouldn't look too much into it.

 

[Erttheking]

I think most people who say what you've mentioned, i.e. the "manly tears", are joking and don't feel strongly about it. The ones who do shouldn't have their opinions taken terribly seriously. That's about it. I wouldn't look too much into it.

True. I could simply be overacting. Hard to tell on the internet.

Freaking Poe's law.

 

[False Messiah]

It just comes off as really insecure, like they're going "oh this show that I like isn't REALLY for little girls, little girls can't like shows that are actually cool. Only guys can, so clearly this show was made for us."

I think that the people who say that are trying to imply that little girls can't like cool shows, but rather that they're less likely to enjoy the over the top violence. Granted I haven't watched any MLP and I'm just going with your DBZ comparison so I can't say if the show is cool or not. But the DBZ fights are very violent and I can immagine people saying that little girls are less likely to enjoy that.

 

[Dizchu]

One of the most celebrated "masculine" traits is confidence. Which is ironic when you consider how god damn insecure most dudebro "alpha" types are. Oh, and how insecure fedora-wearing "gentlemen" are (as much as they hate each other they are really very similar).

You know what confidence is? Doing what the fuck you want to do without submitting to the demands of "cultural norms". You're a male with the beard of a Swedish death metal singer and you like Sailor Moon? Fantastic. You're a male that takes a lot of time to look good, you shave your legs, wear makeup and have fabulous hair? Amazing. You're a misogynistic asshole that calls men you disapprove of "faggots"? Well, you might just be an insecure little douchebag.

In relation to your point about MLP, bronies are a disturbing bunch. If you're a male adult and you like My Little Pony, that's fine. If you like drawing perverted fan art, that is also fine. But the show was not written for you, and the amount of creepy neckbeards intruding on spaces designed for little kids is appalling. And I think that relates to the insecurity you mentioned in your original post. They can't just appreciate a show for little kids (little girls, to be specific). They have to be convinced that it caters specifically to them.

 

[The Lunatic]

Stuff like this really doesn't help.

In fact, the whole rallying against "Men's rights" is pretty much entirely what you're describing.

Men are expected to simply accept their lot in life, and any attempt to fight for better rights on issues if often met with assumptions and mockery.

Essentially you're telling men that they're not allowed to complain about things, because, men aren't allowed to do that. Worst of all, it's often done by people who describe themselves as feminists, people who are trying to change social norms at one moment, and then using them as a mockery in the next.

 

[Redryhno]

Your biggest problem is taking the internet seriously and/or literal. Back off that edge and laugh about/ignore it, there's just as few people that take manly tears seriously as PC Master Race, it's just a joke. Now that I think about it, that's something alot of people here could (re)learn.

And you talk alot about people being insecure about their...whatever, you sure you don't have some things left to work out before you keep making judgements?

In relation to your point about MLP, bronies are a disturbing bunch. If you're a male adult and you like My Little Pony, that's fine. If you like drawing perverted fan art, that is also fine. But the show was not written for you, and the amount of creepy neckbeards intruding on spaces designed for little kids is appalling. And I think that relates to the insecurity you mentioned in your original post. They can't just appreciate a show for little kids (little girls, to be specific). They have to be convinced that it caters specifically to them.

To be fair, there's not alot of good 'kid' shows that adults can enjoy as well anymore, there's alot of things in there that kids don't/can't understand as well yet. I mean, they did have a binge-drinking episode with Flim&Flam's. And the multiple episodes built around a character's mental breakdown that they've got.

Not to mention adults have bought more of the merchandise from what I've seen than kids that have gotten it. To a point, they do sorta have a point that the show has a (incredibly) limited responsibility to cater to them as well as the kid demographic they want.

 

[Muspelheim]

On the subject of tears:

It might be useful to remember that the cultural idea of when it is appropriate or not to cry as a man changes, like all other expectations. Right now, we live at the end of a time where it isn't appropriate for a man to cry unless under specific circumstances. However, these circumstances are relaxing somewhat, since we're experiencing the pendulum shifting back from the more stoic expectations we've had since about the end of the Romantic era. No doubt, men will cry in a different way in the future, and the pendulum will probably shift back to what we're more used to at some point again.

If you were a real man in the Baroque era, you had other expectations of when and where to cry than you have today. But honestly, a lot of things related to the role of a man changes over time. The Spartans found small pensises more appealing and made sure to weep properly for their fallen. The Vikings spent a lot of their time cleaning and grooming themselves. Everyone, man or woman, wore make-up in ancient Egypt, if they could.

It is useful to remember that, since quite a lot of people assume that the current expectations of male crying is how it's always been and how it should be, and get worried and defensive when they notice the change. It's a harmless change, just another part of ever-changing human culture.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

I was talking about the way that men themselves act. What you're talking about is pretty much going off an a completely unrelated tangent. I was talking about people within the male gender trying to keep up this "men have to be big tough and strong and not like girly shit" crap, and you go off about how men have to accept their lot in life and how people mock any push back against "men's rights". That isn't even vaguely related to what I was talking about. There's a discussion to be had in what you're talking about, but please make your own thread if you want to do that and don't derail mine.

 

[Erttheking]

It just comes off as really insecure, like they're going "oh this show that I like isn't REALLY for little girls, little girls can't like shows that are actually cool. Only guys can, so clearly this show was made for us."

I think that the people who say that are trying to imply that little girls can't like cool shows, but rather that they're less likely to enjoy the over the top violence. Granted I haven't watched any MLP and I'm just going with your DBZ comparison so I can't say if the show is cool or not. But the DBZ fights are very violent and I can immagine people saying that little girls are less likely to enjoy that.

I'm not 100% sure. I mean I could be wrong here, but I don't think the people who said this comments even stopped to think about what little girls actually like.

Hey, I could be wrong, I just doubt that they thought that.

 

[The Lunatic]

Snip

I was talking about the way that men themselves act. What you're talking about is pretty much going off an a completely unrelated tangent. I was talking about people within the male gender trying to keep up this "men have to be big tough and strong and not like girly shit" crap, and you go off about how men have to accept their lot in life and how people mock any push back against "men's rights". That isn't even vaguely related to what I was talking about. There's a discussion to be had in what you're talking about, but please make your own thread if you want to do that and don't derail mine.

Men being told to not complain and be stoic is unrelated to men being told not to complain and be stoic?

Men are told by women and society at large that they have to be stoic, not enjoy "Girly" stuff and hide their emotions. This affects their interests, their ability to care for their rights and a whole bunch of other things.

It's entirely relevant.

 

[Total LOLige]

I occasionally thump my chest to asset my manliness, but when I do it sounds hollow. Could someone tell me if I have a medical condition?

No, that's good! If it doesn't sound hollow it means there's a heart in there, hearts are for pussies.

 

[Zontar]

Snip

I was talking about the way that men themselves act. What you're talking about is pretty much going off an a completely unrelated tangent. I was talking about people within the male gender trying to keep up this "men have to be big tough and strong and not like girly shit" crap, and you go off about how men have to accept their lot in life and how people mock any push back against "men's rights". That isn't even vaguely related to what I was talking about. There's a discussion to be had in what you're talking about, but please make your own thread if you want to do that and don't derail mine.

Men being told to not complain and be stoic is unrelated to men being told not to complain and be stoic?

Men are told by women and society at large that they have to be stoic, not enjoy "Girly" stuff and hide their emotions. This affects their interests, their ability to care for their rights and a whole bunch of other things.

It's entirely relevant.

Is it women telling men to be stoic or is it men? Because in fact "Toxic masculinity" the extreme,over the top macho-ness brought on by male insecurity is something that feminists do actually discuss. The idea that men being more in touch with their emotions, more willing to let them out and being less afraid to be seen as not manly might help fix a lot of problems both genders face is actually something that comes up quite a bit in feminism.

also, where did the OP mention "not complaining?"

The problem with the "Toxic masculinity" crap and the idea that feminists are pushing it in the name of helping men is that it has lead to a society-wide "do as we say, not as we do" where, though people saw they want men to be a certain way (in this case open about their emotions and interests) they act in a way completely counter to that. While many claim they want men to be open about how they feel, those same men are the first ones to be overlooked by them. That, coupled with the "Toxic masculinity" crap (and it is crap, as it implies that masculinity is inherently toxic is direct defiance of all studies on the matter showing that not only is that not the case, but the school system acting like it is has caused a national health crisis) has lead to a no win scenario for men where you are either the type of person the radicals who spew this ideology say you are the ideal but in fact reject you, or they say that you are everything wrong with society.

 

[Phasmal]

I think it kinda ties into this weird idea of `emasculation` wherein something you do or say somehow makes you less of a man.
It's an idea I've always hated. We also don't generally see it in reverse. I mean you have `tomboys` but that's not really the same thing.

I think some people don't realise there is literally nothing stopping them from not buying into these ideas.
So basically yeah fuck gender roles they're pretty shit for everyone.

But I'm pretty sure that we're just gonna get a lot of very stimulating discussion about how this is all feminist's fault.

 

[Zontar]

I think some people don't realise there is literally nothing stopping them from not buying into these ideas.

Except for most of society, including (hell, often especially) the people who profess that it doesn't matter at all.

Which isn't a surprise given how humans act on biological impulses, and both feminine and masculine traits where born long before there was such a thing as society in the first place, so it's no wonder that mentally most of humanity isn't willing to let these ideas go even if we want to: they are quite literally ingrained into our brains, so nothing short of artificially altering our brain chemistry would accomplish that.

 

[Phasmal]

I think some people don't realise there is literally nothing stopping them from not buying into these ideas.

Except for most of society, including (hell, often especially) the people who profess that it doesn't matter at all.

Which isn't a surprise given how humans act on biological impulses, and both feminine and masculine traits where born long before there was such a thing as society in the first place, so it's no wonder that mentally most of humanity isn't willing to let these ideas go even if we want to: they are quite literally ingrained into our brains, so nothing short of artificially altering our brain chemistry would accomplish that.

So... the people who don't buy into gender roles have some sort of brain damage?

There are people who manage to live their lives without such things.
I don't think it's as set in stone as you're making out.

 

[Zontar]

I think some people don't realise there is literally nothing stopping them from not buying into these ideas.

Except for most of society, including (hell, often especially) the people who profess that it doesn't matter at all.

Which isn't a surprise given how humans act on biological impulses, and both feminine and masculine traits where born long before there was such a thing as society in the first place, so it's no wonder that mentally most of humanity isn't willing to let these ideas go even if we want to: they are quite literally ingrained into our brains, so nothing short of artificially altering our brain chemistry would accomplish that.

So... the people who don't buy into gender roles have some sort of brain damage?

There are people who manage to live their lives without such things.
I don't think it's as set in stone as you're making out.

Why would you imply that something that is innate to the human mind is brain damage? I neither said nor implied that it was.

And I didn't say anything about gender roles either, I mentioned masculine and feminine traits, something even some of the most radical feminists perpetuate either explicitly or through their actions.