There seems to still be a lingering concept that things guys do need to be "manly" or "not girly"

[Relish in Chaos]

I see what you mean. Whenever I go out with my friends and, say, I want to try something nice-tasting like WKD instead of beer (because, let?s face, the majority of alcohol tastes like a dog?s behind), a few of my male friends scoff at me and say, ?Pfft, that?s a girl?s drink; don?t be such a lightweight!?

And whenever I reply ?So??, they seem fucking bemused, reiterate their point, and say that I should ?stop being a pussy?. Because apparently, one of the girliest things you can do on a night out is not make your throat feel like hellfire by repeatedly chugging horrible-smelling rat poison in the hopes that you can somehow numb yourself enough that dancing in the public equivalent of an epileptic?s worst nightmare surrounded by equally disorientated strangers that you may get lucky with if you play your cards of random chance right.

As for My Little Pony: Friendship in Magic, aside from all the rainbows and ponies and stuff, it?s pretty much your average cartoon show that most kids, regardless of gender, would like. It?s got the same themes of ?friendship conquers all? that a lot of Shonen anime have, and is just as colourful as the near-ubiquitous Power Rangers. But I agree with you in that I wish some guys would just stop acting as if they only like MLP ?ironically? or that it?s ?not really for little girls?.

You like a show aimed for little girls: big fucking whoop. The Simpsons started out as an adult show, and now it?s generally for all-ages. The people that care don?t matter, and the people that don?t care matter. Stop trying to make excuses for your hobbies, because this isn?t high school anymore.

 

[Phasmal]

Why would you imply that something that is innate to the human mind is brain damage? I neither said nor implied that it was.

And I didn't say anything about gender roles either, I mentioned masculine and feminine traits, something even some of the most radical feminists perpetuate either explicitly or through their actions.

Oh, well, see, I WAS talking about gender roles, so you basically quoted me to disagree with me about something I wasn't talking about.

There is literally nothing stopping people from buying into gender roles.
Of course, if someone wishes to conform to gender roles, good on them (as long as they don't hold everyone else to their standards).
But personally, I'm much happier not giving a fuck if I'm ladylike or not and know dudes who equally don't care about emasculation or any such thing.

 

[Zontar]

What do you mean over looked by them?

Over looked, ignored, not given the time of day, passed over, unseen, unaccepted, unwanted, etc.

No it doesn't. It refers to a specific, damaging masculinity. Not all. Which is why it's divided into it's own subcategory.

If that's the case, then the implementation attempts to combat "toxic masculinity" have failed on a level so great it's a spectacular sight to behold, what with ALL forms of masculinity being attacked (one example of this is the systematic massive, and unjustifiable, over prescription of Ritalin to children who's only problem is being a 10 year old boy who acts like a 10 year old boy instead of a 10 year old girl).

What do you mean rejects you? Oh please say you're not talking about nice guys not getting the girl. Please.

Simple: despite what feminists like to believe, they and most of the rest of society does not want men who act the way they do. I'm not talking about "nice guys" not getting the girl, I'm talking about "nice guys" getting mocked for existing. Not that you'd be able to tell the difference.

 

[Zontar]

Why would you imply that something that is innate to the human mind is brain damage? I neither said nor implied that it was.

And I didn't say anything about gender roles either, I mentioned masculine and feminine traits, something even some of the most radical feminists perpetuate either explicitly or through their actions.

Oh, well, see, I WAS talking about gender roles, so you basically quoted me to disagree with me about something I wasn't talking about.

There is literally nothing stopping people from buying into gender roles.
Of course, if someone wishes to conform to gender roles, good on them (as long as they don't hold everyone else to their standards).
But personally, I'm much happier not giving a fuck if I'm ladylike or not and know dudes who equally don't care about emasculation or any such thing.

So are you saying that masculine traits are inherently part of male gender roles and that feminine traits are inherently part of female gender roles? Because if that's the case I'd like you to go to the countryside for a bit, that's the fastest way I can think of to see that the two are not interchangeable.

 

[2012 Wont Happen]

Our society is very gender focused, and the language we use reflects that. A man who doesn't meet up to certain standards of manliness is called a pussy, a woman, a little girl; they are essentially called anything feminine word as an insult. The greatest praise people often give to female friends is to say she's "like one of the guys". In either event, being male is what is associated with being better and being female with being worse. This is a bad facet of the language, although I am more concerned about the cultural norms which gave rise to such language.

 

[Phasmal]

So are you saying that masculine traits are inherently part of male gender roles and that feminine traits are inherently part of female gender roles? Because if that's the case I'd like you to go to the countryside for a bit, that's the fastest way I can think of to see that the two are not interchangeable.

I don't know what part of `I didn't say anything about traits` you're failing to understand.
Please re-read the conversation.
I have been talking about gender roles this WHOLE time.
I have said nothing about `traits`- that was all you.

 

[Fox12]

I don't think I've ever seen someone use the term "manly tears" in an unironic way. When I see it used, it's usually either making fun of masculinity, or it's sarcastic.

Spoiler

As for masculine things that annoy me, its the universal "I'm not gay, but..."
Look, if you like something then just admit you like it. Don't give me this "I'm not gay" disclaimer. First of all, there's nothing wrong with being gay. Second of all, it's possible to be gay and masculine. Third of all, you sound insecure saying that. I like Sixpence None the Richer and Gilmore Girls. Fuck You.

 

[Zontar]

I wanted an explanation, not synonyms. Over looked how?

Simply flat out rejection in every way by society through individuals collectively doing so. The "ideal man" that is in touch with his feminine side is one which on a whole most people, even feminists, do not want to associate with, and their actions reflect this fact.

That's a cultural problem that hasn't really reached these shores. But the over-diagnosing and over-prescribing is pretty wide spread, anxiety, depression and a whole host of other issues. But do you actually have any sources backing this masculinity being attacked angle?

The criteria for the proscription of Ritalin for children is basically a checklist for how typical children and teenage boys behave, coupled with the north american school system continually adopting practices which basically punish or actively discourage boys for acting like boys (this is one of the reasons whole sports have basically died out in the US and Canada, and I'm not talking about thinks like boxing, I'm talking about things like dodge-ball)

So are you saying that masculine traits are inherently part of male gender roles and that feminine traits are inherently part of female gender roles? Because if that's the case I'd like you to go to the countryside for a bit, that's the fastest way I can think of to see that the two are not interchangeable.

I don't know what part of `I didn't say anything about traits` you're failing to understand.
Please re-read the conversation.
I have been talking about gender roles this WHOLE time.
I have said nothing about `traits`- that was all you.

You may have stated it was gender roles, but the content seemed more in line with masculinity and femininity then gender roles. Tomboys where mentioned as your example of women who aren't feminine not being treated like men who aren't masculine, but that isn't a gender role defiance, least not from my experience, I've seen "Tomboys" who fit well into female gender roles.

 

[Phasmal]

You may have stated it was gender roles, but the content seemed more in line with masculinity and femininity then gender roles. Tomboys where mentioned as your example of women who aren't feminine not being treated like men who aren't masculine, but that isn't a gender role defiance, least not from my experience, I've seen "Tomboys" who fit well into female gender roles.

Really? Well, that's interesting.
Everyone has certain parts of them which fit into their gender role and things that don't, it just varies from person to person.
Stressing about whether you're `manly enough` or `girly enough` isn't gonna make anyone happy though.
Better to just be who you wanna be, if that lines up with your gender role, fine, if it doesn't, also fine.

Simple: despite what feminists like to believe, they and most of the rest of society does not want men who act the way they do. I'm not talking about "nice guys" not getting the girl, I'm talking about "nice guys" getting mocked for existing. Not that you'd be able to tell the difference.

Evidence? anything to back up this shit?

Spoiler: I've got some video evidence!

Haha, sorry, I just love this song.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Um...yes? The OP seems to be describing the rather blatantly obvious there.

Our society is very gender focused, and the language we use reflects that. A man who doesn't meet up to certain standards of manliness is called a pussy, a woman, a little girl; they are essentially called anything feminine word as an insult. The greatest praise people often give to female friends is to say she's "like one of the guys". In either event, being male is what is associated with being better and being female with being worse. This is a bad facet of the language, although I am more concerned about the cultural norms which gave rise to such language.

Exactly.

 

[Zontar]

Really? Well, that's interesting.
Everyone has certain parts of them which fit into their gender role and things that don't, it just varies from person to person.
Stressing about whether you're `manly enough` or `girly enough` isn't gonna make anyone happy though.
Better to just be who you wanna be, if that lines up with your gender role, fine, if it doesn't, also fine.

Well, at least we found something we can agree with. I only wish there wasn't such a hard push by some groups (as well as the system itself) to try and make people who fit the more traditional roles to not feel as though there is something wrong with them for being the way they are (this is mostly concentrated in the school system though).

 

[Zontar]

Evidence? anything to back up this shit?

Alright, trigger warning: contains heavy amounts of Christina Hoff Summers and ideas that are pretty feminist when you take a look at them but that most brands of modern feminism reject anyway.

 

[rosac]

I get called "the gayest straight guy we know" at work due to my sport choices, the fact I'm well spoken and the fact I haven't got with a girl/shagged in a while.

I'm cool with it. They say this stuff, I throw stuff back at them. I'm happy with who I am, and they accept this (even if they find it weird how unbothered I am about sex/girls)

 

[Mister K]

OK, look, I understand that things that people like are mostly gender-neutral in modern world and I like it.
What I can't agree with is that I should allow myself to be overly-emotional.

Mind, what I will say comes from personal experience, which means circumstances could be different for other poeple.

Anyhow:
While growing up I kept noticing one thing about girls: they could not control their negative emotions (i.e. anger, fear, disgust, desire to cry), which most of the times led to conflicts between themselves or with teacher. I grew up, went to University, met other people. Things with women changed only slightly, i.e. they always managed to stay cool when it came to interactions with other people. Yet, a lot of times, when they couldn't handle situation, they had really serious emotional outbursts. NOT all of them, but many.

Also, I have a personal issue: my mother is HIGHLY emotional person. Whenever I did something bad/ didn't do something I was told to, or (a lot of times) whn she lost an argument with my father, she'd always, ALWAYS yell at me, tell me how I am a bad person, and so on and on. The only reaction I could allow myself is clenching my hands, removing my emotions from my face, bottling them somewhere else and calmy, emotionlessly listen, absorb. Only once I cried, hell of an achievement.

All this led me to creating the following policies: 1) I will always try to suppress all my negative emotions no matter the cost. I will not allow myself to hurt others with screams and tears; 2) When I will meet a lady and we'll have a relationship and common future, someone will have to be the cool-headed one. Why not me?

I have many times failed at following my rules, but I think I never failed completely. Being alone in a closed room also helps: I can quietly rage, swear and go mad when things go south without hurting others.

Plus, I never thought that "hot-headed idiot" archetype was in any way appealing.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

You know what confidence is? Doing what the fuck you want to do without submitting to the demands of "cultural norms"...You're a misogynistic asshole that calls men you disapprove of "faggots"? Well, you might just be an insecure little douchebag.

This is what I don't understand about this idea: anyone who decides they are going to go against cultural norms is chock-full of confidence and sure of themselves, anyone who goes with cultural norms couldn't possibly be doing it because it's what they want, they must be insecure and un-confident.

To give an example (oddly MLP related) I saw on this website once where someone said they didn't like MLP, and the response from some Brony was that he was only saying he didn't like it because he wasn't secure in his masculinity and didn't want to admit that he liked a kid's show. As far as this guy was concerned, anyone who was fitting into cultural norms didn't REALLY believe that, they were just doing it out of insecurity.

So in other words, what if a guy actually WANTS to be a misogynistic asshole who calls other men faggots? Now this obviously doesn't make him a good person, but who are we to say that they are insecure and that this isn't really how they want to behave? For all we know they are the most secure and confident asshole that has ever walked the earth. Just because we disapprove of their behavior doesn't automatically make them insecure.

 

[Just Ebola]

I hate using the word 'society' but I think society as a whole is getting better about it, at least in some parts of the world. But there will always be outliers who cling to whatever ideal the previous generation put in their head, and that's totally fine. For them. It becomes very not fine when they try to shame other people who don't want to hold themselves to those standards, and that happens quite a lot.


I've never seen MLP, but I hear it has a large adult male fanbase, and there's nothing wrong with that. Though I do agree that there's no need to rationalize it as being targeted towards adult males. If you like a show for girls, that's great, and anyone who has a problem with it is just that- the one with the problem.

I've been put down for ascribing to feminine things before (long hair, pierced ears and the like) but it doesn't bother me all that much, at least I don't find it hurtful. It's more of an annoyance.

 

[Dizchu]

This is what I don't understand about this idea: anyone who decides they are going to go against cultural norms is chock-full of confidence and sure of themselves, anyone who goes with cultural norms couldn't possibly be doing it because it's what they want, they must be insecure and un-confident.

I dunno, constantly berating people for being different goes hand-in-hand with insecurity. It suggests that you care immensely about what other people do, even if what they do is pretty much inconsequential. Of course things like misogyny and homophobia are about insecurity, because they involve unnecessary suspicion and scrutiny of others for your own (perceived) benefit.

Sure they may be confident and lack insecurity, but in general behaviour like that is not based in confidence. Why is "******" such an overused insult? Because homosexuality is still seen as less-than-ideal in society, and those that believe that it is less-than-ideal feel the need to assure everyone that they are straight... (then they get caught in a hotel bathroom with a rentboy and cocaine).

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

I was talking about the way that men themselves act. What you're talking about is pretty much going off an a completely unrelated tangent. I was talking about people within the male gender trying to keep up this "men have to be big tough and strong and not like girly shit" crap, and you go off about how men have to accept their lot in life and how people mock any push back against "men's rights". That isn't even vaguely related to what I was talking about. There's a discussion to be had in what you're talking about, but please make your own thread if you want to do that and don't derail mine.

Men being told to not complain and be stoic is unrelated to men being told not to complain and be stoic?

Men are told by women and society at large that they have to be stoic, not enjoy "Girly" stuff and hide their emotions. This affects their interests, their ability to care for their rights and a whole bunch of other things.

It's entirely relevant.

Men being told not to complain and remain stoic is not related to the topic at hand whatsoever. Stoicism and complaining did not get mentioned in my OP. At all.

Please do not derail my thread.