There seems to still be a lingering concept that things guys do need to be "manly" or "not girly"

apollogon

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DizzyChuggernaut said:
Ihateregistering1 said:
In essence, we're incapable of understanding why someone believes what they do, therefore they must be doing it to make up for something.
Okay I'll try to explain what I mean. If you are actually confident, you wouldn't get so upset at being called a girl or being called gay and you wouldn't feel as much of a need to constantly assert your masculinity and heterosexuality. If you simply like traditionally "masculine" things (in your case, guns), that's not the same as proudly exclaiming "wow you guys, look at how manly I am. I am totally not girly at all, honest".
You must be a girl. It's hard to understand different honor cultures when you haven't lived in them. For example in San Francisco, if you called someone gay they would probably shrug. In Texas however, do the same and you'll nearly universally get a fist/glass in your face. How people assert/defend their masculinity is how & where they're raised. It doesn't mean everyone in Texas is a closet homosexual OR insecure in their masculinity. That's patently absurd.

Edit: Forgot to mention why I said honor culture. Back before laws were as strict, defending your reputation was important to your success as a family. In some countries, honor culture is strong for varies reasons. The middle east is a good example of countries that are basically fallen civilizations which have become strong examples of honor culture (terrible though).
 

Erttheking

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DementedSheep said:
You know, most people don't just sit around and say "You know what? I'll be depressed." It's forced onto them. Something you should know if you were being truthful about being depressed. Victim blaming is NEVER justified.

And now we're just delving into stereotype territory. And really this just shows where your priorities lie. You want people who are depressed to shut their mouths and not get any help because if they tried to, it would cause inconvienence to you. That's the base of things really.
 

Dizchu

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apollogon said:
You must be a girl. It's hard to understand different honor cultures. For example in San Francisco, if you called someone gay they would probably shrug. In Texas however, do the same and you'll nearly universally get a fist/glass in your face. How people assert/defend their masculinity is how & where they're raised.
What I am asking is why do people feel the need to assert their masculinity? Punching someone in the face for making fun of you does not suggest the wrongness of that person, it suggests the insecurity or loose temper of the attacker. After all, if the accusation (of being gay or feminine) is incorrect, it'd surely show for itself?

The reason why the severity of the response differs depending on the place is because more conservative/religious places tend to have much stricter expectations of people, especially when it comes to gender roles. These are often places where the idea of people not conforming to tradition is horrifying. See the crazy preachers from the bible belt or the middle-east that think that gay marriage or women being able to go outside unaccompanied by a man is a sign of the literal downfall of civilisation (I'm not even kidding). If that's not insecurity then I don't know what is.

And no, they're not all closet homosexuals. Their aggressive behaviour doesn't necessarily have to caused by insecurity either. But with the latter it's a tendency and with the former it's not a surprising revelation.
 

Muspelheim

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The Lunatic said:
erttheking said:
Men being told not to complain and remain stoic is not related to the topic at hand whatsoever. Stoicism and complaining did not get mentioned in my OP. At all.

Please do not derail my thread.
So, you're saying you don't see any cross over between men being told to be stoic and male characters being portray in media as stoic?

"Manly crying" is "Manly crying" because it's regarded as an acceptable way to show emotion for a male. Only a certain times, within certain conditions, because emotion is something a lot of men are taught not to show unless in very certain situations.

This is re-enforced by men being mocked for standing up for their own rights, as standing up for one's rights is a displaying of emotion.
And, as I noted earlier, those certain conditions change with the times. Luckily in that regard, the current emphasis on stoic detachment from emotion as a male expectation appears to be changing. I'd expect that showing emotions will be a lot less discouraged in the future, although it certainly doesn't hurt starting now.
 

Ryan Hughes

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erttheking said:
Please do not derail my thread.
Far too late for that, I am afraid.
DementedSheep said:
Yes I am "victim blaming" because a lot time the victim dose deserve blame especially when their a victim of a problem that is their making.
And I did learn something for it. I learnt that people who are depressed are a huge drain on everyone else.
Homo homini lupus est, though in your case that would insult wolves.
 

apollogon

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DizzyChuggernaut said:
apollogon said:
You must be a girl. It's hard to understand different honor cultures. For example in San Francisco, if you called someone gay they would probably shrug. In Texas however, do the same and you'll nearly universally get a fist/glass in your face. How people assert/defend their masculinity is how & where they're raised.
What I am asking is why do people feel the need to assert their masculinity? Punching someone in the face for making fun of you does not suggest the wrongness of that person, it suggests the insecurity or loose temper of the attacker. After all, if the accusation (of being gay or feminine) is incorrect, it'd surely show for itself?

The reason why the severity of the response differs depending on the place is because more conservative/religious places tend to have much stricter expectations of people, especially when it comes to gender roles. These are often places where the idea of people not conforming to tradition is horrifying. See the crazy preachers from the bible belt or the middle-east that think that gay marriage or women being able to go outside unaccompanied by a man is a sign of the literal downfall of civilisation (I'm not even kidding). If that's not insecurity then I don't know what is.

And no, they're not all closet homosexuals. Their aggressive behaviour doesn't necessarily have to caused by insecurity either. But with the latter it's a tendency and with the former it's not a surprising revelation.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. I understand your POV. However you're making the mistake of thinking their actions are derived from personal choices they've made rather than what's been ingrained in them since birth. To them it's to use violence when they beat up someone who's perceptually damaged their reputation is justified. They'd think you're weird and insecure for not "standing up for yourself." This is why culture clash is so jarring overseas.

DizzyChuggernaut said:
See the crazy preachers from the bible belt or the middle-east that think that gay marriage or women being able to go outside unaccompanied by a man is a sign of the literal downfall of civilisation (I'm not even kidding). If that's not insecurity then I don't know what is.
Talking culture without context is difficult. Just because you see someone as immature/savage, doesn't make them so without knowing the context of their environment. They see themselves are diligently righteous (in your example). Now I'm not saying their religion ISN'T rooted in ignorant misunderstandings/prejudice. But remember these people are often illiterate. Not to mention if they didn't adhere to the beliefs of their peers, they'd be ostracized (or accused of apostasy & killed in the Islamic nations).

It's premature to assign insecurity if you misunderstand how these people feel.
 

Haerthan

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The Lunatic said:
snip[/QUOTE]

Someone clearly hasn't read some feminist literature.

Snark aside, European feminism (with an eye to German) is very much against the idea of "manning up" because it makes emotionally stunted people out of men. The idea of men's rights is based on that erroneous assumption. THe patriarchy fucked up an entire generation of men and is about to fuck up another one and the MRAs can't seem to see that clearly.And feminism is already for equality in all stages. But hey keep showing your ignorance of actual feminism.

And so is Canadian feminism, not so sure about the US though.
 

Mikeybb

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erttheking said:
*snip*

I'm honestly just rambling at this point. Do you think I'm full of it? If so please tell me. If you think my ramblings are onto something, have you encountered anything like this?
I'm not familiar with some of the examples you quoted, but I think I get where you're coming from.

Appearing manly always struck me as something which heavily concerned those who were not secure in their own identity.
I don't mean this as a jab at such people, more an observation from the time when I recognized it as being more important to myself.

Eventually, it didn't matter.
I suppose it was a little like that old saying which I'm about to mangle and misquote here.
"To be an adult is to put away childish things. Foremost amongst these is the fear of being considered childish."

To be 'manly' then, is to be unthreatened by the judgement of others and their opinions of what actions you take.
This isn't to say you are blind to the opinions of others, but that you do not let such opinions threaten your sense of self.
 

DementedSheep

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erttheking said:
DementedSheep said:
You know, most people don't just sit around and say "You know what? I'll be depressed." It's forced onto them. Something you should know if you were being truthful about being depressed. Victim blaming is NEVER justified.

And now we're just delving into stereotype territory. And really this just shows where your priorities lie. You want people who are depressed to shut their mouths and not get any help because if they tried to, it would cause inconvienence to you. That's the base of things really.
It's your thoughts and your feelings and your thoughts and feelings are who you are. You don't literally "choose" to be depressed, you don't "choose" how you feel on a lot of things but you chose how you act and it's still down to you. No one did this to you, it just a personal weakness. Victim blaming is a buzz phrase. You call someone a victim and now their not reasonable for own fucks ups and failings.

And its more than "inconvenience" a lot of the time. If you offload your shit onto someone else you bring them down, you cause them stress and you can negatively effect their life while they worry or try to help you. I got sick of being an emotional baggage dumping ground and seen too many other people in that situation who end up screwing themselves over to help someone else. I wouldn't want to do that to someone with a problem that's mine, certainly not to someone I care about.
 

Erttheking

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DementedSheep said:
erttheking said:
DementedSheep said:
You know, most people don't just sit around and say "You know what? I'll be depressed." It's forced onto them. Something you should know if you were being truthful about being depressed. Victim blaming is NEVER justified.

And now we're just delving into stereotype territory. And really this just shows where your priorities lie. You want people who are depressed to shut their mouths and not get any help because if they tried to, it would cause inconvienence to you. That's the base of things really.
It's you thoughts and your feelings and your thoughts and feelings are who you are. You don't literally "choose" to be depressed, you don't "choose" how you feel on a lot of things but you chose how you act and it's still down to you. No one did this to you, it just a personal weakness. Victim blaming is a buzz phrase. You call someone a victim and now their not reasonable for own fucks ups and failings.

And its more than "inconvenience" a lot of the time. If you offload your shit onto someone else you bring them down, you cause them stress and you can negatively effect their life while they worry or try to help you. I got sick of being an emotional baggage dumping ground and seen too many other people in that situation who end up screwing themselves over to help someone else. I wouldn't want to do that to someone with a problem that's mine, certainly not to someone I care about.
Weakness? It's called having empathy towards people. We aren't a pack of animals where the weak deserve to be weeded out and left to fend for themselves. Victim blaming is a buzz phrase? If that's the case then "weakness" and "failing" are too. How is being depressed a fuck up? Your advice to people who are depressed is basically "don't be depressed" like they just need to flick a switch, which really makes it hard for me to swallow that you have any experience with depression.

Hm. No, that sounds like inconvenience. If you don't want to help someone with their problem, then fine. Just don't tell me that you're their friend after that, because if you do, you're lying to me. A friend, a REAL friend, helps people through hardships, and doesn't just stop and give up because things got a little tough. Don't talk about weakness when stopping to help people is apparently too much for you to handle. It comes off as hypocritical. They're going through emotional torment and you can't handle listening to them? Really?

And tell me, I went to my friend with my problems when I was depressed. You know what happened? Know she knows she can come to me with her problems with she's depressed. What should I have done in that situation? According to you.
 

rorychief

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Lots of men's rights talk already. Ok. I know those people have a tendency to go off on unrelated tangents, but it does bring up a good point regarding OP. If men can be considered to be being (Beebeeing?) denied a right, the first one that come to mind is the right of expression by defining what masculinity means to them and applies to their lives rather than a very suffocating definition. In many ways the rigid and unforgiving enforcement of this gender role is far more severe for men than for women with the threat of violence and possibly death being the ultimate penalty for non compliance. (gay bashing etc. murder of trans women etc)
Yet very few mra's will get up in arms about not being allowed to wear dresses or speak flamboyantly or kiss other men in public or whatever, even though it is a clear inequality in that women who are so inclined do not get punished for these traits. I would say the test for a true and committed advocate for men's rights would be one who feels genuine empathy for the greatest victims of misandry, the queer effeminate men that don't fit a majority of men and women's expectations of what a man should be, and accepts that that particular bigotry is directly linked to misogyny. (womanly traits make you a weak person) And also, while women have a large role in determining these things, men are by far the most vocal and active victimizers of men, and when men feel alienated or trapped by the toughen up/act manly thing, they're primarily concerned about what other men will think of them.
Many men have it shit, boys don't cry is a horrible thing to impart on a child, but all this can be discussed without the involving the spectre of some uncaring feminist who denies that men have problems. If you see the problem discuss it. It shows your true intent when you overlook all the bullshit men do to men in favour of gunning straight for evil women to the exclusion of all else.

Sorry if I've derailed this. Just wanted to say.
 

Lightspeaker

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DementedSheep said:
It's your thoughts and your feelings and your thoughts and feelings are who you are. You don't literally "choose" to be depressed, you don't "choose" how you feel on a lot of things but you chose how you act and it's still down to you. No one did this to you, it just a personal weakness.
Tell me...do you go around telling paraplegics that their inability to walk is just a personal weakness and that they should just try really, really hard to stand? Do you tell blind people that their inability to see is something they should just "get over" by themselves? Do you tell the deaf that they're just choosing not to hear?

Depression, that is to say clinical depression, is a result of neurochemical imbalances and/or structural differences in the brain. It is NOT simply "being sad". If you don't know this then no, despite what you think and claim, you do NOT have personal experience with depression and you, personally, do not suffer from clinical depression. Because if you did you'd know better. Your friend might have been, but I'm glad for their sake that you didn't have the absurd ideas about depression that you evidently have now back then.

In short your claim that you do have personal experience with this is garbage. Because if you did have experience of it yourself then you'd know that most of what you're saying is nonsense.
 

apollogon

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rorychief said:
In many ways the rigid and unforgiving enforcement of this gender role is far more severe for men than for women with the threat of violence and possibly death being the ultimate penalty for non compliance. (gay bashing etc. murder of trans women etc)
Yet very few mra's will get up in arms about not being allowed to wear dresses or speak flamboyantly or kiss other men in public or whatever
They don't need to. The vast majority in politics are already about fighting for this. Maybe not in Uganda, though (where queer rights activists and feminists need to go to actually help lots of people).

rorychief said:
Many men have it shit, boys don't cry is a horrible thing to impart on a child
I've already said why men crying is seen as weak. Authority figures don't cry obviously to maintain authority (like father like son). Would you honestly trust a head of office or military general if they were crying their eyes out like an emotional train wreck? Especially when they're capable of IDK ending the world.
 

Shanahanapp

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I'm not sure I'd say it's lingering as much as it's still a pretty inherent part of being a guy. I mean I think it's dumb and honestly pay it no heed. I love a lot of girly stuff and I'm pretty open about it. And a lot of people seem to just be confused by that, like "But isn't that for girls?". It doesn't bother me to be honest. I like what I like. People finding that weird isn't gonna stop me.
 

rorychief

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apollogon said:
They don't need to. The vast majority in politics are already about fighting for this. Maybe not in Uganda, though (where queer rights activists and feminists need to go to actually help lots of people).

I've already said why men crying is seen as weak. Authority figures don't cry obviously to maintain authority (like father like son). Would you honestly trust a head of office or military general if they were crying their eyes out like an emotional train wreck? Especially when they're capable of IDK ending the world.
But they're the men that need the most fighting for. They often seem to be excluded from mra discussions for the sole reason that feminists already accept their problems as legitimate, and so they can't be used to make feminists seem callous to men. My point was the to legitimize the mra movement one would have to make a greater effort toward helping men in need, rather than damaging the image of feminism, which isn't a constructive way to help men at all. Its just an easy thing to do and feel righteous and self-satisfied in spite of garnering zero results.

That's true that it's humiliating to cry in public. Agreed. But its entirely possible to teach a child that shitting is a normal human process that every does, that it is in fact healthy and nothing to feel pathologically shamed or lesser or dirty for doing, and still have that child understand that their standing will drop in the eyes of others if they shit in public or otherwise inappropriate settings. In this metaphor boys are being told that only girls shit and even if you shit in private this is something you must fervently deny or you'll be ridiculed and mocked.
It is silly and damaging when men want to cry and the situation is absolutely a valid time to be crying, yet the natural welling of tears is accompanied by shame and self loathing and a desire to be away from all people who might offer comfort. Not saying I want to live in opposite world where devolving into a hysterical mess has suddenly become the sign of a great and level headed leader.
 

apollogon

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rorychief said:
apollogon said:
They don't need to. The vast majority in politics are already about fighting for this. Maybe not in Uganda, though (where queer rights activists and feminists need to go to actually help lots of people).

I've already said why men crying is seen as weak. Authority figures don't cry obviously to maintain authority (like father like son). Would you honestly trust a head of office or military general if they were crying their eyes out like an emotional train wreck? Especially when they're capable of IDK ending the world.
But they're the men that need the most fighting for. They often seem to be excluded from mra discussions for the sole reason that feminists already accept their problems as legitimate, and so they can't be used to make feminists seem callous to men. My point was the to legitimize the mra movement one would have to make a greater effort toward helping men in need, rather than damaging the image of feminism, which isn't a constructive way to help men at all. Its just an easy thing to do and feel righteous and self-satisfied in spite of garnering zero results.

That's true that it's humiliating to cry in public. Agreed. But its entirely possible to teach a child that shitting is a normal human process that every does, that it is in fact healthy and nothing to feel pathologically shamed or lesser or dirty for doing, and still have that child understand that their standing will drop in the eyes of others if they shit in public or otherwise inappropriate settings. In this metaphor boys are being told that only girls shit and even if you shit in private this is something you must fervently deny or you'll be ridiculed and mocked.
It is silly and damaging when men want to cry and the situation is absolutely a valid time to be crying, yet the natural welling of tears is accompanied by shame and self loathing and a desire to be away from all people who might offer comfort. Not saying I want to live in opposite world where devolving into a hysterical mess has suddenly become the sign of a great and level headed leader.
I don't know much about them but you're expecting too much. Focusing on smaller ranges of issues makes your more effective. Part of the reason why feminism these days is so ineffectual.

I think the "men/boys don't want to cry or feel shame" is a interesting topic. Because it's complicated from any singular perspective you look at it. Recently an aunt of mine died. Didn't really know her. Funeral came and didn't care or feel. But when my father cried during the descent, I felt his pain and cried also. Don't know why but I did.

Perhaps it was empathy. Although whenever my mother cries (which was more often), I feel nothing. It feels meaningless. Perhaps it was not empathy. Could be the fact by remaining stoic and avoiding meaningless cries, it empowers the times you do.

Men are not women and men do not like being told that they're being held back from acting like women (excluding exceptions). There is more subtly than what OP implies.
 

DementedSheep

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erttheking said:
DementedSheep said:
erttheking said:
DementedSheep said:
You know, most people don't just sit around and say "You know what? I'll be depressed." It's forced onto them. Something you should know if you were being truthful about being depressed. Victim blaming is NEVER justified.

And now we're just delving into stereotype territory. And really this just shows where your priorities lie. You want people who are depressed to shut their mouths and not get any help because if they tried to, it would cause inconvienence to you. That's the base of things really.
It's you thoughts and your feelings and your thoughts and feelings are who you are. You don't literally "choose" to be depressed, you don't "choose" how you feel on a lot of things but you chose how you act and it's still down to you. No one did this to you, it just a personal weakness. Victim blaming is a buzz phrase. You call someone a victim and now their not reasonable for own fucks ups and failings.

And its more than "inconvenience" a lot of the time. If you offload your shit onto someone else you bring them down, you cause them stress and you can negatively effect their life while they worry or try to help you. I got sick of being an emotional baggage dumping ground and seen too many other people in that situation who end up screwing themselves over to help someone else. I wouldn't want to do that to someone with a problem that's mine, certainly not to someone I care about.
Weakness? It's called having empathy towards people. We aren't a pack of animals where the weak deserve to be weeded out and left to fend for themselves. Victim blaming is a buzz phrase? If that's the case then "weakness" and "failing" are too. How is being depressed a fuck up? Your advice to people who are depressed is basically "don't be depressed" like they just need to flick a switch, which really makes it hard for me to swallow that you have any experience with depression.

Hm. No, that sounds like inconvenience. If you don't want to help someone with their problem, then fine. Just don't tell me that you're their friend after that, because if you do, you're lying to me. A friend, a REAL friend, helps people through hardships, and doesn't just stop and give up because things got a little tough. Don't talk about weakness when stopping to help people is apparently too much for you to handle. It comes off as hypocritical. They're going through emotional torment and you can't handle listening to them? Really?

And tell me, I went to my friend with my problems when I was depressed. You know what happened? Know she knows she can come to me with her problems with she's depressed. What should I have done in that situation? According to you.
Depression is having empathy towards others? because depression is what I was calling emotional weakness although there is such a thing as having too much empathy.

I never said anything about being able to flick a switch and not be depressed. I said you should deal with it on your own, there is a difference.

Sure friends help friends with issue but there is a limit and friends should also be aware that everyone has their own problems and don't need you adding more so they having to deal with their own problems and yours. There is mutual leaning on each other but the problem with depression is it's all in your head, it's all the time regardless of whether there is something in particular wrong and not something the other person can even do anything about. Being there for someone all time is a drain regardless of if you want to help them. If I told my mother I was depressed would I not be depressed? no but now she something else to worry about. The amount of times I've seen someone stuck in a bad relationship because the other person was depressed and they're afraid the person will commit suicide if they leave is almost getting ridicules. Like it or not being openly depressed dose harm others.
You can continue to think I'm lying about having issue with depression if it makes my viewpoint easer to swallow but I just don't try to downplay negative things about myself to feel better.
 

apollogon

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DementedSheep said:
Depression is having empathy towards others? because depression is what I was calling emotional weakness although there is such a thing as having too much empathy.

I never said anything about being able to flick a switch and not be depressed. I said you should deal with it on your own, there is a difference.
You guys are fighting over what it means to be depressed. You both need to clearly define what depression IS before you try and argue over it.

Are you talking about clinical depression or feeling sadness/depression? Because you cannot "deal with it" if you are suffering hormonal problems (in my mothers case, a tumor pressing against some gland). In fact it's very dangerous to prematurely give someone who hasn't gotten a blood test yet to fight/overcome it. Hell, it might be a death sentence. If your point is for extremely negative people to not drag others down, argue that.
 

the December King

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Ryan Hughes said:
A true story best illustrates my view:

A man in his forties once broke his arm. For his cast, he asked the doctor for a fiberglass wrapping featuring a motif of pink and purple teddy bears on a white background. No one who knew this man said anything to challenge his "manliness." However, a few strangers throughout his recovery did choose to stare, laugh, and even quietly mock him behind his back for his choice. Thankfully for those that mocked him, this man chose to either ignore or forgive them. People such as them could not bring this man down, as he was confident, not in some vague idea of manliness, but just in who he was as a person.

The man's name is not important, but what is important is knowing who he is: In the past he grew up on the wrong side of Las Vegas, he was exposed to heavy gang activity as a teen, eventually he was pressured to join a gang. After he survived being stabbed on two separate occasions, and being shot in the chest once, he decided to go straight, and began a career in martial arts teaching. Between then and the time when he broke his arm, he earned seven stripes on his black belt, commendations from numerous police agencies nationwide for assistance in training their officers, and several invitations to train at the (Northern) Shaolin Temple in Hunan Province, China. He had broken his arm by making a minor error while demonstrating how to break seven bricks with only your bare hands.

I saw a picture that had been taken of him while he wore the cast, and I asked him why he chose it. He replied dismissively, "I don't know, I just liked that one the most." And that is just it: it has nothing to do with whatever arbitrary definitions society may come up with for what is "manly" or not, and indeed, these definitions seem to shift frequently. Just be who you are, because if you are a man, then indeed there is no reason for you to act manly.
I dunno, man. I don't know how I want to weigh in on this thread, exactly, as I consider ertheKings thread kinda important, as I myself am going through some issues with gender identity and roles.

But a black belt who can beat everyone up can wear or do whatever he wants? Of course, it's not going to bother him if some people laugh, and he's certainly confident in his manhood- because he regularly breaks stone with his hands, got shot in a gang of toughs, and engages in hand to hand combat with people. Simply put, he already has engaged in many, many masculine, almost hyper-masculine endeavours. Great that he feels like he can wear something a bit feminine in design on occasion. But we all can't be ex-gangster ninja champions. He has that confidence to fall back on, and feel free to express himself.

I certainly don't mean to disparage the message, I think you are right- we should all be so confident, and do as we please, gender roles be damned. But this guy's life is not an everyman's tale, exactly.
 

Inglorious891

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Haerthan said:
The Lunatic said:
snip[/QUOTE]

Someone clearly hasn't read some feminist literature.

Snark aside, European feminism (with an eye to German) is very much against the idea of "manning up" because it makes emotionally stunted people out of men. The idea of men's rights is based on that erroneous assumption. THe patriarchy fucked up an entire generation of men and is about to fuck up another one and the MRAs can't seem to see that clearly.And feminism is already for equality in all stages. But hey keep showing your ignorance of actual feminism.

And so is Canadian feminism, not so sure about the US though.[/quote]

"Feminisim" is made up of a hell of a lot of different beliefs, and not all of them include giving the slightest shit about men, so claiming that anyone that disagrees with your view of feminism is just ignorant and that ALL of feminism matches up with your views is just silly.

[QUOTE=erttheking]snip[/QUOTE]

There's something REALLY wrong with bronies (in my experience, anyone who feels the need to claim to be a fan of MLP is a brony), and it goes way beyond issues with masculinity; those simple issues wouldn't cause the rather creepy and obsessive ways bronies act.

But yeah, I would say there's still a concept concerning what masculinity is and how guys need to meet some certain masculine standard, it's just that most people consider it a non-issue, especially sense most gender roll topics concern women in some way, either directly or indirecty. That, and most people can talk about feminism IRL without people looking at them like they grew a third head, but if I went on CBS to talk about "toxic masculinity" there'd be a lot of people who would have those "third head" reactions.