There seems to still be a lingering concept that things guys do need to be "manly" or "not girly"

apollogon

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the December King said:
Simply put, he already has engaged in many, many masculine, almost hyper-masculine endeavours.
Come on now. A guy benching 700lb while receiving a BJ from another guy doing squat thrusts is hyper-masculine. That black belt is a badass, not excessively masculine.
 

The Bucket

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Haerthan said:
The Lunatic said:
snip[/QUOTE]

Someone clearly hasn't read some feminist literature.

Snark aside, European feminism (with an eye to German) is very much against the idea of "manning up" because it makes emotionally stunted people out of men. The idea of men's rights is based on that erroneous assumption. THe patriarchy fucked up an entire generation of men and is about to fuck up another one and the MRAs can't seem to see that clearly.And feminism is already for equality in all stages. But hey keep showing your ignorance of actual feminism.

And so is Canadian feminism, not so sure about the US though.[/quote]

I wouldn't identify as an MRA personally, and there are definitely crackpot elements in the movement (who get way more coverage than they deserve) but I dont personally disagree with the movement in principle. Feminism is defined as the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes. There is definitely some truth in the fact that problems feminists try to address would positively impact men if they solved them. But the fact is that many mainstream feminist groups put emphasis on male allies taking a step back and allowing women to take the lead. It isnt an equal partnership movement between the sexes, and I dont even think that's a bad thing. Many organizations who would fit the definition of MRAs do great work in establishing mens shelters, combating homelessness, attempting to address certain inequalities in the court etc.

Edit:
[QUOTE=apollogon][QUOTE=DementedSheep]
Depression is having empathy towards others? because depression is what I was calling emotional weakness although there is such a thing as having too much empathy.

I never said anything about being able to flick a switch and not be depressed. I said you should deal with it on your own, there is a difference.[/QUOTE]
You guys are fighting over what it means to be depressed. You both need to clearly define what depression IS before you try and argue over it.

Are you talking about clinical depression or feeling sadness/depression? Because you cannot "deal with it" if you are suffering hormonal problems (in my mothers case, a tumor pressing against some gland). In fact it's very dangerous to prematurely give someone who hasn't gotten a blood test yet to fight/overcome it. Hell, it might be a death sentence. If your point is for extremely negative people to not drag others down, argue that.[/quote]
The concept of depression has really been diluted from self diagnosis, like many other things. If someone has a bad day and feels sad, they're "depressed". If they are nervous about stuff, they have "anxiety issues". Whereas clinical depression has measurable physical and chemical effects that cant be reliably combated without treatment.
 

Haerthan

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The Bucket said:
Oh really? I am a dude. I attended feminist classes, where feminism was taught. Since feminism has been part of academia for a long time now. NOWHERE have I ever seen that feminist groups put emphasis on male allies taking a step back. So the MRAs need to stop pulling that shit out of their ass.
'
What I am saying is CITATION NEEDED

Edit: The ones that do that are radicals. Shunned by the mainstream feminists.

Inglorious891 said:
Yes it is made up of many different beliefs. But all true feminists agree on equality between sexes. There is a reason most feminist shun the radicals in their groups. And stop fucking reading Twitter and Tumblr. Read some actual feminist academia. There is a reason why TERFs and SWERFs are shunned. They aren't real feminists. They are radicals. But hey keep fighting that strawman that you keep making. The real world is far different than what you seem to think it is.

Captcha: know your paradoxes. Oddly well-placed Captcha. Become sentient and I will shoot you dead.
 

Angelblaze

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The Lunatic said:


Stuff like this really doesn't help.

In fact, the whole rallying against "Men's rights" is pretty much entirely what you're describing.

Men are expected to simply accept their lot in life, and any attempt to fight for better rights on issues if often met with assumptions and mockery.

Essentially you're telling men that they're not allowed to complain about things, because, men aren't allowed to do that. Worst of all, it's often done by people who describe themselves as feminists, people who are trying to change social norms at one moment, and then using them as a mockery in the next.
Actually, most of the time in my experience its other men telling men not to feel emotional cause that's 'gay' or being 'overly sensitive' or a 'pussy'. But okay, lets make nice sweeping generalizations.

(Also, feminism has been in overwhelming support for men doing more 'effeminate' things since 2nd to 3rd wave. This includes being open with emotions and fulfilling roles in society not previously thought to be traditionally attributed to men.)
 

gLoveofLove

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Haerthan said:
The Bucket said:
Oh really? I am a dude. I attended feminist classes, where feminism was taught. Since feminism has been part of academia for a long time now. NOWHERE have I ever seen that feminist groups put emphasis on male allies taking a step back. So the MRAs need to stop pulling that shit out of their ass.
'
What I am saying is CITATION NEEDED

Inglorious891 said:
Yes it is made up of many different beliefs. But all true feminists agree on equality between sexes. There is a reason most feminist shun the radicals in their groups. And stop fucking reading Twitter and Tumblr. Read some actual feminist academia. There is a reason why TERFs and SWERFs are shunned. They aren't real feminists. They are radicals. But hey keep fighting that strawman that you keep making. The real world is far different than what you seem to think it is.

Captcha: know your paradoxes. Oddly well-placed Captcha. Become sentient and I will shoot you dead.
It's quite impressive how you can accuse someone of strawmanning and use a "no true Scotsman" in almost the same breath.
And that's not even mentioning your first post in which you claim TheLunatic hasn't read any feminist literature and then continue to spread misinformation and straw man the MRA.
 

rorychief

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apollogon said:
I don't know much about them but you're expecting too much. Focusing on smaller ranges of issues makes your more effective. Part of the reason why feminism these days is so ineffectual.

I think the "men/boys don't want to cry or feel shame" is a interesting topic. Because it's complicated from any singular perspective you look at it. Recently an aunt of mine died. Didn't really know her. Funeral came and didn't care or feel. But when my father cried during the descent, I felt his pain and cried also. Don't know why but I did.

Perhaps it was empathy. Although whenever my mother cries (which was more often), I feel nothing. It feels meaningless. Perhaps it was not empathy. Could be the fact by remaining stoic and avoiding meaningless cries, it empowers the times you do.

Men are not women and men do not like being told that they're being held back from acting like women (excluding exceptions). There is more subtly than what OP implies.
I suppose it is the nature of a special interest group to be specialized in their goals. It just seems to me that many people who have the energy to fight for these things waste that energy on attacking 'rival' causes, and that is ultimately a loss of energy or passion or drive that could be put to productive use.

That's an interesting example with your father. I remember fighting with my ex once (who was crying) and eventually welling up myself. As soon as I did her whole posture changed and she dropped aggression for acting as though she was in horror of having gone too far. Afterward she said that because she had never seen me cry before made that incident seem catastrophic or otherwise massively significant, in a way that read to her as more devastating than what had triggered herself. Guess by being deeply ashamed of crying it rules out the idea that you could consider employing it as a form of emotional manipulation, and so making someone like that cry is defeating not just their present willpower to retain composure, but all their accumulated pride and conditioning toward their ideal self on which they've propped up their identity. Ouch.

This is true of stoic expressionless characters in fiction, where those small far and few between moments of humanity or pathos shine out as blinding beacons of insight into who they are, what gets to them, what they care about, just for the fact that so little gets through and affects them that, as you said, it empowers the times something does.

But on the subject of stoic leaders. I wouldn't want to see them cry, but I also wouldn't want to believe that they never let themselves cry. Such a person's repressed healthy emotions like sadness would inevitably surface as irrational rage, fear, or an overwhelmingly insecure concern for saving face and establishing dominance. Such a person would be more of a liability I'd wager if given control of a nuclear arsenal, or whatever high level of responsibility we're imagining, than a weepy self-pitying person.
 

Inglorious891

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Haerthan said:
Inglorious891 said:
Yes it is made up of many different beliefs. But all true feminists agree on equality between sexes. There is a reason most feminist shun the radicals in their groups. And stop fucking reading Twitter and Tumblr. Read some actual feminist academia. There is a reason why TERFs and SWERFs are shunned. They aren't real feminists. They are radicals. But hey keep fighting that strawman that you keep making. The real world is far different than what you seem to think it is.

Captcha: know your paradoxes. Oddly well-placed Captcha. Become sentient and I will shoot you dead.
Are "true" feminists only those who agree with your beliefs? You seem to think feminism only exists in two camps: radicals (who aren't real feminists anyway) and actual feminists. Just because they don't share your beliefs doesn't mean they're automatically radicals, especially since what is and isn't "radical" is completely up to personal opinion. You can't just claim that any feminist who disagrees with you is a "radical" and shouldn't be listened to, then go around and be all aggressive and holier-than-thou when discussing feminism just because you've attended a few classes and read a few books which all cause you to think you know more about feminism then everyone else.

And for the record, I've seen a lot of "actual" feminist organizations and views that feminists have (and no, these aren't Tumblr/Twitter) and I've found that there are a lot of opposing views; nothing inherently wrong with this of course, but their views are still opposing.


Angelblaze said:
The Lunatic said:
Actually, most of the time in my experience its other men telling men not to feel emotional cause that's 'gay' or being 'overly sensitive' or a 'pussy'. But okay, lets make nice sweeping generalizations.

(Also, feminism has been in overwhelming support for men doing more 'effeminate' things since 2nd to 3rd wave. This includes being open with emotions and fulfilling roles in society not previously thought to be traditionally attributed to men.)
The whole "male tears" idea is more tied with feminsts making fun of MRAs complaining about stuff that they apparently shouldn't complain about. Other than that, yeah men more often do make fun of other men for not being manly, but one of the main reasons that men feel the need to be manly is because manliness encompasses a lot of traits that women find attractive in men. In order words (because I feel like I may have described that poorly), if a guy isn't manly he's never going to be in a relationship because most women aren't going to be attracted to him.
 

Haerthan

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gLoveofLove said:
Haerthan said:
The Bucket said:
Oh really? I am a dude. I attended feminist classes, where feminism was taught. Since feminism has been part of academia for a long time now. NOWHERE have I ever seen that feminist groups put emphasis on male allies taking a step back. So the MRAs need to stop pulling that shit out of their ass.
'
What I am saying is CITATION NEEDED

Inglorious891 said:
Yes it is made up of many different beliefs. But all true feminists agree on equality between sexes. There is a reason most feminist shun the radicals in their groups. And stop fucking reading Twitter and Tumblr. Read some actual feminist academia. There is a reason why TERFs and SWERFs are shunned. They aren't real feminists. They are radicals. But hey keep fighting that strawman that you keep making. The real world is far different than what you seem to think it is.

Captcha: know your paradoxes. Oddly well-placed Captcha. Become sentient and I will shoot you dead.
It's quite impressive how you can accuse someone of strawmanning and use a "no true Scotsman" in almost the same breath.
And that's not even mentioning your first post in which you claim TheLunatic hasn't read any feminist literature and then continue to spread misinformation and straw man the MRA.
"No true Scotsman" would only apply if the radicals weren't shunned. But guess what: radicals are shunned by the feminists, both 1st, 2nd AND 3rd wave feminists. (well less 1st, cause they be dead and their fight in the West is more or less done). And yes I accuse people of strawmanning when people claim that feminism wants to put women in a position of power (biggest BS this side of the freaking Atlantic since American intervention).

Also I can claim that TheLunatic hasnt read any feminist literature when he comes with bullshit such as : feminist organizations tell their male allies to take a step back. I read feminist literature. No such thing is stated in it. So yea read some feminist literature and maybe stop believing what Thunderfoot (ehhh scientist my ass) and Sargon of Akkad tell you.

What have we learned today kids? Don't trust everything on the Internet.
 

Erttheking

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DementedSheep said:
No. You should be feeling empathy towards these people. You shouldn't be talking about how they're weak and have no pride.

You made a reference to their "fuck ups and failings" in regards to them being depressed, so really you make it sound like they just need to stop fucking up to stop being depressed. An oversimplification of depression if there ever was one, and which frankly isn't that far away from saying "Just stop being depressed.

See, there's a term for that. Fair weather friends. Friends who are only around when things are convenient for them. Fair weather friends are not real friends. It's all in their head? Half of the things we experience is "just in your head". That lunch you ate and thought it was delicious? It's because signals got sent to your brain telling you that it was good. The feeling of happiness when we have a good day is our brain telling the body to produce more hormones because it decided we were in a good mood. So when you say depression is "all in your head" that means NOTHING because half of our life is "just in your head." It's a drain? So? It's a drain? School is a drain. Work is a drain. I don't throw my hands up because of that. Yes, your mom would worry. She's your mother. It's her JOB to worry about you. She's worried about your school, your job, your health, your grades, your living conditions and your eating habits. I don't know your mother, but I doubt she's incapable of also worrying about how you feel. And there's a difference between being depressed and being sad. Telling your friends about your depression might make them sad or worried, but it wouldn't make them depressed, which is a freaking medical condition and not just a state of mind. Pretty it up however you want, you want depressed people to sacrifice their long term mental health just because you don't want to put in the effort to help them. Oh, I guess the should've just left and let the depressed person kill themselves. And if the depressed person had just been quiet about it...they would've committed suicide anyway. So I'm not sure how your proposal would solve that problem. And there's a difference between being depressed and threatening suicide to keep someone in a relationship.

Oh, I don't doubt you had issues with depression. I just don't feel like you learned a thing from it. Something you have yet to convince me wrong on.
 

apollogon

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rorychief said:
But on the subject of stoic leaders. I wouldn't want to see them cry, but I also wouldn't want to believe that they never let themselves cry. Such a person's repressed healthy emotions like sadness would inevitably surface as irrational rage, fear, or an overwhelmingly insecure concern for saving face and establishing dominance. Such a person would be more of a liability I'd wager if given control of a nuclear arsenal, or whatever high level of responsibility we're imagining, than a weepy self-pitying person.
I'm always curious with people who think all men need to cry to deal with sadness and say "otherwise they're repressed or stunted." A good life-long friend of mine always goes on long runs to mull over all his emotional afflictions (I run with him occasionally). Running in a very quite state of deep thought. Something most don't do these days. Too busy filling the voids with meaningless chatter or busywork.

He doesn't seem emotionally unstable or broken but the opposite. Incredibly caring and tolerant people can be the most unconventional by societies standards. Or maybe he's just a sociopath and I haven't caught on yet.
 

Haerthan

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Inglorious891 said:
Congratulations. YOu just took what I said and completely misunderstood it. Never thought I would actually see that. There is a ton of things that feminists dont agree between each other. However at the core of it all there is the idea that EQUALITY BETWEEN SEXES is the objective. Radicals such as TERFS (Trans-exclusionary radical feminists) and SWERFS (Sex-Work Exclusionary Radical Feminists) are just some of them. True feminists actively shun those bigots.

Second. Read some feminist literature (seriously you really need to cause it seems you are unable to understand what feminism actually stands for). There was no feminist that said what you claim that MRAs should shut up about what they are fighting for (and lets face most of us have had the bad kind of experience with MRAs). If there was, then it most likely was a radical feminist, already shunned by feminist

Feminism has always been about equality. Hell feminists fight against patriarchy because it also makes out of men emotionally stunted people. But hey keep spouting that stupid strawman that feminists told MRAs to shut up. Might want to back that shit up with sources.

Captcha: how interesting. THat is how I find your lack of sources.
 

Haerthan

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Inglorious891 said:
Congratulations. YOu just took what I said and completely misunderstood it. Never thought I would actually see that. There is a ton of things that feminists dont agree between each other. However at the core of it all there is the idea that EQUALITY BETWEEN SEXES is the objective. Radicals such as TERFS (Trans-exclusionary radical feminists) and SWERFS (Sex-Work Exclusionary Radical Feminists) are just some of them. True feminists actively shun those bigots.

Second. Read some feminist literature (seriously you really need to cause it seems you are unable to understand what feminism actually stands for). There was no feminist that said what you claim that MRAs should shut up about what they are fighting for (and lets face most of us have had the bad kind of experience with MRAs). If there was, then it most likely was a radical feminist, already shunned by feminist

Feminism has always been about equality. Hell feminists fight against patriarchy because it also makes out of men emotionally stunted people. But hey keep spouting that stupid strawman that feminists told MRAs to shut up. Might want to back that shit up with sources.

Captcha: how interesting. THat is how I find your lack of sources.
 

Redryhno

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Haerthan said:
Inglorious891 said:
Congratulations. YOu just took what I said and completely misunderstood it. Never thought I would actually see that. There is a ton of things that feminists dont agree between each other. However at the core of it all there is the idea that EQUALITY BETWEEN SEXES is the objective. Radicals such as TERFS (Trans-exclusionary radical feminists) and SWERFS (Sex-Work Exclusionary Radical Feminists) are just some of them. True feminists actively shun those bigots.

Second. Read some feminist literature (seriously you really need to cause it seems you are unable to understand what feminism actually stands for). There was no feminist that said what you claim that MRAs should shut up about what they are fighting for (and lets face most of us have had the bad kind of experience with MRAs). If there was, then it most likely was a radical feminist, already shunned by feminist

Feminism has always been about equality. Hell feminists fight against patriarchy because it also makes out of men emotionally stunted people. But hey keep spouting that stupid strawman that feminists told MRAs to shut up. Might want to back that shit up with sources.

Captcha: how interesting. THat is how I find your lack of sources.
It's funny...

There's that same phrase always repeated ad nauseum around here lately, with no variation.

"read feminist literature". There's never any specifics, or feminists deemed actual feminists worthy of being read and not...whatever the extra lettered crap is along with radfems. And when people go and find people like McElroy and Sommers because they're sorta some of the first things to pop up in a search, they're told they aren't looking in the right places and they need to look harder.

I took some engineering classes and read some engineering books, doesn't make me anymore qualified to do engineering things than it does to make you an expert on all feminist practices and what does and doesn't make a feminist. Just a quick look through wiki is very nearly a copy of what you're saying. I'd hope you could make a better argument than that if you've taken classes and read the books.

Heck, the only thing I see more of is more of these radfems you keep saying are shunned by Feminism and are regularly deemed not feminists, but you'd think that would mean a gradual decrease with a few spikes maybe of how many of them you see. But that is all that people see nowadays. For every one well-meaning Feminist that actually wants equality, you've got two dozen "PUNCH UP", "PATRIARCHY IS TOTES REAL, YOU JUST CAN'T SEE IT BECAUSE YOU'RE SURROUNDED BY IT","SHIFT THE SCALES", "RAPE CULTURE", "BENEVOLENT SEXISM IS WORSE THAN MISOGYNY" types.

There's just no way I can believe anything you say on this subject. Not that MRA's are all that different, but at least they don't make a habit of getting caught on camera interrupting Feminist lecture halls and rallies with yelling, false fire alarms, and insults.

Also, as an aside, go ahead and say you don't like Thunderfoot, that you don't agree with his views, or even that he's an arrogant prick with a bone the size of a Megalodon to pick with feminists, but don't go and say he's not a scientist when he's put in the effort to be granted a PhD in...Chemistry I think. I don't agree with most of what he says, but that doesn't give you the right to say he's not when he has proven that he at least has the stubbornness to go through eight years of university for his degree.
 

Nate Gomez

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erttheking said:
I'm honestly just rambling at this point. Do you think I'm full of it? If so please tell me. If you think my ramblings are onto something, have you encountered anything like this?
Seems to me like The Lunatic was your best chance at this thread not being derailed.
 

Haerthan

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Redryhno said:
Haerthan said:
Inglorious891 said:
Congratulations. YOu just took what I said and completely misunderstood it. Never thought I would actually see that. There is a ton of things that feminists dont agree between each other. However at the core of it all there is the idea that EQUALITY BETWEEN SEXES is the objective. Radicals such as TERFS (Trans-exclusionary radical feminists) and SWERFS (Sex-Work Exclusionary Radical Feminists) are just some of them. True feminists actively shun those bigots.

Second. Read some feminist literature (seriously you really need to cause it seems you are unable to understand what feminism actually stands for). There was no feminist that said what you claim that MRAs should shut up about what they are fighting for (and lets face most of us have had the bad kind of experience with MRAs). If there was, then it most likely was a radical feminist, already shunned by feminist

Feminism has always been about equality. Hell feminists fight against patriarchy because it also makes out of men emotionally stunted people. But hey keep spouting that stupid strawman that feminists told MRAs to shut up. Might want to back that shit up with sources.

Captcha: how interesting. THat is how I find your lack of sources.
It's funny...

There's that same phrase always repeated ad nauseum around here lately, with no variation.

"read feminist literature". There's never any specifics, or feminists deemed actual feminists worthy of being read and not...whatever the extra lettered crap is along with radfems. And when people go and find people like McElroy and Sommers because they're sorta some of the first things to pop up in a search, they're told they aren't looking in the right places and they need to look harder.

I took some engineering classes and read some engineering books, doesn't make me anymore qualified to do engineering things than it does to make you an expert on all feminist practices and what does and doesn't make a feminist. Just a quick look through wiki is very nearly a copy of what you're saying. I'd hope you could make a better argument than that if you've taken classes and read the books.

Heck, the only thing I see more of is more of these radfems you keep saying are shunned by Feminism and are regularly deemed not feminists, but you'd think that would mean a gradual decrease with a few spikes maybe of how many of them you see. But that is all that people see nowadays. For every one well-meaning Feminist that actually wants equality, you've got two dozen "PUNCH UP", "PATRIARCHY IS TOTES REAL, YOU JUST CAN'T SEE IT BECAUSE YOU'RE SURROUNDED BY IT","SHIFT THE SCALES", "RAPE CULTURE", "BENEVOLENT SEXISM IS WORSE THAN MISOGYNY" types.

There's just no way I can believe anything you say on this subject. Not that MRA's are all that different, but at least they don't make a habit of getting caught on camera interrupting Feminist lecture halls and rallies with yelling, false fire alarms, and insults.

Also, as an aside, go ahead and say you don't like Thunderfoot, that you don't agree with his views, or even that he's an arrogant prick with a bone the size of a Megalodon to pick with feminists, but don't go and say he's not a scientist when he's put in the effort to be granted a PhD in...Chemistry I think. I don't agree with most of what he says, but that doesn't give you the right to say he's not when he has proven that he at least has the stubbornness to go through eight years of university for his degree.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_feminist_literature

My favorites were always SImone de Beauvoir and Betty Friedan and Judith Butler. So get to reading. You got a long read ahead of yourself boy.

"PATRIARCHY IS TOTES REAL, YOU JUST CAN'T SEE IT BECAUSE YOU'RE SURROUNDED BY IT","SHIFT THE SCALES", "RAPE CULTURE", except that is actually true. Patriarchy affects both men and women negatively, making men into emotionless automatons. Rape culture is simple: blaming the victim. I would show you more but its late and I cant be bothered. Also I never heard of anyone ever saying "punch up". Changing the culture is just one way in a trip to equality. Don't believe me? Just look at India and its issues with regards to rape. Look up the banning of India's Daughter, a documentary about the 2012 rape of an Indian student where there is an interview with one of the rapists. Do not come to me and tell me Rape culture isnt a thing. For a more Western example: Rehtae Parsons, Steubenville US. The victims were blamed not the perpetrators.

And Thunderfoot is an idiot. Pure and simple. Maybe he has a PhD. But he is acting like he doesn't have one. His critical thinking skills are lacking. His literary skills are non-existent.. But that might just be a deficiency of the US educational system. At least in Canada you have to take some art classes which teach you some form of critical thinking. His clear inability to empathize with rape victims. Do I need to go on with whats wrong with that scumbag? And yes I consider him scum.

EDIT: again back up your allegations of feminists pulling fire alarms on MRAs.
 

Redryhno

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Haerthan said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_feminist_literature

My favorites were always SImone de Beauvoir and Betty Friedan and Judith Butler. So get to reading. You got a long read ahead of yourself boy.

"PATRIARCHY IS TOTES REAL, YOU JUST CAN'T SEE IT BECAUSE YOU'RE SURROUNDED BY IT","SHIFT THE SCALES", "RAPE CULTURE", except that is actually true. Patriarchy affects both men and women negatively, making men into emotionless automatons. Rape culture is simple: blaming the victim. I would show you more but its late and I cant be bothered. Also I never heard of anyone ever saying "punch up". Changing the culture is just one way in a trip to equality. Don't believe me? Just look at India and its issues with regards to rape. Look up the banning of India's Daughter, a documentary about the 2012 rape of an Indian student where there is an interview with one of the rapists. Do not come to me and tell me Rape culture isnt a thing. For a more Western example: Rehtae Parsons, Steubenville US. The victims were blamed not the perpetrators.

And Thunderfoot is an idiot. Pure and simple. Maybe he has a PhD. But he is acting like he doesn't have one. His critical thinking skills are lacking. His literary skills are non-existent.. But that might just be a deficiency of the US educational system. At least in Canada you have to take some art classes which teach you some form of critical thinking. His clear inability to empathize with rape victims. Do I need to go on with whats wrong with that scumbag? And yes I consider him scum.
Well that's a first, every other time someone has requested you tell them what to read, you've ignored them from what I've seen.

But guess what? I've read some as well, I can't remember their names because names are not something I've ever been good with, I've got a couple Feminist friends, and I like to think I've got a decent knowledge of Feminist thought, but I'm still not going to go and act like I know everything as you are. And more copies from Wiki? Well, you're consistent if nothing else.

"Emotionless Automatons". Wha? I have literally never seen an emotionless automaton male, I'm the closest I've ever met to that, and that has nothing to do with patriarchy, since I was raised to just be me, who happens to be a private person and I don't emote well as a general rule in public unless it's around alot of friends for a variety of reasons. Could you perhaps give me examples of these Emotionless Automatons that have become common because of the patriarchy?

Ah yes, "blaming the victim". A phrase that has lost meaning because people have started using it for silly cases like believing that it happened, but not that the accused did it right off the bat. Just look at the Duke villainization and that Rolling Stone article a few months back for examples. People were skeptical about parts of it and were accused of victim blaming because they didn't believe every single thing that the "victim" said. And guess what? Both cases were found to be exaggerations and/or outright lies with still no apologies to the accused(now actual victims) families. And the funny part is, the people that scream rape culture the most are talking about the West, not about India where it's actually got some traction for an argument. Just because it happens there doesn't mean it happens everywhere is something they don't seem to get.

And Rehtae Parsons, isn't that the one that the family went on a vendetta against the accused? And talked about alot of things that were never confirmed by authorities? The one that it wasn't sure about anything that happened until years after the fact? And even then it was just child porn that some guy had had since he was the same age? Stuebenville? The case that was covered up because the jerks were jocks? I'm sure we've never heard that happen with drugs, alcohol, grades, or assault before...Not to mention they were found out pretty quick and thrown in jail. Not exactly the best examples of rape culture out there.

Like I said, go ahead and say that about Thunderfoot, but I honestly have to doubt you've ever watched one of his videos or looked into who he is. Since, I mean, he has a pretty British accent and was schooled in the UK, not the US. Maybe learn to look into things, I mean, maybe you should look into some anti-feminist literature so that you can have better arguments other than "US SCHOOLING SYSTEM, AMIRITE GUYZ". Otherwise you just look like someone copying what somebody else(or some Wiki) says instead of coming to your own conclusions through actual investigation and not just sitting through class and regurgitating what you read in a book.

And guess what? We've got mandatory art classes in the US too. But they don't teach critical thinking really, that's sorta reserved for sciences and English where it's useful, as opposed to art teaching...something else I can't remember the name of right now that involves descriptors and buzz-words instead of arguments. So maybe stop with the Ultra-Nationalism you've got started going too, that's something that Americans and circa 1930 Germans are supposed to have coming out of our orifices. Not the supposedly nicer Canadians.
 

apollogon

New member
Sep 26, 2014
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This thread has been thoroughly derailed.

"Patriarchy affects both men and women negatively, making men into emotionless automatons."
Yeah emotionless automatons just wish they could emote like women. Those poor poor souls.

"Rape culture is simple: blaming the victim"
This is as useful as "the customer is always right." If a white man wears black face in detroit slums, is it not his fault he got wasted? You can't outsource self-preservation.

"India's rape culture"
Look at India's dominate culture/religions. Now look at the middle-east. Now back at India. There's your problem.
 

Haerthan

New member
Mar 16, 2014
434
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Redryhno said:
I gave a list of feminist writings and I told you some of the stuff I personally read by naming authors. But apparently that is ignoring you. So yea that alone invalidates your argument. Besides I don't have time to find all of my crap right now, beyoond making one last post for the day.

"Emotionless automaton" is meant to be a person who shouldnt express their feelings cause its not manly. That is what patriarchy is doing to men, telling them that crying is not manly and shit like that. Just cause you are a private person doesnt refute what I said earlier. Anecdotal evidence has never been accepted in a scientific setting.

"Ah yes, "blaming the victim". A phrase that has lost meaning because people have started using it for silly cases like believing that it happened, but not that the accused did it right off the bat. Just look at the Duke villainization and that Rolling Stone article a few months back for examples. People were skeptical about parts of it and were accused of victim blaming because they didn't believe every single thing that the "victim" said. And guess what? Both cases were found to be exaggerations and outright lies with still no apologies to the accused(now actual victims) families. And the funny part is, the people that scream rape culture the most are talking about the West, not about India where it's actually got some traction for an argument. Just because it happens there doesn't mean it happens everywhere is something they don't seem to get."
is my favorite though.
This stuff is from the UK :
http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/14-signs-we-live-in-a-rape-culture--gk_rqcmxml
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/womens-blog/2014/feb/14/rape-culture-damage-it-does-everyday-sexism
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/10816682/Rape-isnt-really-rape-when-it-happens-at-university.-Is-this-really-the-view-of-certain-students.html
http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/03/examples-of-rape-culture/

I already said that about the US and Canada. It is suffering from exactly the same issues. Europe, a far better educated place than North America (Britain excepted of course) seems to suffer much less from such issues. Rape happens there as well but to a much lesser extent than North America or Britain. Your inability to accept the fact that there are issues where woman are not reporting rapes because of societal pressure is something that I aint bothering to change. Since you yourself seem to engage in it by saying that Parsons' family engaged in a vendetta against the accused, especially when there was clear fucking proof of guilt, a fucking movie dug up by Anonymous. They got off cause the accused were rich, no other reasons. And Steubenville was a great example of it, because it was covered up at first. If the bloody rape culture didnt exist they would have been thrown in prison from the get go not tried to fucking cover it up. And everybody in that fuking town blamed the victims saying that the boy's careers would be ruined. Give me a fucking break, rape is rape. I would have thrown those boys in the deepest pits I could fucking find and throw away the key.

Oh and Thunderfoot is still an idiot, wherever the fuck he is from. And don't worry I got reasons to dislike the Brits as well (attempting to sabotage the EU, thinking themselves so special, calling my people Romanians Gypsies and on and on and on). Also calling me Ultranationalist is a really stupid idea. I am not an ultra-nationalist just because I find flaws in other cultures. Everybody does it. At worst I am only a Romanian nationalist. At best, both Romanian and Canadian. But then again I never drank whatever water the Canadians drank that made them so nice.

I am against false allegation, I have always been. But the Rolling Stones article showed clearly that something was off there. Furthermore just because you bring up two example of exceptions doesnt refute the excessive amount that has been seen in culture. But i will stop here and go to sleep, I got better things to do with my life than attempt to talk to a person unable to understand the finer points of cultural sciences.
 

FalloutJack

Bah weep grah nah neep ninny bom
Nov 20, 2008
15,489
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Being a man means doing what has to be done. Being 'manly' is machismo, macho bullshit, an outdated perception of self that relies on others instead of believing in yourself. Bad way to go.
 

Redryhno

New member
Jul 25, 2011
3,077
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Sorry for the junk train Er.

FalloutJack said:
Being a man means doing what has to be done. Being 'manly' is machismo, macho bullshit, an outdated perception of self that relies on others instead of believing in yourself. Bad way to go.
To be fair, Lucha and some Latin cultures in general rely on others for the masculine/macho to shine through flamboyantly, and mistaking them for being gay is considered an insult to both them and the people that see them that way.