There seems to still be a lingering concept that things guys do need to be "manly" or "not girly"

Eclipse Dragon

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erttheking said:
But I keep seeing people talking about "manly tears" and how "It's ok if a guy cries if it's manly tears" because apparently a man is less of a person if he cries regular pussy tears.
I know what you're speaking of, but I never looked at "manly tears" as anything serious. I always saw it as a joke. Satire on the idea that men can't cry and laughing about the insecurity. The joke being that tears are tears, there's no such thing as "manly tears", but this character thinks he's so macho that he doesn't understand that.

There is of course, a stigma that men shouldn't cry and so a lot don't feel like they should, with the exception of very sad moments (like the death of a loved one), but I've never once seen or heard this referred to as "manly tears" with any degree of seriousness.


Pr0 said:
Duress being, if I go...hey, fix your own fucking sandwich...hey, clean up your own fucking garbage, hey, do your own fucking laundry, she'll just go get the dreaded "I'm leaving" suitcase out of the closet, call her parents, beg them for a plane ticket (because apparently a fucking lawyer can't afford their own air fare these days) and she'll leave and I'm likely to have wasted every thing I put into this girl, which was every dollar I've saved in the last ten years...simply to try to have a happy life with her.
I'm sorry that you're in a bad relationship, if I may offer you some advice, from a women by the way. From the way you're talking about your relationships, it sounds like you're trying to buy her affection saying things like "I will have wasted all the money I put into this girl" like throw enough money at her and all of a sudden everything will be right. If that's the way you go into all your relationships, no wonder you're attracting women who aren't interested in working.

If you're honestly looking for a women who will be your financial partner, your equal through thick and thin, a person you can spend your life with, stop thinking about them and start treating yourself better. If she pulls out the suitcase because you decided not to kneel to her every beck and call, let her go. She's not right for you. Don't stay in a relationship that makes you miserable, find somebody else. If you really want to be sure, try finding a lady who's okay with splitting the bill when you go out to eat, trust me, there are many like that who exist (I personally really don't like it when a guy offers to pay).
 

Erttheking

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DementedSheep said:
A failing? Tell me, what else is a failing? Is having ADD a failing? Is being autistic a failing? Is being OCD a failing? You seem to have a rather unfounded view on mental disorders, viewing them as simply being the way people feel instead of being, you know, people's brains working fundamentally differently. Which is what happens.

So basically you're saying people should be fair weather friends because of the possibility that the friend will be a fair weather friend to them in the future. In short, dick people before they can even think about dicking you. And I've had a good friend stick by me for 8 years. It's pretty common to see friends stick together for that long, I'm not sure why it sounds like such an alien concept to you. Wait, that's a lie, you explained why it was, you leave your friends the second they need your help. And it's not an obligation, it's doing a nice thing because it's a nice thing to do. Not sure why that's so alien to you.

So in short, they should keep their mouths shut because the other people might feel a fraction of the pain that they do and they should just keep it to themselves and get over it? Not following. You know, for all your talk about how depression is a failing, you also act like people are so emotionally fragile that worrying about other people is something forced on them that they can't handle. Really you're trying to have it both ways.

But by your own logic, if they feel guilt isn't that a failing on their part?

No, it isn't. And I seriously doubt that you're so busy in life that you couldn't take half an hour out of your day to comfort someone. It hardly sounds like the Herculean task you make it out to be.
 

Lightknight

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Yep, we as a society are both biologically and socially programmed to hold onto certain beliefs.

Some of these are extremely beneficial to us as a species. "Manning Up" is absolutely one of those beneficial beliefs that have gotten us through some incredibly hard times as a species.

This might not be as vital as it once was, but it still has its potential benefits.

I guess the biggest question is why you or anyone else would want to squash it? Why is it important to some people that boys not be encouraged to toughen up?

I'd say the manner in which people ridicule people to toughen up is a problem, but that doesn't make the value of being manly any less.

Please keep in mind, most of the time when someone talks about manliness in contrast to "girliness" they aren't talking about positive female qualities. They're talking about things like emotional instability or fragility. These are things that everyone should seek to avoid. That they are automatically associated with feminine behaviors is what's a shame. While women do score lower on emotional stability it is a harmful stereotype to perpetuate since some women may not fit that stereotype.
 

inmunitas

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Haerthan said:
I am of the opinion that the victim should be listened to, not the perpetrator.
You should be listening to both sides, both the victim and perpetrator. Not favouring one over the other, that's going backwards to how things used to be done with religious lead trials.
 

Redryhno

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Haerthan said:
Redryhno said:
Sorry for the junk train Er.
We are not done. The post I have in my "quoted" list is not what is here, so don't hide behind the edits like a coward.
Not hiding behind anything buddy, just decided that since you said you were done, I was done as well and edited it out so this exact scenario wouldn't happen. And guess what? I am still done and I'm not gonna keep talking to someone as hostile as you are on this subject, for my sanity as well as yours by the looks of it.

So, in closing, we're done conversing, you wanna keep talking go right on ahead, but I'm not responding. I'm now going to go take a nap because I just got off work and I'm exhausted for some reason. Maybe I'm coming down with something.

Again, sorry for the walls o' text Er.
 

Vlado

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Masculine traits are more likely to attract the opposite sex - they are the more rational behaviour, strictly biologically speaking. That said, I believe in people doing what they want, not what society, their friends, or whoever else dictates. One should be free to choose a path, and also change it if at some point he changes his mind.
 

Haerthan

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Redryhno said:
Haerthan said:
Redryhno said:
Sorry for the junk train Er.
We are not done. The post I have in my "quoted" list is not what is here, so don't hide behind the edits like a coward.
Not hiding behind anything buddy, just decided that since you said you were done, I was done as well and edited it out so this exact scenario wouldn't happen. And guess what? I am still done and I'm not gonna keep talking to someone as hostile as you are on this subject, for my sanity as well as yours by the looks of it.

So, in closing, we're done conversing, you wanna keep talking go right on ahead, but I'm not responding. I'm now going to go take a nap because I just got off work and I'm exhausted for some reason. Maybe I'm coming down with something.

Again, sorry for the walls o' text Er.
Have a nice nap buddy. We've all been there.
 

Haerthan

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inmunitas said:
Haerthan said:
I am of the opinion that the victim should be listened to, not the perpetrator.
You should be listening to both sides, both the victim and perpetrator. Not favouring one over the other, that's going backwards to how things used to be done with religious lead trials.
I am going to listen to the victim more readily than the perpetrator because it is on the victim to prove the accusations they have made.
 

freaper

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Baffle said:
I occasionally thump my chest to asset my manliness, but when I do it sounds hollow. Could someone tell me if I have a medical condition?
When I hit myself on the chest I grow 12mm of chest hair in the shape of Barry White. My doctor is stumped.
 

apollogon

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Haerthan said:
inmunitas said:
Haerthan said:
I am of the opinion that the victim should be listened to, not the perpetrator.
You should be listening to both sides, both the victim and perpetrator. Not favouring one over the other, that's going backwards to how things used to be done with religious lead trials.
I am going to listen to the victim more readily than the perpetrator because it is on the victim to prove the accusations they have made.
The only thing that matters is evidence. There's good reasons why people emphasize that justice should be blind.

Innocent until proven guilty is more important than even democracy.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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After the arduous task of reading through this entire thread I feel a few things on the subject. One of those things is a new found understanding and appreciation for being TG, and least part of what made me that way.

This whole manly/not girly thing regarding men and boys does strike me as interesting. Because of how I am, I tend to be a bit of the outsider on both points, which I've found has given me a little insight on somethings. One of which has been heavily argued here and it's one thing that irritates the hell out of me.

The "because I'm a girl/woman, the boy/man has to go with out" idea. This is something that not only does the media teach children, but it's also something that parents teach too. It's ingrained from a young age on both sexes. I cannot count the number of times I've seen siblings usually a brother and a sister in a situation like this: Both children want something, girl gets what she wants weather, or not she's the younger sibling. Boy gets told that he's not getting what he wants. Even if what he wants is less than half the price. For example boy wants action figure, girl wants doll, both got one each of their respective toys last time they went to the store. Boy gets flimsy excuse "you just got an action figure last time." While at the same time the girl gets her doll. This is far, far amplified when it's a boy with multiple sisters. Though in fairness it's justified to an extent when a girl has multiple brothers, because more resources have to be poured in to the boys compared to the lone girl.

What I've seen this sort of thing leading to is super entitled women, and the majority of women I know are like this. They won't lift a finger around the house and pump their men for all the money they can, even if they have jobs of their own. I saw it working with women at a various jobs, on most occasions. These women then go and spend all of the money they make, on themselves, contributing nothing to the mutual well being of both parties in the relationship. Not all women are like this, still it seems that women who do contribute are the exception, not the rule. But it's the symptom of something that children are taught. Girl/Woman gets whatever she wants, boy/man gets deprived and has to just "suck it up." Now I'm going to qualify this again not all women are like that, but I see more that do this, than don't.

The other part of this which really saddens me is that most women I know and have known, somehow find the concept of a man having needs other than sex totally alien. For some reason they can't fathom why a man might need to have financial security, or a total lack of understanding that men have emotional needs, or that men have dreams. They just see themselves and the sad part is, that in large part, this is what we teach our children.

Men are just as guilty on these notes too. Men I know can rarely function if presented with an emotional issue regarding another man. It's a rare guy who can not only show his emotions to other men, but be comfortable with his male peers sharing theirs back. Most of the time if a guy shows emotion his male buddies tell him to get off his period, be a man, stop being gay, or something along those lines. Part of this comes from the fact that there really aren't ways in which older men can mentor younger men anymore. Thus creating actual men, rather than posturing boys acting macho. Part of this is the fault of feminism, because some feminists made it their life goal to destroy those male support structures, while excluding men from the female ones. Now when I say destroy, it's been women forcing them selves into these male support areas. Which has effectively left men with no support mechanisms among their peers. Men have started to find ways to take this back, but a lot of women still try to deny men that.

While there is a lot of inequality on both sides, especially within the parties calling for equality, it's not either sides fault entirely. Both sides share the blame in this macho "manly" culture among men.
 

Inglorious891

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Haerthan said:
Congratulations. YOu just took what I said and completely misunderstood it. Never thought I would actually see that. There is a ton of things that feminists dont agree between each other. However at the core of it all there is the idea that EQUALITY BETWEEN SEXES is the objective. Radicals such as TERFS (Trans-exclusionary radical feminists) and SWERFS (Sex-Work Exclusionary Radical Feminists) are just some of them. True feminists actively shun those bigots.
Yes, feminists believe in equality of the sexes. How that is reached is completely up for debate and with the wildly different and sometimes opposing views that feminists have means that the means to that goal isn't clear. Not a bad thing as it (in theory anyway) invites more discusison, but to imply that all feminists have a clear-cut beginning to end goal is silly.

Haerthan said:
True feminists actively shun those bigots.
There's that phrase again. "True" feminists can shun or not shun whatever they want; just because they don't agree with your opinion on what deserves shunning and what doesn't isn't an indicator on whether or not they're "true" feminists.

Haerthan said:
Feminism has always been about equality. Hell feminists fight against patriarchy because it also makes out of men emotionally stunted people. But hey keep spouting that stupid strawman that feminists told MRAs to shut up. Might want to back that shit up with sources.

Captcha: how interesting. THat is how I find your lack of sources.
My definition of "feminism" is based on the dictionary. Humanism/Egalitarianism is equality for all, while feminism is soley for women. And no, there's not a thing with wrong with only fighting for the rights of women.
 

NiPah

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There's a lot of lingering concepts festering in Youtube comments that are best left untouched.
That being said your interpretation of some stupid jokes is extremely antagonistic, shows really are marketed towards certain demographics, there really are certain tropes and characteristics of shows targeting said demographics, and calling people insecure and creepy for saying one show isn't just for the original perceived target demographic is in quite poor taste.

Maybe they should have said "and they say this show is justfor little girls", but unless they actually believed girls should not like like MLP due to isn't DBZ styled action scenes then they are hardly insecure and creepy.
 

Yuuki

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EbonBehelit said:
DementedSheep said:
Honesty? You should deal with depression on your own otherwise it's not enough that you can't handle your own emotions you don't even have enough pride to keep that to yourself and you have to burden others with it.
This way of thinking is extremely dangerous. That it's a part of the 'masculine ideal' is what makes men far more likely to commit suicide than women.
Isn't that just Darwinism at work though?

Men being masculine and women being feminine is one of the key reasons reason our race has made it this far.
 

Haerthan

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Inglorious891 said:
Haerthan said:
Congratulations. YOu just took what I said and completely misunderstood it. Never thought I would actually see that. There is a ton of things that feminists dont agree between each other. However at the core of it all there is the idea that EQUALITY BETWEEN SEXES is the objective. Radicals such as TERFS (Trans-exclusionary radical feminists) and SWERFS (Sex-Work Exclusionary Radical Feminists) are just some of them. True feminists actively shun those bigots.
Yes, feminists believe in equality of the sexes. How that is reached is completely up for debate and with the wildly different and sometimes opposing views that feminists have means that the means to that goal isn't clear. Not a bad thing as it (in theory anyway) invites more discusison, but to imply that all feminists have a clear-cut beginning to end goal is silly.

Haerthan said:
True feminists actively shun those bigots.
There's that phrase again. "True" feminists can shun or not shun whatever they want; just because they don't agree with your opinion on what deserves shunning and what doesn't isn't an indicator on whether or not they're "true" feminists.

Haerthan said:
Feminism has always been about equality. Hell feminists fight against patriarchy because it also makes out of men emotionally stunted people. But hey keep spouting that stupid strawman that feminists told MRAs to shut up. Might want to back that shit up with sources.

Captcha: how interesting. THat is how I find your lack of sources.
My definition of "feminism" is based on the dictionary. Humanism/Egalitarianism is equality for all, while feminism is soley for women. And no, there's not a thing with wrong with only fighting for the rights of women.
Than how in all seven hells can you say that feminism is against equality of sexes? Yes there are many ways to get there, some good some bad. The bad ones, like TERFS and SWERFs arent even considered feminists anymore because they are actively hostile to the 3rd wave of feminism. And the rest of the radicals don't espouse equality, they espouse matriarchy and in some cases , like Valerie Solanas, the complete subjugation of men. Last I checked feminism was never for that.

Second, you do not understand what I mean by true feminists. What I am saying is that the objective of all actual feminists is equality for sexes. That is what a true feminist is. How you get there is different and not all feminists agree. There is no fucking hive mind where the feminists are all in complete agreement with each other. Never has been never will be. Hell early second wave feminism was divided by race and freaking class, but they were still feminists.

Take Alice Schwarzer for example: she is against the legalization of prostitution in Germany, favouring a law like in Sweden where the sale is legal, but not its purchase. Me personally I am for the legalization and regulation of it, removing it from the criminal element.

If you really want to know what feminism is take this list and start reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_feminist_literature#20th_century (suggest Simone de Beauvoir, Judith Butler, Betty Friedan to start off)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMMA_(magazine)

Oh and I don't know what dictionaries you are looking at buddy but the Merriam Webster one goes like this
feminism
noun fem·i·nism \ˈfe-mə-ˌni-zəm\
: the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities

: organized activity in support of women's rights and interests
Oxford Dictionary says this:
Definition of feminism in English:
noun

[MASS NOUN]
The advocacy of women?s rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.
Romanian dictionaries state something along these lines (The DEX- again the most authoritative dictionary in Romanian):
FEMINÍSM s. n. Mișcare socială care susține egalitatea în drepturi a femeii cu bărbatul în toate sferele de activitate. ? Din fr. féminisme, rus. feminizm.
Translation: "A social movement that works for equal rights for women in conjunction with men in all spheres of activity- From French feminisme, Russian feminizm.

The fuckmothering Duden (German authoritative text on the German language no fucking biggie) :
Bedeutungen
Richtung der Frauenbewegung, die, von den Bedürfnissen der Frau ausgehend, eine grundlegende Veränderung der gesellschaftlichen Normen (z. B. der traditionellen Rollenverteilung) und der patriarchalischen Kultur anstrebt
(Medizin, Zoologie) das Vorhandensein oder die Ausbildung weiblicher Geschlechtsmerkmale beim Mann oder bei einem männlichen Tier; Verweiblichung
Translation: "without Plural, Direction of the women's liberation movement, outgoing from the needs of women, strives for a fundamental change in societal norms (for example the traditional roles) and in the patriarchal culture. (medicine, zoology) the presence or the build up of female sexual markers in a man or a male animal; feminization"

NOW in 3 fucking languages I just showed you what feminism is. ANd in two of them the amount of gendered language is hugely problematic (German and Romanian, English to a much lesser extent). Take it from a translator and a linguist. So yea I am going to trust the dictionary that has been made by people that have worked in the field (the Duden and the DEX and the fucking Oxford dictionary are made by linguists). Not some urban dictionary BS.

Only in America do you see people bring up the whole "egalitarian, not a feminist" because they are all either a bunch of ignorant jackasses, either too stupid to be able to discern the right course of action in their own interests, or brainwashed to not be able to think for themselves.

Furthermore I keep telling you to back your shit up with sources but you don't so I really don't see the whole point of arguing with you. I backed up my shit (the links and the translations from 2 languages, I am a multilingual person). Hell I even gave you a list with feminist literature and pointed you to some pretty good authors (as much as I hate Wikipedia, their lists are pretty well curated) and a modern German magazine. But hey keep making that strawman that feminists fight for inequality (pffft hahahahahahahhahahahahahaahahahahaha
hahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahaha) and show your true colours.

Next thing I know you'll start on how rape culture doesnt exist and shit like that. So again don't talk about shit that you clearly have no idea, get educated, read some academic texts, not everything on the Internet is true. As much as you would like that to be true.

Note to self: translate the magazine for training. associate membership examination is in a month.
 

Ramzal

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People are people and however they choose to react to what's around them is up to them and is completely fine with me. If a guy wants to be as manly as possible that's fine.

HOWEVER

I draw a line when it comes to people complaining about fictional characters not being "MANLY" enough. In Star Ocean: The last hope the main character Edge inadvertently blows up an alternate earth killing roughly 6 billion people and every single form of life on that planet. He is devastated by this fact and someone I knew had got angry because Edge "acted like a little ***** about it."

I just heard white noise from everything he said after that point.
 

inmunitas

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Haerthan said:
Only in America do you see people bring up the whole "egalitarian, not a feminist" because they are all either a bunch of ignorant jackasses, either too stupid to be able to discern the right course of action in their own interests, or brainwashed to not be able to think for themselves.
Which? The American feminists? Or the American egalitarians?
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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Pr0 said:
Phasmal said:
Once again, I am genuinely sorry that you are miserable.
I'm not trying to convince you that women are perfect. Just that they're people, and are all different.
Would you tell a female rape victim the same thing? #notallmen...arerapists? Would she believe you?

I believe my life experience with women has been something like reverse rape. Just instead of having my life threatened and my body used against my will, I have my entire livelyhood threatened and all my financial and personal resources used under duress.

Duress being, if I go...hey, fix your own fucking sandwich...hey, clean up your own fucking garbage, hey, do your own fucking laundry, she'll just go get the dreaded "I'm leaving" suitcase out of the closet, call her parents, beg them for a plane ticket (because apparently a fucking lawyer can't afford their own air fare these days) and she'll leave and I'm likely to have wasted every thing I put into this girl, which was every dollar I've saved in the last ten years...simply to try to have a happy life with her.

And yeah its a bad relationship and I get that not all relationships are bad but all of mine have been horrible and this ones literally emasculated me down to being a housewife and I never once even required that of my fiancee once it was apparent she had no fundamental skills associated with it in the first place.

I expected us to be intellectual equals, working together as a partnership, but what she expects is me to do whatever it takes to ensure she can treat her professional salary like its a fucking allowance. Up to and including whoring myself at McDonalds..simply to ensure that I, as the man, am taking care of all the financial responsibilities.

Its reverse rape. We had sex con-sensually and from there on out, shes gotten to use everything about me that can make her life better.....with no regard for the mental, emotional and financial costs to me.

And don't even get me started about trying to have an "honest" conversation with her about how shes making me feel. I've been there.....its not pretty. The one time we had that discussion...the suitcase came out...and I was told what an asshole I was for bringing up the fact that she'd drained my entire savings...and if we were to break it off, a "real man" would simply tell her goodbye and that we'd had a nice life together.

Apparently that only happens with real men that still have 90 grand in the bank and won't end up living at the fucking YMCA because they cared enough about a woman to give her absolutely everything they had.
YIKES. I have survived being violently raped, as well as being attacked by multiple men, no not all men are rapist. Counseling might help, honestly, it seems like you may not be ready for a relationship until after you have come to terms with issues that have affected and are affecting your life. Viewing relationships in such ways is not healthy, and it does not sound as though your relationships are healthy. This is definitely not how one should enter into a long term commitment, and is asking for suffering and grief by both those involved to go into a relationship with this mindset.

This is not a joke, and completely serious, I honestly think counseling would help you come to terms with this, as if this is any way an accurate description of your actual relationship, it sounds completely toxic and you would be better off long term seeking counseling now instead of being mandated by law later once one of you has harmed one another. Your view of women and your relationship is toxic, and if what you are stating is any way accurate your choice of partners is toxic as well.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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Ryan Hughes said:
Pr0 said:
This is being a man apparently. Man having a fucking penis is AWESOME. I'm no MRA, but seriously, this shit sucks.
Right. And what concrete action can we take as a society to help with that? None. There is a serious problem with much of what has been said here, as it stems from either isolated personal experience or condescending generalization. Look, I am sorry about all that, but there is no law that I can help pass to clear up your relationship. However, there is a clear need for greater wage equality legislation, for stricter punishments for social institutions that cover up rape and sexual assault, greater law-enforcement presence in responding to online harassment, etc. All of which benefit men almost as much as women, as institutions like Penn State covered up the systematic assault of boys, etc.

BTW, women's desire for expensive diamond rings is a social invention. Invented by men. Harry Oppenheimer and Gerold M. Lauck to be precise, so if anyone, blame them. After WWII most women found diamonds to be unnecessary at best, and gaudy and self-indulgent at worst. Oppenheimer and Ayer changed that intentionally: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1982/02/have-you-ever-tried-to-sell-a-diamond/304575/
Yes, in the BBC documentary the "century of self" it goes into great detail how they convinced everyone they "needed" diamonds, along with just about everything else.

http://freedocumentaries.org/documentary/bbc-the-century-of-the-self-happiness-machines-season-1-episode-1