This scare the shit out of anyone else?

jboking

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Tdc2182 said:
ShakyFiend said:
And this is happening all over the US, people are actively celebrating killing a guy? Does that not seem a bit medieval to anyone else? When people turn out in their thousands to celebrate something like this it justs worries me like hell.
Tell me what's wrong about this exactly?

This has been the complaint I've heard from lots of people over the internet, yet no one has really been able to validate why it's wrong.

Are we suppose to be sad he's dead? Is there suppose to be any emotion other than relief that he is dead?

People were cheering in the streets when each country was brought down and then again when Hitler died.

Are we cheering about the Mass Murder of a thousand civilians? No.

He's a dick that caused a lot of stress for a Country that was arguably impenetrable at the time. We could be doing a lot worse than cheering.
I've been giving it a lot of thought over the course of the day. In that thought, my opinion on the subject has changed. I now believe that your response to this celebrating depends solely on what you value. If you, like many Americans, value the sanctity of life, then there should be a clear response for you. You should be glad that he will no longer hurt anyone, but you should not celebrate that he had to die for that to happen.

I see many people in my town celebrating and essentially saying, "We got him, we finally got him!" It seems to be an American pride parade rather than a celebration of the relief and closure that this justice brings to them. History has shown that that kind of nationalism is dangerous. As such, this isn't something I can really get behind.

That's where I stand, anyway.
 

rmb1983

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Mar 29, 2011
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SenseOfTumour said:
Sadly the Sun reported it as 'HA HA WE DUN PUT HIM IN A BAG N KICKED HIM INTO DA SEA', which is obviously very sensible and not all inflammatory.
Hate to snip such a smart post, but that made me chuckle.
 

health-bar

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No, i am not disturbed by this. Everyone has a right to celebrate.
the number one figure of international terrorism is dead. The world should be partying.

I'm pretty sure Pakistan allowed us to actively search for him so this op is completely legal.If they didn't, who cares? they knowingly harbored him for years. They can suck it up.
 

B-Rye

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Being American and as such expected to out and about celebrating the death of the bin Laden, I am not celebrating. Don't get me wrong, the guy deserved it. If you are someone who kills 3,000 (give or take) people simply because you believe they are infidels and don't observe your customs, then you are going to be put down like a rabid dog.

However, let's look at how much has changed. Security at transport hubs and USA population centers is higher than ever (to protect from retaliation). No doubt it is the same in other countries. The USA is still occupying two nations (likely to add a third to that) fighting a war that it won't win simply because we are just an occupying force. Innocent men, women, and children are still dying needlessly. You get my point.

Killing bin Laden was inevitable and he deserved it, but it won't bring back the thousands of people who have been killed by his order, and I'm not just talking about Americans. I'm refering to all people regardless of race, creed, religion, who have been victimized by that man and his terrorist organization.

Did I feel a bit of relief when I heard the news? Yes. Did it last long? Hell no. As far as I can tell, the world is still the same, just minus one murderer.

I count my blessings and assess my life as I continue to take care of business. There is no real reason to celebrate. All that remains for the rest of us humans is to brace for the next event that contributes to the world falling apart more.

It sickens me that my fellow countrymen celebrate killing someone like they currently are. I am at a loss as to how to describe the anger and pity I feel for people who take celebratory joy in killing anyone.

All this rhetoric about him not being a bastard or whatever, by all means believe in that idea if you want. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. However in this case, it does not detract from the fact that he killed countless innocents (not just those who died in 9/11, not just Americans, but anyone who he saw as a threat to his cause).

If you have to celebrate, celebrate a victory against what that man stood for. Someone in an earlier post mentioned it, our ancestors did not celebrate solely the death of Hitler, but the fall of what the Axis powers stood for.
 

vid87

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I can absolutely understand the need for celebration for such a victory and an end to 10 years of anxiety (as far as searching for him at least). What I find personally disturbing is how far the celebrating goes: singing "Na na hey hey Goodbye", and crass jokes being tossed around on t-shirts and TV (I watch Dancing With the Stars and hearing Tom Bergeron, whom I like to think is a nice guy, act a bit like an asshole really surprised me, as well as Whoopi on The View saying he's "muerte" like she was doing stand-up was creepy.)

At some point, a little tact would be nice instead of carrying on not unlike the extremists did when the towers fell.
 

Kiju

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jhlip said:
believer258 said:
I heard that he hid behind one of his wives as he was shot. It's hard not to hate such a man, a coward who would ask others to commit suicide for his cause. Is it right to celebrate his death? No. But neither were the bastard's actions in life. This man got what was coming to him, and the celebrating afterward is more humiliation of a man that deserves it, whether it was right of us to dish it out or not.

Medieval? Yes, a bit. But it appears we haven't evolved our base instincts much over time, especially the one that controls our thirst for vengeance. I can't say I blame the Americans that did this, and frankly that's one less evil bastard in the world to deal with.
And that is where the thread should end before this turns into an America debate again.
I think it's more a question of philosophical debate on morals and principles.
 

Helscreama

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Zekksta said:
Helscreama said:
Zekksta said:
EllEzDee said:
He was a "towel head", who cares about him? America has its independence back or whatever the fuck it is they're celebrating. Woo, freedom!
Exactly, the fact that this outlandish man has been killed totally justifies the war that ravaged a country to find him, leaving said country economically and physically fucked for decades.

But YEAH, freedom and shit.



I don't agree with what this guy has said but what doesn't get said very often is we aren't just blow shit up.

Schools and infrastructure are also getting built while the fight continues. Some countries have deployed engineers along with combat troops to help set the Afghans up so they are able to get their country running again.

I'm aware of what is happening, however acting like finding Osama Bin Laden justifies the war is just ridiculous, and saying shit like "WE GOT HIM, LET'S PARTY" is doing just that.

Americas invasion destroyed more shit than Osama Bin Laden did.

Nothing can ever justify war it's a terrible thing but I'm not going to hold it against the american's if they want to celebrate. The man claimed to have organised the 9/11 bombings, let them cheer.
 

MrDeano89

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In all honesty. I saw the terrorist world cheer with delight as those towers fell and while I may not be American I am certainly part of the so called "western world". Now i know that the twin towers have over shadowed other atrocities across the globe but being British I too have seen shit like this in my country caused by that monster and his terrorist group and as far as I'm concerned a simple head shot is very VERY humane from our point of view. Personally a full on celebration is due and I do not for one second fell bad that that monster is dead
 

Dash-X

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To those who can't seem to fathom why a person wouldn't be jubilant; I ask you to think about this:

What has bin Laden done to you personally? Unless you're one of the unfortunate individuals who lost someone dear to you that black day, you're probably not gonna have an answer for that question. Notice, I didn't ask what he has done to your country, I ask what he has done to you. You are no more your country than you are the car you drive. And while he'd probably kill you on the spot were you to meet, it probably wouldn't be anything personal.

It's easy for us to throw the "E" word around (evil), but at the heart of it he was just a dude doing what he believed. What he believed was in direct conflict with us. He made us the enemy just as we made him the enemy.

We call it an atrocity because we were on the business end of it. We call it a malicious act, and while there may have been some malice, the human toll was probably the last thing on bin Laden's mind. If it weren't, he'd have chosen better targets and a different venue of attack. Or at the very least, a different time to initiate the attack.

He chose to attack two symbols to serve as a kind of propaganda after the fact. This next statement isn't gonna be popular at all, but it was smart. He was facing a superior enemy. That he was able to do so much damage to a superior opponent on a metaphorical shoestring was (and believe me, I don't like to use this word) remarkable. It wasn't just a blow to infrastructure, it was a blow to morale. Also, anti-American sympathizers in other parts of the world could look at what happened and conclude that we aren't so tough.

Some people like to throw the "J" word around (justice). The concept of justice is out-dated, and its application quite fickle. Imagine a man walking down the street kicking everyone in the butt -- only to get mad when someone kicks him back. So long as you're kicking people in the butt, you have no right to outrage when someone kicks back. The truth of the matter is that there is no justice. What we call justice is really a bunch of old fools scrambling to front and collect eyes. What we were outraged about was just another turn in an ages-old, effed-up game. What people are celebrating is also just another turn in that game.

So, why not celebrate? Simple. Basic human empathy. A couple of twists in rhetoric could turn me or even any one of you into a terrorist one day. Irrational? You betcha -- but when has irrationality stopped anyone?
 

Vredesbyrd67

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Because of his synonymous association with the attacks on 9/11, it's easy to think of him as a figurehead for ignorant militant extremism rather than as an intelligent, charismatic, passionate human being (deny it all you want- he had to be these things to accomplish what he accomplished).

While I do think that solely the death of a man is the wrong reason to celebrate anything (astronomers have predicted of the several hundred billion stars and planets in our galaxy alone, between 2 and 20,000 technologically advanced civilizations likely exist, if any, making intelligent life perhaps the rarest phenomena in existence [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation]), Osama Bin Laden wasn't a sheep herder or a used car salesman, nor a peaceful Imam or a musician; he was a man who believed that a large percentage of human beings deserved to die painfully because their beliefs were not in-line with his own very strict ones. Even by his own religious dogma, his reasons for being a genocidal murderer don't add up. I don't know enough about the man to diagnose him with any type of pathology, but he was almost assuredly insane.

Worse than this, he had influence over equally unstable people with guns and bombs and had very fervent protectors. He was a man who could not be convinced, could not be resuscitated, could not even be captured, and yet caused billions of dollars in damage to the world economy (causing millions of already-poor people to lose their jobs), not to mention the lives of hundreds of thousands more. HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS. Do you remember that huge Uruk-Hai army in "The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers?" That was a tenth of the amount of human beings Osama Bin Laden has indirectly killed.

Get it straight, guys: I'm not celebrating the death of a human being. I'm celebrating the fact that that monster can no longer harm innocent people, despite my lament that the only way we had a chance to make it happen was to take desperate measures.
 

commodore96

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If you have time and want to understand why people were so stoked that we got this fucker watch all the parts of this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q_Jt6g-4fY

You will get why we don't like him so much
 

B-Rye

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The
Zekksta said:
Helscreama said:
Zekksta said:
EllEzDee said:
He was a "towel head", who cares about him? America has its independence back or whatever the fuck it is they're celebrating. Woo, freedom!
Exactly, the fact that this outlandish man has been killed totally justifies the war that ravaged a country to find him, leaving said country economically and physically fucked for decades.

But YEAH, freedom and shit.



I don't agree with what this guy has said but what doesn't get said very often is we aren't just blow shit up.

Schools and infrastructure are also getting built while the fight continues. Some countries have deployed engineers along with combat troops to help set the Afghans up so they are able to get their country running again.
I'm aware of what is happening, however acting like finding Osama Bin Laden justifies the war is just ridiculous, and saying shit like "WE GOT HIM, LET'S PARTY" is doing just that.

Americas invasion destroyed more shit than Osama Bin Laden did.
Your last point here may be true, but that statement is flawed. It assumes that you know for certain what would have happened if the UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT did not take action against him. It assumes that the world that would have resulted from no retaliation would have been a better one. Perhaps it would have been, perhaps it would have been worse.

I understand your anger with what the US government has done since 9/11. Iraq was a mistake, I will not contest this. Machiavellian philosophy (which is mirrored by many terrorist groups) states that it is better to be feared than loved. I don't know if more attacks would have occured if the US government did nothing in response to 9/11, know one will. All I know is that Osama Bin Laden was one of many catalysts for making the world what it is today.
 

Lonan

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The Incredible Bulk said:
ShakyFiend said:
So, Osama, Ok death of a international hate figure aside etc etc if anyone deserved it he did and so on, thats not what worries me. (although isnt it a bit odd how the US can stroll into a country and execute who they like?)

The troubling thing is this
and
and to be honest, this [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/editors_note/8844-Editors-Note-Better-Than-Before] as well which is what prompted this thread.

And this is happening all over the US, people are actively celebrating killing a guy? Does that not seem a bit medieval to anyone else? When people turn out in their thousands to celebrate something like this it justs worries me like hell.

Anyone else? Or are you all patriotic Americans and whatnot?
The damn terrorists celebrated when the towers went down. Why the FUCK should we not do the same when their leader is killed? Eye for an eye. Fire with fire.
Because Americans, who make up the most powerful country on earth, are acting like terrorists when blood has been drawn. That's why some people, presumably the OP as well, are scared. Also, some Americans are probably scared that people in their own country are behaving like terrorists after a kill, because of proximity to these people.
 

Dash-X

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Lonan said:
The Incredible Bulk said:
ShakyFiend said:
So, Osama, Ok death of a international hate figure aside etc etc if anyone deserved it he did and so on, thats not what worries me. (although isnt it a bit odd how the US can stroll into a country and execute who they like?)

The troubling thing is this
and
and to be honest, this [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/editors_note/8844-Editors-Note-Better-Than-Before] as well which is what prompted this thread.

And this is happening all over the US, people are actively celebrating killing a guy? Does that not seem a bit medieval to anyone else? When people turn out in their thousands to celebrate something like this it justs worries me like hell.

Anyone else? Or are you all patriotic Americans and whatnot?
The damn terrorists celebrated when the towers went down. Why the FUCK should we not do the same when their leader is killed? Eye for an eye. Fire with fire.
Because Americans, who make up the most powerful country on earth, are acting like terrorists when blood has been drawn. That's why some people, presumably the OP as well, are scared. Also, some Americans are probably scared that people in their own country are behaving like terrorists after a kill, because of proximity to these people.
This is the most succinct, and well-considered answer to the question I've seen thus far.
 

B-Rye

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Zekksta said:
B-Rye said:
The
Zekksta said:
Helscreama said:
Zekksta said:
EllEzDee said:
He was a "towel head", who cares about him? America has its independence back or whatever the fuck it is they're celebrating. Woo, freedom!
Exactly, the fact that this outlandish man has been killed totally justifies the war that ravaged a country to find him, leaving said country economically and physically fucked for decades.

But YEAH, freedom and shit.



I don't agree with what this guy has said but what doesn't get said very often is we aren't just blow shit up.

Schools and infrastructure are also getting built while the fight continues. Some countries have deployed engineers along with combat troops to help set the Afghans up so they are able to get their country running again.
I'm aware of what is happening, however acting like finding Osama Bin Laden justifies the war is just ridiculous, and saying shit like "WE GOT HIM, LET'S PARTY" is doing just that.

Americas invasion destroyed more shit than Osama Bin Laden did.
Your last point here may be true, but that statement is flawed. It assumes that you know for certain what would have happened if the UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT did not take action against him. It assumes that the world that would have resulted from no retaliation would have been a better one. Perhaps it would have been, perhaps it would have been worse.

I understand your anger with what the US government has done since 9/11. Iraq was a mistake, I will not contest this. Machiavellian philosophy (which is mirrored by many terrorist groups) states that it is better to be feared than loved. I don't know if more attacks would have occured if the US government did nothing in response to 9/11, know one will. All I know is that Osama Bin Laden was one of many catalysts for making the world what it is today.
I'm not angry, I'm actually extremely pro-anti terrorism measures, even the clandestine shit. I think murdering Osama Bin Laden was the 90% right choice, I would have preferred he be captured alive and Sentenced to death, just for the whole *justice* thing and shit, but either way I'm glad he's dead.

I'm just seeing an awful lot of people using his death as a justification for the war, and I believe that's wrong. That is the ONLY thing I'm taking issue with, considering how his death will never make the invasion right.

Also, I don't need to speculate what would have happened if they didn't invade, that's irrelevant. Fact is, they did invade, so if we're going to discuss it at all, we shouldn't speculate what might have happened, we should focus on what DID happen.
I'm with you on that. Studying criminal justice. A trial would have been the best for this man.
 

Khada

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Jan 8, 2009
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On May 1, 2011 Pres. Barack Obama appeared on national television with the spontaneous announcement that Osama bin Laden, the purported organizer of the tragic events of September 11th 2001, was killed by military forces in Pakistan.

Within moments, a media blitz ran across virtually all television networks in what could only be described as a grotesque celebratory display, reflective of a level of emotional immaturity that borders on cultural psychosis. Depictions of people running through the streets of New York and Washington chanting jingoistic American slogans, waving their flags like the members of some cult, praising the death of another human being, reveals yet another layer of this sickness we call modern society.

It is not the scope of this response to address the political usage of such an event or to illuminate the staged orchestration of how public perception was to be controlled by the mainstream media and the United States Government. Rather the point of this article is to express the gross irrationality apparent and how our culture becomes so easily fixed and emotionally charged with respect to surface symbology, rather than true root problems, solutions or rational considerations of circumstance.

The first and most obvious point is that the death of Osama bin Laden means nothing when it comes to the problem of international terrorism. His death simply serves as catharsis for a culture that has a neurotic fixation on revenge and retribution. The very fact that the Government which, from a psychological standpoint, has always served as a paternal figure for it citizens, reinforces the idea that murdering people is a solution to anything should be enough for most of us to take pause and consider the quality of the values coming out of the zeitgeist itself.

However, beyond the emotional distortions and tragic, vindictive pattern of rewarding the continuation of human division and violence comes a more practical consideration regarding what the problem really is and the importance of that problem with respect to priority.

The death of any human being is of an immeasurable consequence in society. It is never just the death of the individual. It is the death of relationships, companionship, support and the integrity of familial and communal environments. The unnecessary deaths of 3000 people on September 11, 2001 is no more or no less important than the deaths of those during the World Wars, via cancer and disease, accidents or anything else.

As a society, it is safe to say that we seek a world that strategically limits all such unnecessary consequences through social approaches that allow for the greatest safety our ingenuity can create. It is in this context that the neurotic obsession with the events of September 11th, 2001 become gravely insulting and detrimental to progress. An environment has now been created where outrageous amounts of money, resources and energy is spent seeking and destroying very small subcultures of human beings that pose ideological differences and act on those differences through violence.

Yet, in the United States alone each year, roughly 30,000 people die from automobile accidents, the majority of which could be stopped by very simple structural changes. That's ten 9/11's each year... yet no one seems to pine over this epidemic. Likewise, over 1 million Americans die from heart disease and cancer annually - causes of which are now easily linked to environmental influences in the majority. Yet, regardless of the over 330 9/11's occurring each year in this context, the governmental budget allocations for research on these illnesses is only a fraction of the money spent on ?anti-terrorism? operations.

Such a list could go on and on and with regard to the perversion of priority when it comes to what it means to truly save and protect human life and I hope many out there can recognize the severe unbalance we have at hand with respect to our values.

So, coming back to the point of revenge and retribution, I will conclude this response with a quote from Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., likely the most brilliant intuitive mind when it came to conflict and the power of non-violence. On September 15, 1963 a Birmingham Alabama church was bombed, killing four little girls attending Sunday school.

In a public address, Dr. King stated:

?What murdered these four girls? Look around. You will see that many people that you never thought about participated in this evil act. So tonight all of us must leave here with a new determination to struggle. God has a job for us to do. Maybe our mission is to save the soul of America. We can't save the soul of this nation throwing bricks. We can't save the soul of this nation getting our ammunitions and going out shooting physical weapons. We must know that we have something much more powerful. Just take up the ammunition of love.?

- Dr. Martin Luther King, 1963

~Peter Joseph
wwwthezeitgeistmovement.com