This Thread is About Asperger's Syndrome

[The_root_of_all_evil]

You need to understand that freedom of speech is more important than people's feelings.

No. Wrong. Completely. People have NO right to speak crap but every responsibility to avoid hurting others, whilst possible.

"Freedom of Speech" is just a crutch for people to justify any crazy ass action available.

Freedom of Belief is crucial, Freedom of Speech just gives scumbags of both sides a legal cover to hide their own misogyny.

I can't even use the word "Brainstorm" as it's 'offensive to epiletics', funny that I've not met one yet who was even slightly offended by it; and I'm not going to talk about "Thoughtshowers".

 

[BlueMage]

Wait a sec, do you know how much some people are altered by autsim. To the extent that they have no control over their actions?
Are you saying that that shouldn't excuse them?

You are quite right - it does NOT excuse their actions. It merely explains them.

Or perhaps I should put it another way.

Do you know just how impulsive some folk with ADHD are? To the point where they'll choke someone just because they made a joke about them.

Am I saying their condition shouldn't excuse their actions?

If you were somehow blackmailed into commiting a crime by a mafia boss, how would you feel if- in court- the judge said, "Well that's no excuse." And threw you away for life?

I may not like the choice, nor the consequences, but I still have the choice to say "No" to the Don. Of course, my life is likely forfeit at that point, but that is my choice regardless.

Also:

The same applies to autistics - it may explain your actions...

I'm not autistic.

Never said you were friend. The cruel hand of Fate simply placed your post directly before mine.

 

[zirnitra]

I was diagnosed with Aspergers at about 6 years old the same time I was diagnosed with Dyslexia and possible Dyspraxia (I'm good at gaming so I don't think the later is true at all)

Now because this is on my file whenever I changed schools I was always treated very oddly by teachers I'm not even so sure I have it. I understand jokes and at least I think so am quiet funny. I'm actually going to do a University degree in Comedy writing and performance. which I find this especially odd because the majority of the people I speak to on the internet (bar here) seem to have an irony deficiency. I remember one of the adverts for BF: Bad Company where Preston was promising his little brother he was not

"going to go on some crazy adventure where I single handedly take on hundreds of Russians on a quest for gold"

to which someone commented on youtube "this is a but stupid that's exactly what you do in the game"...YES THAT WAS THE FUCKING JOKE YOU CRETIN. now taking people seriously all the time and not understanding jokes is one of the classic characteristics of asberges and autism.

I think the trouble is very few people actually know what Asberges is. my school counsellor who was a fully trained psychiatric nurse couldn't explain it to me (I'd never really known what it was) she just lent me a copy of 'The Curious Incident Of The Dog In The Night Time' which was a huge success a few years ago. and I'm nothing like that so I still don't truly understand, maybe its just because of my high IQ but I think it's more to do with a misdiagnosis. I also think that counsellor was pretty useless she tried to get me to see more psychiatrists thinking I had Schizophrenia but I've seen so many in my time I refused.

 

[Booze Zombie]

Asperger's Syndrome is another way of saying you're an intelligent autistic, basically.
I'm not self-diagnosed, for anyone who possibly thinks that. I was diagnosed with it after certain schooling problems.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

Alas, I find myself disagreeing with The Root of all Evil. Once again.

Now, a little backgrounf here. I was once mistakenly diagnosed as Autistic. This represents one of the most confused, angry and hurt phases in my life- to suddenly discover that I was not 'normal', that for my life I would be markedly different to society. Of course, to me I was normal, but my defintion of 'normal' doesn't count. As it transpired, the entirety of my diagnosis was based upon my lack of social interaction with my fellow pupils with primary school. This primary school being Whaley Bridge Primary School in Derbyshire, it only follows that my classmates were overindulged dickholes who were at best repellent and at worst cruel to me. Then it transpired that I was indeed normal, as the reasons for my dislike of society were not physiological or mental, but rather sociological.

Look, what I'm trying to say is.... while I can't understand what it actually feels like to be you guys, I do understand a fraction of the pain you may have suffered. So please forgive me for what I must say:

Freedom of speech, sadly, trumps your right to be offended. I'm sorry, and personally, I wish people would stop being so damned insulting, but you can't just punish someone because of what he says, no matter how hurt you are. That road leads to tyranny and oppression, it creates a mindset where if one thing becomes impermissible by decree, another must, and another, and another.

What must happen, alas, is that such people must be allowed to air their views. And be ripped to pieces in public debate by the reasonable people of the world-they and others like them must be demostrated as fools, bigots and truly depraved, and thus be forced to alter their ways or be mocked.

It takes more time, but is equally effective. Banning may stop people from saying it- this will cure them of thinking it.

Plus, I like some of those jokes, much as I like jokes about black people and gays. Alas, humour is both a coping mechanism, and also an entertainment mechanism. And I do not tolerate interference in my humour.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Alas, I find myself disagreeing with The Root of all Evil. Once again.

Heh, It happens.

The thing is though, I don't think you are disagreeing. Or that I'm agreeing with you.

I did try to specify that in "every responsibility to avoid hurting others, whilst possible."

Now, if you're telling an off-colour joke, that's not a problem. If you're telling it around people who are affected, but not likely to be offended, still no problem.

BUT, if you're telling it around people who will get offended and then pull out the "FREEDOM OF SPEECH" card, then you're an insensitive dick.

So, Offense trumps Freedom trumps Rights.

If you're in a class teaching people about the Holocaust, and someone talks about Herr Adolf, then you've no right to get all upset, no matter what's said, because you knew there would be some N.A.S.I. sympathisers.
If you're in the street and someone does likewise, then you've every right to ask them to be quiet because they're being offensive, and they should really quieten down.
If someone is using it as a 'fact' though, you've a right to stuff it down their damn throat.

Whilst I'm sure I could joke to Fondant about South Africa, I'd still be a little careful. Basic respect for others trumps any Freedom you may have. Without that, we lose all hope of a higher Government.

And the real point here is that a lot of mentally incapable (I still don't know what the PC word for that is) aren't able to state when they are getting abused.

 

[Danny Ocean]

You're saying one of the reasons that it's wrong to make fun of autistics is because many of them can't comprehend the insults? If they can't comprehend the insult then they don't get angry.

They don't understand the words, but they understand the malice behind the words. So they still get angry.
E.G. You can't win an argument with an autistic person by shouting louder, because then it just spirals out of control.

That's like saying it's morally wrong to hit a pitbull even though he can't feel it.

I always thought it was.

Secondly, I fail to see how the fact that it's not a lifestyle choice is relevant.

It's oft regarded as acceptable to mock people if they choose to be the way they are.
In responce to the black/white/ill/whatever card, remember that most autistic people can't argue back, they can be beaten up in the street, and when they get back, the carer won't be able to know.

Humor is a coping mechanism and is one of the ways that humans choose to deal with sad issues such as mental retardation. No one is saying that it's not tragic, but as they say - comedy is tragedy + time.

Humour is taken too far when the butt of the joke doesn't have something to say about it. It is then the excuse,
"Hey man I was only joking."

so Richard Prior must be pretty high on your shit list, along with dave chappelle, chubby brown, etc...

Who?

The argument that it can trigger violence is bullshit as well. Making fun of Muslims can also incite violence (and on a much larger scale), does that mean we should never make fun of them for the fact that Muhammed married an 8 year old girl, or never make fun of Catholics for their priests being child molestors?

*sigh*
For the most part, we don't. In all the stand-up I've watched, I've never seen a stand up make a joke about disabled people (mentally or otherwise) and not get shot down.

I'm sick of this growing trend of political correctness coming from the far left, which is ironic considering they're the ones who whine about censorship. You need to understand that freedom of speech is more important than people's feelings.

This isn't political correctness. This is knowing when to stop. In the same league as being polite.

 

[Strafe Mcgee]

Sensible, intelligent arguments.

Well put. It's one thing to make a light hearted joke when people aren't going to be offended, quite another to intentionally hurt someone. Freedom of speech isn't an excuse for bigotry, it's designed to allow people to speak their mind about important issues.

Anyway, my brother has asperger's syndrome and I've often wondered whether I have a mild case of it myself. Regardless, I moved back to Scotland (that treasured land of tolerance) after living in Kenya for 5 years with my brother to attend primary school in a small town. We both had a really hard time fitting in because we were both different- me because I'd been raised in a friendly, tolerant environment and was perceived as being a fucking wierdo. Cut through 7 years of school and the hard time I had there's left me an introverted, angst ridden guy that still has issues meeting people, doing jobs that I'm unused to and all of the other social stuff that should really be easy for me by now.

My brother was bullied mercilessly at primary school to the extent that after a particular bully had pushed him too far, he stood up and smashed his face off of a desk in the middle of class. No matter what I tried to do, people wouldn't leave him alone and I had no-one else to help me stand up for him because I was just as ostracised as he was. He's had a hard life so far, and now that he's finally left school he seems to be having a much better life so far as I can tell.

...you know I've actually forgotten my point now that I've typed all that up? Ach well. Felt good to get it out of my system anyway. And please don't be such an insensitive eejit next time you're posting about sensitive subjects Kurtz. It's offensive and whilst Americans do have a right to free speech, don't you also have a right to remain silent?

 

[Danny Ocean]

post

Both my brothers are autistic. Which is all the more surprising as I'm the youngest of 3 from the same mother, and one of them is my twin. 6 minutes older than me.
How did that happen? Maybe I do have autism, but it doesn't seem to be showing any affects, yet.

Anyway, the amount of times I've had to stick up for my brothers just isn't fair. For me or them. It's one of the reasons I started tkd, so I could stick up for them when things get rough. Hehe, then again, one of my brothers is 6'4" and 16 stone, when he gets angry people notice. The other- my twin- defaults to tensing his muscles, rather than relaxing them (it's part of his condition). So he's insanely strong. Both are riddled with testosterone as is typical of this age, so they both anger really easily. Part of my job is calming them down.

[/vent. Don't quote this as an argument for or against me, I just wanted to get it out of my system.]

 

[BlazeTheVampire]

Freedom of speech, sadly, trumps your right to be offended. I'm sorry, and personally, I wish people would stop being so damned insulting, but you can't just punish someone because of what he says, no matter how hurt you are. That road leads to tyranny and oppression, it creates a mindset where if one thing becomes impermissible by decree, another must, and another, and another.

I think I may have to disagree with you, though only slightly, for the first time since I've been on this forum, lol. The people that are made fun of are punished too for being what they are. They're constantly harassed or rejected- this isn't a matter of not being able to laugh at one's own shortcomings. It's a matter of being constantly persecuted for something they can never change or do anything about. Someone's speech can be withheld, but someone's disorder cannot.

Although my stance on the entire thing is that no point any of us make, no matter how valid, against harassment, it won't make a difference. Our words are falling on deaf ears anyways (and dear Goddess, if someone takes offense to that, I give up). The people who say these things already don't care about the person's feelings and chances are that they never will. Best we can do is set an example.

What must happen, alas, is that such people must be allowed to air their views. And be ripped to pieces in public debate by the reasonable people of the world-they and others like them must be demonstrated as fools, bigots and truly depraved, and thus be forced to alter their ways or be mocked.

It takes more time, but is equally effective. Banning may stop people from saying it- this will cure them of thinking it.

Isn't that sort of vigilante justice generally frowned upon? Further, I've yet to see it work. Think of all of those people out there who drive for miles, carrying white sheets, so that they can stand between families of fallen soldiers and members of the Westboro Baptist Church. to try and protect the families from harassment. Every funeral they protest, people are there to deter them, argue with them, or just hide them from the view of the world, but they still do it. I'm fairly certain that some people are just so set in their beliefs and values that nobody can change their minds in any way.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

What- if someone says: "Hitler was a great man, and it's a shame he didn't wipe out all the Jews, Slavs, Gays etc"- then you say: "You truly are deluded. The extermination of the minorities of eastern Europe was one of the most grotesque, cruel and needless acts of history, and I'd personally reccomend you to realise that before Mossad comes to take you away"

And Root- Please make some SA jokes. This nation is a joke- it's run by morons and thugs, and will go the same way as Zim unless we all get lucky. So, go ahead- I'd like to hear a foriegn perspective on my current nation of occupance.

 

[BlazeTheVampire]

I'm afraid I'm not seeing your point, Fondant.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

And Root- Please make some SA jokes. This nation is a joke- it's run by morons and thugs, and will go the same way as Zim unless we all get lucky. So, go ahead- I'd like to hear a foriegn perspective on my current nation of occupance.

And for that reason I really can't. England is no better with it's authoritarian rules overriding common sense; but at the moment it's not as violent as SA.

The only one's I can remember are all takes on the South African pronunciation of 'A's as 'Ih': and that's equal with the Ozzies; some jokes about P.W.Botha's [ANC Guy : "You can't put a better bit of Botha on your knife..."] and the whole "I've never met a nice South African" sketch from Spitting Image, which I PM'd you.

As for the speech, well...surely that proves that Non-offense trumps Free Speech, unless it's in a place where ALL free speech is allowed (Like a Debating Area). If you take offence there, then you're simply card waving.

A better comeback would simply to be "Well, given the Herrenvolk standards, both you and that Austrian Midget wouldn't be allowed in."

 

[werepossum]

It's worth pointing out that many people today diagnosed with autism and its variants like Asperger's would have been considered within the mainstream when I was growing up. At that time, an autistic was someone who could not function, could not communicate or cope with others. Most people diagnosed with autism and its variants like Asperger's in today's world are perfectly able to understand the words and to be insulted by the words' meaning, not just the tone (as amply evidenced by this very thread.) More and more people today are classified as abnormal in some manner or other. For a fun exercise, extrapolate the percentage of the world's population defined as abnormal today and over the last hundred years to determine how long before the "normal" population is reduced to one person.

It's also worth pointing out that being harassed and/or ostracized doesn't happen because someone is different, but because they are perceived as different. You can have the exact same difference in two different people and have vastly different levels of acceptance. You can even have vastly different levels of acceptance with the same person as that person moves between different groups. For instance, the person with Asperger's might not be accepted in one certain school, but completely accepted in another school, at work, in college, etc. And the same difference - say, Goth dress and manner, or an anti-social outlook - might be seen as different and strange (and therefore ostracized) within one group, and seen as different and intriguing within another group. My point is that harassment is not as much a function of those harassed as of the harassers and of group dynamics.

I'm fairly certain that some people are just so set in their beliefs and values that nobody can change their minds in any way.

Members of the Westboro Baptist Church aren't actually people; they're just superficially similar to people. I like to think of them as turds who have evolved a human appearance to avoid being flushed.

 

[Aries_Split]

This thread is an example of an intelligent debate. I love it, I've read through each post and found new and interesting points in each one. Now for my input >.>

I don't have or closely know anyone that has Aspergers, but this thread triggered a memory I have of the seventh grade. I had my first period with this quiet kid whom I will refer to as Zack. I disliked him. He made stupid, insensitive jokes, and rarely talked to anyone. One day I was put in a group with 2 of my friends, and Zack. I was looking through a magazine of mine, and one of my friend says "that's an awesome car" referring to the Car in the magazine. Zack butts in and says "That's a piece of crap car."
I then sarcastically say to him "your a piece of crap car."
Tears well in his eyes and he runs off.
I feel bad so I go over to apologize and he just starts shouting "NO NO NO NO".
I labeled him in my mind as a fucking freak and never went near him again. But now, almost 10 years later, a sentence in this thread caught my eye.

They don't understand the words, but they understand the malice behind the words.
E.G. You can't win an argument with an autistic person by shouting louder, because then it just spirals out of control.

I suddenly have a flashback to the kid, and suddenly understand his actions, and feel like total jackass.
/worthless memory no one cares about.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

/worthless memory no one cares about.

If it stops you making the same mistake again, it's not worthless.

Hell, I panicked when I saw someone go into an epileptic seizure because usually it's me that's having them.

 

[Booze Zombie]

/worthless memory no one cares about.

I'm glad someone got something good out of this thread, though I think maybe people are getting the wrong idea from my original post.

I object to being insulted.

Any confusion, Mistah?

 

[jake09050]

the curious incident about the dog in the nighttime is an incredible book

 

[Saskwach]

I'm afraid I'm not seeing your point, Fondant.

He was saying that the right to say offensive things (within certain limitations) is protected over the right to be offended. If someone said something shitty, but not illegal, to you (in a public place or a private place you don't own) then your only options are to a) rip them to pieces (with words) or b) grin and bear it, or c) leave. There is no right to shut their mouths.
What you said about Fondant's earlier post was nice and understandable but didn't actually prove anything. Fondant had said "it sucks but there's no way to stop it in a free society" and you said "it's about compassion and respect and disrespectful people should shut up" [huge paraphrasings all round]. Yes, they should shut up, but Fondant wasn't saying they shouldn't: he was saying that to make them shut up wasn't an option in a free country.

 

[Booze Zombie]

Quick hypothetical here. What if in said "free country", you pissed off a large group of people by being an asshole and they all choose to rip you to shreds and the police ignore it because you insulted them?

Freedom of speech is all well and good, but being intelligent doesn't hurt, you know?