Thoughts on California's Prop 22

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Houseman

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Yes, that's the deal. Voting Yes means you support the current system were the companies take no responsibility for their drivers, because they don't consider the drivers employees but independent contractors. Thus any accident, injury or similar and all associated costs gets moved from the company to the individual driver.
In theory, sure, but Uber offers insurance for drivers

If the deal were too bad, only the most desperate of people would take the job, and that's not good for business when you have customer-facing roles.
 

Trunkage

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In theory, sure, but Uber offers insurance for drivers

If the deal were too bad, only the most desperate of people would take the job, and that's not good for business when you have customer-facing roles.
Have you used Uber? Because this sounds like you haven't...

To be fair, I don't like using taxis either
 
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lil devils x

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Have you used Uber? Because this sounds like you haven't...

To be fair, I don't like using taxis either
In the country, you don't have Taxis or Uber much of the time or it costs a fortune IF they even bother to show up.
In the country, you may get lucky and have a neighbor's teenager that will drive you somewhere for gas money + tip and that is a much better deal either way. LOL

( That was who would give me rides to the rental car agency to pick up my rental) XD
 

Houseman

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Have you used Uber? Because this sounds like you haven't...

To be fair, I don't like using taxis either
Yeah, I've sat in an uber and gotten ferried around. I have no complaints. The drivers never seemed like "the most desperate of people".
The most desperate of people don't have cars.
 
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lil devils x

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Yeah, I've sat in an uber and gotten ferried around. I have no complaints. The drivers never seemed like "the most desperate of people".
The most desperate of people don't have cars.
Often the most desperate people DO drive for Uber, because most people would NEVER take that awful job. Look at their pay. Listen to what the Uber drivers have been telling us about their pay. Sometimes the most desperate people live in their cars, or are about to. Having a car costs a lot less than having an apartment. You have to be pretty depserate to work for $3.75 an hour.
 

Trunkage

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Yeah, I've sat in an uber and gotten ferried around. I have no complaints. The drivers never seemed like "the most desperate of people".
The most desperate of people don't have cars.
There is one place I dont want to meet a white man alone - an Uber or taxi. Because it's highly likely you're about to get Shapiroed. Or Rubined. Somehow every other race is the worst and sometimes females too. Theyre destroying humanity and utterly hateful... I dont need that nonsense in my life

It is the one place I hope to get any minority.

Uber/taxi and customer service dont go in the same sentence. I go out of my way not to use either service. And the only reason this happens is because they're scraping the bottom of the barrel in regards to whites.
 

lil devils x

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There is one place I dont want to meet a white man alone - an Uber or taxi. Because it's highly likely you're about to get Shapiroed. Or Rubined. Somehow every other race is the worst and sometimes females too. Theyre destroying humanity and utterly hateful... I dont need that nonsense in my life

It is the one place I hope to get any minority.

Uber/taxi and customer service dont go in the same sentence. I go out of my way not to use either service. And the only reason this happens is because they're scraping the bottom of the barrel in regards to whites.
When I went clubbing, we always had a designated driver so that was never a problem. If I ever got into a bind, I would call family or friends if I really had to. For a ride the the rental car place, having a local teenager charge you gas+ tip works so much better.

I too have no desire to be alone in a car with a strange man late at night.. Nope. Hell no. I don't trust them during the day either though. Then again there are plenty of guys I do know that I wouldn't get into the car with as it is. I DO know them , that is why I wouldn't get in their car. XD
 

lil devils x

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So you work for Uber and get to pay Uber a part of your (meager) earnings so that Uber pays for something that an ordinary, non-scummy employer would pay for any way? That's a very bad deal.

More to the point: The beauty of Uber's model (from the perspective of Uber and shareholders anyway) is that the individual driver is not an Uber representative and gets paid shit, but they also get ratings from customers based on their performance. So the individual driver is incentivized to keep their ratings high as to not miss out on fares and so Uber can pay and treat them like shit and they can't take that frustration out on the customer, because the customer has an effective method of ensuring the driver gets less fares in the future. Uber's deal is bad, but as an oblivious Swedish journalist said recently in regards to the Gig Economy: "A little money is better then no money".

Uber is also "beneficial" (and this is probably the one good thing about Uber from a driver perspective) in the way that the driver is never obliged to work any specific hours but can choose when to take fares themselves, which means Uber is great as a 2nd or 3rd job. That's not a problem with Uber but with the messed up state of the economy in general, when you need to balance 2 or 3 jobs just to make ends meet.
Even then though, the drivers STILL have to pay to have liability car insurance on their own regardless just to have their car on the street at all in addition to Uber's supposed " bonus" insurance. We have had independent drivers long before Uber, they just get to keep all their money instead of give it to Uber and they are responsible for their own advertising and can set their own hours. We used to have independent drivers leave their cards up at the Bar for people to call if they needed a ride home all the time when I was bartending in college. They can advertise on Facebook in their community groups for their city and surrounding areas and build their own reputation that way. Uber just makes it easy for the customer to find a driver from one source rather than checking social media. Uber ran most of the independent drivers out of business, but if Uber does leave, it means the independent drivers go back to making better money again, they just have to advertise for themselves, which is still costing them less than it was to use Uber since they keep all of their fares.
 

lil devils x

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Arguably, Uber is much better for me as a prospective customer. Not only can I just whip out the app and get a ride in any city in the Western World, I can get a trusted ride. Even if Uber doesn't give a shit who drives for them, they still have personal data and someone who tries to sexually assault, stick up or otherwise commit crimes against their customers will be very easy to find and bring before the law. Even if it isn't outright criminal, but just a driver who is creepy, a little too handsy or won't shut up about how Hitler was right, it won't take long for their rating to drop and their fares to vanish. Because do you really want to take a ride with the guy who has reviews stating he likes to smell his passengers hair and wants to talk about their sexual experiences?

As much shit as Uber is, this is one of the biggest pros of it and similar apps: It makes it easy to avoid the bad apples and brings some much needed oversight (as ineffectual as it might be some times).
Since when is Uber a trusted ride?

Uber’s first ever safety report discloses 3,045 sexual assaults and nine murders in the US last year

So while taxi companies check a prospective driver's fingerprint records against a database that theoretically (more on that in a minute) includes a person's complete criminal history in the United States, Uber background checks use a database that can only go back seven years for some information. Late last year, San Francisco District Attorney George Gascon called Uber's background checks "completely worthless," according to the Los Angeles Times. And several Uber and UberX drivers in the Washington, D.C., area said Uber's background checks were hardly rigorous.

"Not really," said an Uber black car driver in Washington, D.C., who requested anonymity because he feared retribution. "Look, the real background check is getting fingerprinted and that takes how many weeks? This one is just online. A real background check is not like this. A real background check, the government approves you and checks everything. But Uber checks kind of. They're kind of background checks."



If anything it is a predator magnet ;s

I am not seeing the pros here. With the local driver or taxi company at least, you can have people who care about losing their job or their reputation. If you use a reputable Taxi company they actually do actual background checks and the driver risks benefits if they are fired. The local drivers work hard to build up repeat business and credibility, not just some random different person every time you use the app. I would trust the local driver that gave rides from the bar so much more than ANY Uber.. He wanted repeat business and it was his reputation on the line, he worked with the cops to give people rides home who they didn't think should be driving, not just some random Uber. The Uber driver risks nothing, no benefits, crappy pay, and hell he can even use a fake identity since they don't even fingerprint them. They don't even have to know who he really is. How are they ever going to find him without fingerprints to prove that is who he was?
 
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Houseman

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So you work for Uber and get to pay Uber a part of your (meager) earnings so that Uber pays for something that an ordinary, non-scummy employer would pay for any way? That's a very bad deal
I think it's free and automatic as long as you drive for Uber. Not 100% sure, but...
 

Shadyside

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Never had a problem with uber drivers. It was usually taxi drivers who were always rude and say stupid ignorant things.
 

lil devils x

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Uber also has 40 million rides in one month. While each and everyone of those assaults and murders are terrible and should never have happened, they make up a vanishingly small amount of all Uber rides.



Ubers background checks, flawed and incomplete as they are, are still massively better then the idea you pushed initially, that absolutely unknown local drivers drop their cards at venues where people might need a ride. That system, one without any checks or accountability before the reports of misconduct or crimes start rolling in and without any oversight, is much, much worse by all accounts. Uber at least has an interest in not being known as the company that matches you with your rapist, robber or murderer, whereas a bartender, bouncer or waitress can't possibly know if "Catch-A-Ride" is a legitimate business or a criminal scheme out to rob everyone who calls them on any given Saturday night.
That is among those that were reported. You also have to take into account that most sexual assaults are not reported in the US at all. The driver's aren't unknown on the local level, I am sorry if I didn't make that clear. They build up their business and reputation and often even leave cards with the cops if there is someone who needs a ride home, they often offer free rides and work for tips only when building up new business. These days they can use apps, social medial and yelp to verify them and their reputation. I am not aware if you have the same thing in sweden or not but it is not uncommon here and why Uber and lyft became a thing at all.

This is how it works:
But the reason why they are safer and more reliable is they build up local reputation and word of mouth so they will lose their entire business if they mess up or allow something bad to happen. They are usually well known among local police as well and use that as part of their business model. Bartenders DO know more than you think. In fact the way the businesses work here is bars and clubs share their information. When you throw out one person or hear of a local crime or feedback from customers, we would send the info to all the other bars in the area, or have a troublemaker they should need a heads up on to help keep their staff and customers safe, we sent photos/ description ect to all of them in our local business group. The local drivers have their photos up by the door where their cards are, we took photos of every driver so that doormen and customers would recognize them and let them in or notify their fare so that they would know their ride was there. Usually local businesses have a system to give each other a heads up on these things. If a driver messed up at all, they would be blacklisted by everyone and the cops would be given their photo from every bar in the region as well as the cops having their DL information to even be able to have a ride service in the city at all. Most bars have a " wall of shame" where they have photos of people not safe to let in or to leave with ect by the doorman so he can see very quickly who is banned and not allowed in. The car service still has to comply with local city laws. We didn't just let ANY driver leave their cards there, they had to build reputation to even get on the call list first. These days luckily you can check reputation online easily. They can build reputation by working with local police and helping give people free rides for them for either broken down cars, people left stranded at places and have no rides, they build reputation by both the police and the passengers that way before they can even get their foot in the door with local businesses.
 

Tireseas

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As a contractor you usually get paid more than an employee, because an employer needs to provide healthcare and all sorts of other benefits for an employee.

I switched from being a full-time employee to a half-time contractor and I still get paid more.
I just have to pay for my own health insurance, if I want any. Also, taxes are more complicated.
As someone who did Lyft for supplemental income while my business got to a point where it covered all my expenses, no, the idea that a contractor gets paid more is straight up false, especially once you factored in expenses such as fuel and maintenance. Over time, what I made from that driving dropped despite doing more passengers because the payment algorithm would shift downward without notice and they would constantly change how surge pricing worked, often to the driver's detriment. By most definitions of contract workers, rideshare apps would not qualify due to the lack of control over payment rates and the lack of driver's ability to control who their passengers are (you only get an option to accept or decline one at a time and you can be reassigned mid route to pick up).

The reality is that these apps are grossly under-regulated for the public service they provide, both in terms of consumer and worker protections. If the apps can't survive with the drivers being considered employees, then they don't deserve to survive period. Hell, Lyft and Uber's own business model isn't profitable to begin with. It's time to end the charade.
 

Houseman

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As someone who did Lyft for supplemental income while my business got to a point where it covered all my expenses, no, the idea that a contractor gets paid more is straight up false, especially once you factored in expenses such as fuel and maintenance.
I meant a contractor in general, not specifically an Uber/Lyft driver.
But I would expect their annual gross income to fall if they were considered employees, regardless. That's all I meant.
 
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lil devils x

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I meant a contractor in general, not specifically an Uber/Lyft driver.
But I would expect their annual gross income to fall if they were considered employees, regardless. That's all I meant.
If they were considered employees, they would have to meet wage laws as well, which they currently do not do.
 

Tireseas

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I meant a contractor in general, not specifically an Uber/Lyft driver.
But I would expect their annual gross income to fall if they were considered employees, regardless. That's all I meant.
It likely wouldn't as a lot of drivers drop below minimum wage once you divide their pay over hours worked (most drivers aren't paid while driving to the pick up location, which can be half or more of the total travel time for the driver). I've pulled 24-hours-worked weekends and got paid less than $10/hr despite near constant rides.
 

Silvanus

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Ubers background checks, flawed and incomplete as they are, are still massively better then the idea you pushed initially, that absolutely unknown local drivers drop their cards at venues where people might need a ride. That system, one without any checks or accountability before the reports of misconduct or crimes start rolling in and without any oversight, is much, much worse by all accounts. Uber at least has an interest in not being known as the company that matches you with your rapist, robber or murderer, whereas a bartender, bouncer or waitress can't possibly know if "Catch-A-Ride" is a legitimate business or a criminal scheme out to rob everyone who calls them on any given Saturday night.
In theory, sure-- but wasn't there a scandal quite recently where drivers were found to not even be the people registered with the company? The systems they have in place seem woefully inadequate, and exist solely for appearance.

To a degree, of course, the black-cab market in London brought this on itself through enormous overcharging.
 
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