To me Game of Thrones will never be the same (S4E8 discussion)

[Magmarock]

First and foremost please bare in mind that I have not read the books so please no spoils past this episode. Also if you have seen episode 8 yet this thread will be full of spoilers for this episode.

Spoiler

So prince Oberyn Martell dies in what is quite possibly the most gruesome and shocking death in GoT which is really saying something considering the show's reputation.

I must admit though that this left a particularly bitter and mean spirited after taste. For the first time I find myself unhappy with the writers discussion and the direction the story is going.

I'd like to know if anyone else felt the same way.

I'd like to explain why I feel this way and ask if anyone else feels the same way.

Oberyn was my favorite character in the show. Even more so then Tyrion Lannister. Form the start I liked him. He felt like the new hero the show desperately needed. I didn't expect him to last I knew he was too good to last, but I was expecting and hopping that he'd kill Gregor Clegane and maybe take out a few Lannisters before leaving or biting the dust.

As good as the writing in the shows are I felt that this time they over did it.

I understand that this is Game of Thrones and tragedy is bound to happen and no one is safe. But for the me the real tragedy is that my investment in the other characters has basically been reduced to nothing. I'm still going to watch the show and I'm still interested in what happens next, but I no longer care too much if the character pull through or not. I learned long ago that no one in GoT was safe but the new lesson from this episode is that not only is no one safe any of the characters can be killed in the most mean spirited way when things appear at their brightest.

As a result I don't think GoT will be able to shock me again. I feel that it's blown it's load and at this point and I will no longer be moved by any further revelations or main character deaths.

All, because the bad guys have had one too many victories. Joffrey's death was one victory for the good guys out of a dozen for the bad guys and each season thus far has ended with a very dark and mean spirited tone.

Spoiler

Ned Stark's death, Black Water, Red Wedding, and now Oberyn

You know how if you make the good guys over powered you stop caring; well I'm worried GoT is doing the same with the bad guys. It gets to a point where I've just lost hope for the good guys and whatever quasi hope they get will soon be shattered by tragedy around the corner.

So what do yous guys think. Was the timing of Oberyn Martell's death a disservice to the story? and how did it make you feel. How do you feel about the show's future?

 

[Xeorm]

Personally, I still really enjoy it. Losing characters you've invested in emotionally still really sucks, but I've also found myself still rooting for characters. It's too much not to when I'm so used to the traditional story where no one dies.

It's brutal, and I love it.

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

I am going to just spoiler all of this for safety. It is mostly discussing GoT in general from a show perspective but has some spoilers.

Spoiler

I rather felt the same way however I have also not read the books. However, from what I understand based on what a friend told me who has that Oberyn is kind of just a cool tertiary character in the books. The problem is that Pedro Pascal gave him a lot of charisma and screen presence and he saw a fair bit of screen time. Therefore, I think show watchers ended up liking the character a lot more. He seemed like a hero type that the show hadn't seen in awhile, since he wanted justice for his sisters and no one liked The Mountain really.
Also, he was representing Tyrion who I am pretty sure is a huge fan favorite. It brings up an interesting point that I knew they weren't going to do wherein, what do you do when you introduce a character that isn't much of anything in the books and in the show, the actor steals the show. He becomes a lot more popular than in the books, but because in the books he was so so and he bites it fairly quickly, do you change the storyline because of it?
A lot of people will say absolutely not. However, personally, I don't really give two shits about the books or what happens in them. I know a lot of book fans get upset about changes but really, don't care. I only care about the show and that the show performs well and is interesting. If that means drastic changes from the book, so be it. The book readers will always have the books, after all.

In the end though, we'll see what happens. If Tyrion does in fact bite it now that Oberyn has failed and he was sentenced to death, I can see myself losing a lot of interest in the series. You can only have so many losses dealt to the heroes before you start to suffer Walking Dead syndrome. Wherein, there is no one left to root for and every episode leaves you feeling drained and depressed and there is no further desire to watch it.

All of that said, we'll see what happens. This is clearly a low point in the story for many characters, things are getting dire. We'll see if Martin is a good enough author to realize you can't have lows without highs. If not, the show will become uninteresting and I'll probably stop watching it but that moment has not come yet.
It sucks Oberyn died but whatcha going to do. He had a good run at least and perhaps one of his daughters will be interesting and get some revenge.

Lastly, I mean, it was kind of Oberyn's fault. If he had just put his spear through The Mountain's face when he was on the ground, he'd have won easily. He wouldn't have his confession but he could have pursued other avenues. He was hot headed and in the end, that is ultimately what destroyed him. It makes sense in terms of the story. That doesn't make it any less bitter though. The death was meant to make you squirm, especially if you loved Oberyn and a lot of people did. In that regard, it was poignant storytelling. It left you with a sick feeling in your stomach.

 

[IllumInaTIma]

Yeah, I'm just gonna copy what I posten in another thread

I'm so freaking furious with that fight... I mean, I'm not against Oberyn dying, I'm against how he died. It just felt so completely forced. Are you seriously telling me that a warrior of Oberyn's skills and reflexes wouldn't just, you know, ROLL AWAY after getting swiped to the ground? Or that he wouldn't be able to simply block a direct hit to the face? Or are we just gonna dismiss that The Mountain was able to do all that after getting pierced, cut, and poisoned while wearing a HEAVY ARMOR! And not just that, that fucking caricature of a character even had a whitty remark to say as a final nail polish on the middle finger to the whole audience. It just felt forced. I don't think I was ever so disappointed with that show before. It just feels that everyone does deliberately stupid things just so that bad guys would win. Oh sure, give up to the army that has A FLAYED MAN as their flag, no way it's gonna backfire.

And also, when Mortal Kombat feels less violent that this, you know you're trying too hard.

 

[TheIronRuler]

Yeah, I'm just gonna copy what I posten in another thread

I'm so freaking furious with that fight... I mean, I'm not against Oberyn dying, I'm against how he died. It just felt so completely forced. Are you seriously telling me that a warrior of Oberyn's skills and reflexes wouldn't just, you know, ROLL AWAY after getting swiped to the ground? Or that he wouldn't be able to simply block a direct hit to the face? Or are we just gonna dismiss that The Mountain was able to do all that after getting pierced, cut, and poisoned while wearing a HEAVY ARMOR! And not just that, that fucking caricature of a character even had a whitty remark to say as a final nail polish on the middle finger to the whole audience. It just felt forced. I don't think I was ever so disappointed with that show before. It just feels that everyone does deliberately stupid things just so that bad guys would win. Oh sure, give up to the army that has A FLAYED MAN as their flag, no way it's gonna backfire.

And also, when Mortal Kombat feels less violent that this, you know you're trying too hard.

.
It's simple really, but I don't know if they show it in the show as much as in the books.

Spoiler

During the fight he repeats his accusations more and more, concentrating on enraging the mountain and forcing him to confess to his face (and in public), plus extorting the name of the man who gave the order to do the deed (Tywin). His surprise confession caught Oberyn off-guard, Because of that Oberyn was distracted enough for the mountain to catch him unprepared. The end result was his splattered brains. Not such a big deal - the mountain is HUGE. He had taken many, many wounds during the war and had survived hundreds of battles and skirmishes. He earned his namesake - He's a motherfucking MOUNTAIN of a man. Of course he can still beat the ever-living crap out of Oberyn even after taking a severe beating and many wounds.

 

[IllumInaTIma]

Yeah, I'm just gonna copy what I posten in another thread

I'm so freaking furious with that fight... I mean, I'm not against Oberyn dying, I'm against how he died. It just felt so completely forced. Are you seriously telling me that a warrior of Oberyn's skills and reflexes wouldn't just, you know, ROLL AWAY after getting swiped to the ground? Or that he wouldn't be able to simply block a direct hit to the face? Or are we just gonna dismiss that The Mountain was able to do all that after getting pierced, cut, and poisoned while wearing a HEAVY ARMOR! And not just that, that fucking caricature of a character even had a whitty remark to say as a final nail polish on the middle finger to the whole audience. It just felt forced. I don't think I was ever so disappointed with that show before. It just feels that everyone does deliberately stupid things just so that bad guys would win. Oh sure, give up to the army that has A FLAYED MAN as their flag, no way it's gonna backfire.

And also, when Mortal Kombat feels less violent that this, you know you're trying too hard.

.
It's simple really, but I don't know if they show it in the show as much as in the books.

Spoiler

During the fight he repeats his accusations more and more, concentrating on enraging the mountain and forcing him to confess to his face (and in public), plus extorting the name of the man who gave the order to do the deed (Tywin). His surprise confession caught Oberyn off-guard, Because of that Oberyn was distracted enough for the mountain to catch him unprepared. The end result was his splattered brains. Not such a big deal - the mountain is HUGE. He had taken many, many wounds during the war and had survived hundreds of battles and skirmishes. He earned his namesake - He's a motherfucking MOUNTAIN of a man. Of course he can still beat the ever-living crap out of Oberyn even after taking a severe beating and many wounds.

You don't have to tell me what happened in the episode. Here comes my problem. Okay, Oberyn was caught off guard, fair enough. First of all, Oberyn is a martial artist. One of the first things they teach you in almost any existing martial art is how to regroup during your fall to minimize the damage. It's called "Ukemi" in some martial arts and this is why fighters are able to toss each other around without breaking skulls and bones. The warrior of Oberyn's level must have this kind of thing memorized to the level of reflex, ESPECIALLY considering very theatrical and agile fighting style of Oberyn. So, Oberyn was supposed to be able to regroup and simply roll away from the danger. But okay, let's assume he fell down and got stunned for a moment. So Mountain grabs and lifts Oberyn and tries to punch him in the face. You know what any sane person would do? Put a palm between his face and incoming fist. As simple as that. The Mountain didn't hold Oberyn's hands, so there was NOTHING preventing him from blocking that hit. So it's double bullshit. And my suspension of disbelief can stretch only so far when it comes to even extraordinary human beings. Unless The Mountain was injected with Captain America serum it was nigh impossible for him to do all that shit after getting stabbed, cut, poisoned and tired all the while wearing a medieval HEAVY ARMOR. You know, the kind of armor that was so heavy, that it would pin fallen knight to the ground.

 

[TheIronRuler]

Yeah, I'm just gonna copy what I posten in another thread

I'm so freaking furious with that fight... I mean, I'm not against Oberyn dying, I'm against how he died. It just felt so completely forced. Are you seriously telling me that a warrior of Oberyn's skills and reflexes wouldn't just, you know, ROLL AWAY after getting swiped to the ground? Or that he wouldn't be able to simply block a direct hit to the face? Or are we just gonna dismiss that The Mountain was able to do all that after getting pierced, cut, and poisoned while wearing a HEAVY ARMOR! And not just that, that fucking caricature of a character even had a whitty remark to say as a final nail polish on the middle finger to the whole audience. It just felt forced. I don't think I was ever so disappointed with that show before. It just feels that everyone does deliberately stupid things just so that bad guys would win. Oh sure, give up to the army that has A FLAYED MAN as their flag, no way it's gonna backfire.

And also, when Mortal Kombat feels less violent that this, you know you're trying too hard.

.
It's simple really, but I don't know if they show it in the show as much as in the books.

Spoiler

During the fight he repeats his accusations more and more, concentrating on enraging the mountain and forcing him to confess to his face (and in public), plus extorting the name of the man who gave the order to do the deed (Tywin). His surprise confession caught Oberyn off-guard, Because of that Oberyn was distracted enough for the mountain to catch him unprepared. The end result was his splattered brains. Not such a big deal - the mountain is HUGE. He had taken many, many wounds during the war and had survived hundreds of battles and skirmishes. He earned his namesake - He's a motherfucking MOUNTAIN of a man. Of course he can still beat the ever-living crap out of Oberyn even after taking a severe beating and many wounds.

You don't have to tell me what happened in the episode. Here comes my problem. Okay, Oberyn was caught off guard, fair enough. First of all, Oberyn is a martial artist. One of the first things they teach you in almost any existing martial art is how to regroup during your fall to minimize the damage. It's called "Ukemi" in some martial arts and this is why fighters are able to toss each other around without breaking skulls and bones. The warrior of Oberyn's level must have this kind of thing memorized to the level of reflex, ESPECIALLY considering very theatrical and agile fighting style of Oberyn. So, Oberyn was supposed to be able to regroup and simply roll away from the danger. But okay, let's assume he fell down and got stunned for a moment. So Mountain grabs and lifts Oberyn and tries to punch him in the face. You know what any sane person would do? Put a palm between his face and incoming fist. As simple as that. The Mountain didn't hold Oberyn's hands, so there was NOTHING preventing him from blocking that hit. So it's double bullshit. And my suspension of disbelief can stretch only so far when it comes to even extraordinary human beings. Unless The Mountain was injected with Captain America serum it was nigh impossible for him to do all that shit after getting stabbed, cut, poisoned and tired all the while wearing a medieval HEAVY ARMOR. You know, the kind of armor that was so heavy, that it would pin fallen knight to the ground.

.
For the love of...

Spoiler

In the books they do it while both are still plastered on the floor.

The Mountain IS CAPTAIN WESTEROS. He cannot be killed. -edit-

Oberyn is dead so we can open up the whole Dorne saga. -edit-

 

[IllumInaTIma]

Yeah, I'm just gonna copy what I posten in another thread

I'm so freaking furious with that fight... I mean, I'm not against Oberyn dying, I'm against how he died. It just felt so completely forced. Are you seriously telling me that a warrior of Oberyn's skills and reflexes wouldn't just, you know, ROLL AWAY after getting swiped to the ground? Or that he wouldn't be able to simply block a direct hit to the face? Or are we just gonna dismiss that The Mountain was able to do all that after getting pierced, cut, and poisoned while wearing a HEAVY ARMOR! And not just that, that fucking caricature of a character even had a whitty remark to say as a final nail polish on the middle finger to the whole audience. It just felt forced. I don't think I was ever so disappointed with that show before. It just feels that everyone does deliberately stupid things just so that bad guys would win. Oh sure, give up to the army that has A FLAYED MAN as their flag, no way it's gonna backfire.

And also, when Mortal Kombat feels less violent that this, you know you're trying too hard.

.
It's simple really, but I don't know if they show it in the show as much as in the books.

Spoiler

During the fight he repeats his accusations more and more, concentrating on enraging the mountain and forcing him to confess to his face (and in public), plus extorting the name of the man who gave the order to do the deed (Tywin). His surprise confession caught Oberyn off-guard, Because of that Oberyn was distracted enough for the mountain to catch him unprepared. The end result was his splattered brains. Not such a big deal - the mountain is HUGE. He had taken many, many wounds during the war and had survived hundreds of battles and skirmishes. He earned his namesake - He's a motherfucking MOUNTAIN of a man. Of course he can still beat the ever-living crap out of Oberyn even after taking a severe beating and many wounds.

You don't have to tell me what happened in the episode. Here comes my problem. Okay, Oberyn was caught off guard, fair enough. First of all, Oberyn is a martial artist. One of the first things they teach you in almost any existing martial art is how to regroup during your fall to minimize the damage. It's called "Ukemi" in some martial arts and this is why fighters are able to toss each other around without breaking skulls and bones. The warrior of Oberyn's level must have this kind of thing memorized to the level of reflex, ESPECIALLY considering very theatrical and agile fighting style of Oberyn. So, Oberyn was supposed to be able to regroup and simply roll away from the danger. But okay, let's assume he fell down and got stunned for a moment. So Mountain grabs and lifts Oberyn and tries to punch him in the face. You know what any sane person would do? Put a palm between his face and incoming fist. As simple as that. The Mountain didn't hold Oberyn's hands, so there was NOTHING preventing him from blocking that hit. So it's double bullshit. And my suspension of disbelief can stretch only so far when it comes to even extraordinary human beings. Unless The Mountain was injected with Captain America serum it was nigh impossible for him to do all that shit after getting stabbed, cut, poisoned and tired all the while wearing a medieval HEAVY ARMOR. You know, the kind of armor that was so heavy, that it would pin fallen knight to the ground.

.
For the love of...

Spoiler

In the books they do it while both are still plastered on the floor.

The Mountain IS CAPTAIN WESTEROS. He cannot be killed. It took DAYS for the poison to finish him off. His screaming was heard all over the Castle. Even after he's dead he still fights duels - at least that's what I hope Qyburn is planning with Robert Strong.

Oberyn is dead so we can open up the whole Dorne saga. His death brings the struggle over the throne of Dorne into the book - which isn't a struggle as much as it is a young girl's fantasy. It has to happen. Oberyn dies.

I'm sorry, didn't you see S4E8 in the topic name? We don't talk about the book here. I don't care how it was portrayed in the book, I'm talking about the way it was portrayed in the show. And as I said, I have nothing against the fact that Oberyn is dead, I have problems with the way he died.

 

[Magmarock]

Yeah, I'm just gonna copy what I posten in another thread

I'm so freaking furious with that fight... I mean, I'm not against Oberyn dying, I'm against how he died. It just felt so completely forced. Are you seriously telling me that a warrior of Oberyn's skills and reflexes wouldn't just, you know, ROLL AWAY after getting swiped to the ground? Or that he wouldn't be able to simply block a direct hit to the face? Or are we just gonna dismiss that The Mountain was able to do all that after getting pierced, cut, and poisoned while wearing a HEAVY ARMOR! And not just that, that fucking caricature of a character even had a whitty remark to say as a final nail polish on the middle finger to the whole audience. It just felt forced. I don't think I was ever so disappointed with that show before. It just feels that everyone does deliberately stupid things just so that bad guys would win. Oh sure, give up to the army that has A FLAYED MAN as their flag, no way it's gonna backfire.

And also, when Mortal Kombat feels less violent that this, you know you're trying too hard.

Yeah I think you kind of summed it up. I'm still going to watch it to see where it goes. But some serious payback has got to happen soon or I will probably just lose interest. The good guys are not getting enough breaks to justify the investment.

 

[TheIronRuler]

Yeah, I'm just gonna copy what I posten in another thread

I'm so freaking furious with that fight... I mean, I'm not against Oberyn dying, I'm against how he died. It just felt so completely forced. Are you seriously telling me that a warrior of Oberyn's skills and reflexes wouldn't just, you know, ROLL AWAY after getting swiped to the ground? Or that he wouldn't be able to simply block a direct hit to the face? Or are we just gonna dismiss that The Mountain was able to do all that after getting pierced, cut, and poisoned while wearing a HEAVY ARMOR! And not just that, that fucking caricature of a character even had a whitty remark to say as a final nail polish on the middle finger to the whole audience. It just felt forced. I don't think I was ever so disappointed with that show before. It just feels that everyone does deliberately stupid things just so that bad guys would win. Oh sure, give up to the army that has A FLAYED MAN as their flag, no way it's gonna backfire.

And also, when Mortal Kombat feels less violent that this, you know you're trying too hard.

Yeah I think you kind of summed it up. I'm still going to watch it to see where it goes. But some serious payback has got to happen soon or I will probably just lose interest. The good guys are not getting enough breaks to justify the investment.

.
Who do you consider to be "the good guys"? It's curious for me to know. I haven't talked about GoT with a lot of people... I only know the way I look at the show. Oberyn was just introduced, how could he be "The Good Guy" already?

 

[Magmarock]

Spoiler

In the books they do it while both are still plastered on the floor.

The Mountain IS CAPTAIN WESTEROS. He cannot be killed. It took DAYS for the poison to finish him off. His screaming was heard all over the Castle. Even after he's dead he still fights duels - at least that's what I hope Qyburn is planning with Robert Strong.

Oberyn is dead so we can open up the whole Dorne saga. His death brings the struggle over the throne of Dorne into the book - which isn't a struggle as much as it is a young girl's fantasy. It has to happen. Oberyn dies.

MATE! what did I say about keeping the books out of it. I know there's a spoiler alert but I specifically request to keep the books out to make it safe for the people who've seen the show up to this point.

 

[TheIronRuler]

Spoiler

In the books they do it while both are still plastered on the floor.

The Mountain IS CAPTAIN WESTEROS. He cannot be killed. It took DAYS for the poison to finish him off. His screaming was heard all over the Castle. Even after he's dead he still fights duels - at least that's what I hope Qyburn is planning with Robert Strong.

Oberyn is dead so we can open up the whole Dorne saga. His death brings the struggle over the throne of Dorne into the book - which isn't a struggle as much as it is a young girl's fantasy. It has to happen. Oberyn dies.

MATE! what did I say about keeping the books out of it. I know there's a spoiler alert but I specifically request to keep the books out to make it safe for the people who've seen the show up to this point.

.
I edited it. Sorry for the slip, I didn't mean to spoil it. At any rate the show is diverging from the books as we speak. There's no way it could end after book 7 is published.

 

[Magmarock]

I am going to just spoiler all of this for safety. It is mostly discussing GoT in general from a show perspective but has some spoilers.

Spoiler

I rather felt the same way however I have also not read the books. However, from what I understand based on what a friend told me who has that Oberyn is kind of just a cool tertiary character in the books. The problem is that Pedro Pascal gave him a lot of charisma and screen presence and he saw a fair bit of screen time. Therefore, I think show watchers ended up liking the character a lot more. He seemed like a hero type that the show hadn't seen in awhile, since he wanted justice for his sisters and no one liked The Mountain really.
Also, he was representing Tyrion who I am pretty sure is a huge fan favorite. It brings up an interesting point that I knew they weren't going to do wherein, what do you do when you introduce a character that isn't much of anything in the books and in the show, the actor steals the show. He becomes a lot more popular than in the books, but because in the books he was so so and he bites it fairly quickly, do you change the storyline because of it?
A lot of people will say absolutely not. However, personally, I don't really give two shits about the books or what happens in them. I know a lot of book fans get upset about changes but really, don't care. I only care about the show and that the show performs well and is interesting. If that means drastic changes from the book, so be it. The book readers will always have the books, after all.

In the end though, we'll see what happens. If Tyrion does in fact bite it now that Oberyn has failed and he was sentenced to death, I can see myself losing a lot of interest in the series. You can only have so many losses dealt to the heroes before you start to suffer Walking Dead syndrome. Wherein, there is no one left to root for and every episode leaves you feeling drained and depressed and there is no further desire to watch it.

All of that said, we'll see what happens. This is clearly a low point in the story for many characters, things are getting dire. We'll see if Martin is a good enough author to realize you can't have lows without highs. If not, the show will become uninteresting and I'll probably stop watching it but that moment has not come yet.
It sucks Oberyn died but whatcha going to do. He had a good run at least and perhaps one of his daughters will be interesting and get some revenge.

Lastly, I mean, it was kind of Oberyn's fault. If he had just put his spear through The Mountain's face when he was on the ground, he'd have won easily. He wouldn't have his confession but he could have pursued other avenues. He was hot headed and in the end, that is ultimately what destroyed him. It makes sense in terms of the story. That doesn't make it any less bitter though. The death was meant to make you squirm, especially if you loved Oberyn and a lot of people did. In that regard, it was poignant storytelling. It left you with a sick feeling in your stomach.

I mostly agree with this. Oberyn should've just sliced his face however I also agree with [user]IllumInaTIma[/user] in that his death seemed forced and bull shitty.

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

Yeah, I'm just gonna copy what I posten in another thread

I'm so freaking furious with that fight... I mean, I'm not against Oberyn dying, I'm against how he died. It just felt so completely forced. Are you seriously telling me that a warrior of Oberyn's skills and reflexes wouldn't just, you know, ROLL AWAY after getting swiped to the ground? Or that he wouldn't be able to simply block a direct hit to the face? Or are we just gonna dismiss that The Mountain was able to do all that after getting pierced, cut, and poisoned while wearing a HEAVY ARMOR! And not just that, that fucking caricature of a character even had a whitty remark to say as a final nail polish on the middle finger to the whole audience. It just felt forced. I don't think I was ever so disappointed with that show before. It just feels that everyone does deliberately stupid things just so that bad guys would win. Oh sure, give up to the army that has A FLAYED MAN as their flag, no way it's gonna backfire.

And also, when Mortal Kombat feels less violent that this, you know you're trying too hard.

Yeah I think you kind of summed it up. I'm still going to watch it to see where it goes. But some serious payback has got to happen soon or I will probably just lose interest. The good guys are not getting enough breaks to justify the investment.

.
Who do you consider to be "the good guys"? It's curious for me to know. I haven't talked about GoT with a lot of people... I only know the way I look at the show. Oberyn was just introduced, how could he be "The Good Guy" already?

I can't speak for others. I wouldn't go so far as to say that Oberyn was "The good guy". However, Pedro Pascal really made him a likeable character basically. He also was fighting for justice against a guy who is kind of a huge asshole. He was also fighting for Tyrion which again, I think can be considered to be a good guy.

 

[Zhukov]

*shrug*

He went up against a hugely powerful fighter then started swaggering about instead of finishing the fight. Behaviour that was in accordance with his established personality. And his stupidity cost him his life.

I don't see a problem.

If Game of Thrones has a theme, it's that honourable idealists will always come second to pragmatic schemers and vicious bastards.

 

[Xyebane]

This episode really hit me hard as well. I really liked Oberyn and was super excited for this fight, and I figured it wasn't episode 9 either so I guess I had my hopes up.

I disagree with the end being bullshit however.

Spoiler

The whole point is that Gregor is a monster of a man and Oberyn became obsessed with revenge against the Lannistars to the point where he forgot the threat that Gregor poses in his rage to get him to confess that Tywin is ultimately responsible. If someone hit you so hard that your teeth all fell out you would struggle to remain conscious let alone be able to roll out of the way as some have suggested. Also, this whole thing happens so fast. That was what was so shocking about it. Oberyn won, we are all tense waiting for the big pay-off that Tywin is going to be called out, then bam; Roll credits.

So sad.

 

[Zhukov]

You don't have to tell me what happened in the episode. Here comes my problem. Okay, Oberyn was caught off guard, fair enough. First of all, Oberyn is a martial artist. One of the first things they teach you in almost any existing martial art is how to regroup during your fall to minimize the damage. It's called "Ukemi" in some martial arts and this is why fighters are able to toss each other around without breaking skulls and bones. The warrior of Oberyn's level must have this kind of thing memorized to the level of reflex, ESPECIALLY considering very theatrical and agile fighting style of Oberyn. So, Oberyn was supposed to be able to regroup and simply roll away from the danger. But okay, let's assume he fell down and got stunned for a moment. So Mountain grabs and lifts Oberyn and tries to punch him in the face. You know what any sane person would do? Put a palm between his face and incoming fist. As simple as that. The Mountain didn't hold Oberyn's hands, so there was NOTHING preventing him from blocking that hit. So it's double bullshit. And my suspension of disbelief can stretch only so far when it comes to even extraordinary human beings. Unless The Mountain was injected with Captain America serum it was nigh impossible for him to do all that shit after getting stabbed, cut, poisoned and tired all the while wearing a medieval HEAVY ARMOR. You know, the kind of armor that was so heavy, that it would pin fallen knight to the ground.

He was grabbed as soon as he hit the ground.

He's being grappled by a guy twice his weight and strength. No amount of "ukemi" is getting you out of that. (Incidentally, you're either using the wrong term there, or using it wrong.)

Likewise for being punched in the face by said guy who is twice his weight and strength and whose fists are clad in metal. Putting your palm in the way ain't gonna do shit.

Lastly, being pinned to the ground by the weight of your armour is a myth. Armour was heavy, but not that heavy. Nowhere near. Armour that heavy would render it's wearer useless and hardly able to move. Besides, the men who wore armour would train in practice harnesses that were heavier than the real thing, they'd be well accustomed to the weight.

 

[Scarim Coral]

Phh, I thought people are kind of used to the big shock event that happen in the last couple episodes of the season. Ok granted the fight did shock me but I did expected the result. Also FYI it did happened in the book which they just followed.

 

[TheIronRuler]

Yeah, I'm just gonna copy what I posten in another thread

I'm so freaking furious with that fight... I mean, I'm not against Oberyn dying, I'm against how he died. It just felt so completely forced. Are you seriously telling me that a warrior of Oberyn's skills and reflexes wouldn't just, you know, ROLL AWAY after getting swiped to the ground? Or that he wouldn't be able to simply block a direct hit to the face? Or are we just gonna dismiss that The Mountain was able to do all that after getting pierced, cut, and poisoned while wearing a HEAVY ARMOR! And not just that, that fucking caricature of a character even had a whitty remark to say as a final nail polish on the middle finger to the whole audience. It just felt forced. I don't think I was ever so disappointed with that show before. It just feels that everyone does deliberately stupid things just so that bad guys would win. Oh sure, give up to the army that has A FLAYED MAN as their flag, no way it's gonna backfire.

And also, when Mortal Kombat feels less violent that this, you know you're trying too hard.

Yeah I think you kind of summed it up. I'm still going to watch it to see where it goes. But some serious payback has got to happen soon or I will probably just lose interest. The good guys are not getting enough breaks to justify the investment.

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Who do you consider to be "the good guys"? It's curious for me to know. I haven't talked about GoT with a lot of people... I only know the way I look at the show. Oberyn was just introduced, how could he be "The Good Guy" already?

I can't speak for others. I wouldn't go so far as to say that Oberyn was "The good guy". However, Pedro Pascal really made him a likeable character basically. He also was fighting for justice against a guy who is kind of a huge asshole. He was also fighting for Tyrion which again, I think can be considered to be a good guy.

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Oberyn was fighting for revenge, really. Tyrion we get to like because he was being framed and scapegoated by his unhinged sister. I know he's Martin's favorite character which is why is survives this freaking long (and probably would pull through the next book at least), but the dwarf's only redeeming qualities are his sharp wit, being abused by his family (Tywin, Cereci, Joffery) and having this strange quality of random outbursts of bravery and decency... You could say he's a flawed good guy, but in all honesty I believe he's kept around just because he's awesome to write (for Martin) and read (for his fans). Plus, Dinklige tears that performance and makes him look kinda attractive and suave, which is like making the hunchback of notredame look like brad pit.

This game of thrones has no good guys. You just root for 'your' guys. For example, I love Davos Seaworth, Brienne of Tarth, The Hound, Catelyn Stark, Barristan Semly, Victarion Greyjoy and the bear - jorah mormont. They're all good and bad, flawed yet likable, and I want to carry on with her story. I shriek with every new Arya chapter since her bloody purpose can be revealed already and I've exhausted my mind with guessing what she would do next. I don't root for the Starks, or the Lannistars, or the goddamned bank of braavos... I just tag along for the ride. All of these characters are strong enough to carry the books (and the show) on their own. If they get offed - so be it. It's the game of thrones - a dangerous game to play.

 

[DJjaffacake]

Spoiler: There are some vague book spoilers in here. Nothing specific, just general intimations of what is coming

There are some wins for the good guys coming, including at least one, and in all likelihood two, by the end of this series.