To Spoil or Not to Spoil

[Makabriel]

Firstly, if a review is tagged as having spoilers (which you're generally pretty good about doing), then a person loses any right to be upset that you spoiled the movie for them. Actually, let me rephrase that, they can be as upset as they want to be, but they lose the right to complain about it and expect anyone to sympathize with them. Secondly, if someone genuinely wants to "know absolutely nothing" about a movie before going in, then why are they watching reviews in the first place? A review (generally) is there for when you're on the fence about something; if you're adamant about going in with absolutely no details, then it seems your mind is already made-up.

This.

It annoys the hell out of me people coming into Bob's threads for -every- review complaining that it has spoilers.
And thumbs up, Bob. Good post.

 

[Saetha]

I still don't get the 'Elsa is a lesbian' thing.

I don't think it's so much 'Elsa is a lesbian' as 'Elsa's transformation is a metaphor for coming out'. Which apparently devastates the countryside?

That and she's a Disney princess who didn't get a love interest, so of course she's a lesbian. Merida got the same treatment - not wanting to get married to a complete stranger at sixteen means you're a lesbian, apparently.

 

[JCAll]

Batroc the Leaper isn't a spoiler, he's a selling point.

 

[Tumedus]

http://www.wired.com/2011/08/spoilers-dont-spoil-anything/

I think getting upset about spoilers is one of those things that people have just decided is impolite and they are going to get upset about. It's like people obsessed with table manners getting upset that you cut more than one piece of meat at a time. But it's getting upset for the sake of getting upset without any real consideration of whether it has an impact on you or your enjoyment of the story (most of the time, it doesn't).

Now there are those reveals that do have a significant emotional impact. "I am your father", "I see dead people", "And like that... poof he's gone". Actual "twists" that greatly alter your perception of what preceded it. But, in all honesty, those are few and far between. Most of the plot devices called "twists" these days aren't really.

 

[Zontar]

http://www.wired.com/2011/08/spoilers-dont-spoil-anything/

I think getting upset about spoilers is one of those things that people have just decided is impolite and they are going to get upset about. It's like people obsessed with table manners getting upset that you cut more than one piece of meat at a time. But it's getting upset for the sake of getting upset without any real consideration of whether it has an impact on you or your enjoyment of the story (most of the time, it doesn't).

Now there are those reveals that do have a significant emotional impact. "I am your father", "I see dead people", "And like that... poof he's gone". Actual "twists" that greatly alter your perception of what preceded it. But, in all honesty, those are few and far between. Most of the plot devices called "twists" these days aren't really.

Couldn't agree with you more. If a movie or show or whatever has what most people consider a "spoiler" revealed to you before hand and you are upset, it's probably more a problem with the person upset or the work more then anything else.

Case in point: because of the week and a half release gap between Europe and North America I had most of the major parts of the plot for The Winter Soldier revealed to me before I entered. Did it effect my ability to enjoy the movie? Nope. In fact I was so into the plot I forgot most of what I'd been told.

Personally, I feel as though someone claiming a spoiler will ruin it for them is about the same as saying they won't be able to rewatch it.

 

[Azahul]

I still don't get the 'Elsa is a lesbian' thing. I don't have a problem with it, but I still just don't see where the idea arose from in the first place. If it makes you happy to interpret that it that way, fine by me, but I don't follow the train of reasoning that led to that particular interpretation.

I get where people are coming from with the 'Elsa is a lesbian'... thing, I think they're extremely wrong, since she comes off as far more asexual than anything, but I get it. Of course, since it's a Disney movie, I don't really pay attention to the characters' sexualities. They just don't factor in for me.
There was also that big falderall about the blonde guy in the sauna who everyone assumed was Oaken's boyfriend with no damn proof. Everyone has that one family friend who the family calls 'Aunt/Uncle X', who aren't related... and that was my read of the character, a family friend. People were extremely eager to read non-hetero into every character in the movie.

I don't think anyone (well, anyone working based on the evidence actually in the movie) believes that Elsa is literally homosexual. Most of the commentary I have heard/read online and discussed with friends doesn't make any judgement on whether the character of Elsa is gay within the movie. Instead, they point out that her personal story arc (and, obviously, the song "Let It Go") comes off as a metaphor for the experience many in-the-closet homosexuals experience.

The important part to understand there is the concept of metaphor. To take a random example, magic for Willow in Seasons 5 and 6 of Buffy is a pretty obvious metaphor for drug addiction. That doesn't make Willow a drug user in the universe. In the same way, no one I know feels that Elsa is gay in-universe beyond the "well, her sexuality isn't made explicit, so it's possible".

 

[putowtin]

I still don't get the 'Elsa is a lesbian' thing.

I don't think it's so much 'Elsa is a lesbian' as 'Elsa's transformation is a metaphor for coming out'. Which apparently devastates the countryside?

but seriously you can't go anywhere without spoilers, Bob always slaps a big SPOILER ALERT ahead of any review that's gonna feature the dreaded spoiler, and if you want to go and see a movie, read a book, play a game or watch a tv show without knowing the plot twists... don't click on a link that says SPOILER ALERT!

 

[elvor0]

I still don't get the 'Elsa is a lesbian' thing. I don't have a problem with it, but I still just don't see where the idea arose from in the first place. If it makes you happy to interpret that it that way, fine by me, but I don't follow the train of reasoning that led to that particular interpretation.

I get where people are coming from with the 'Elsa is a lesbian'... thing, I think they're extremely wrong, since she comes off as far more asexual than anything, but I get it. Of course, since it's a Disney movie, I don't really pay attention to the characters' sexualities. They just don't factor in for me.
There was also that big falderall about the blonde guy in the sauna who everyone assumed was Oaken's boyfriend with no damn proof. Everyone has that one family friend who the family calls 'Aunt/Uncle X', who aren't related... and that was my read of the character, a family friend. People were extremely eager to read non-hetero into every character in the movie.

It'a less of a case of "Here's-the-message-under-the-story-the-writer-is-sending" and more of "Here's-the-message-I-think-the-writer-intended". Some people like to crowbar in their own meanings into stories, regardless of if or what the author's intended meaning really is.

Elsa has something innate about her that she is told she has to keep hidden. She fears that if people find out, including her relatives, she will be hated, and indeed when she is 'outed' this happens. She then comes to terms with her power being a part of her, and she is accepted by her family and society, and can be openly herself.

I find the idea a bit awkward as a methaphor personally. Although I get the idea behind the resonance behind "hiding it away and then outing yourself" it feels a bit clunky when you take into account that Elsa had to hide her powers away because she almost killed Anna and her powers do indeed do a large amount of damage when they're unleashed. Not that I have any issue with gay people feeling a confidence boost from the film (that's obviously a good thing) or taking "Let it go" as an anthem, (it's a pretty stellar song), being gay isn't dangerous, wheras the ice powers were.

There was also that big falderall about the blonde guy in the sauna who everyone assumed was Oaken's boyfriend with no damn proof. Everyone has that one family friend who the family calls 'Aunt/Uncle X', who aren't related... and that was my read of the character, a family friend. People were extremely eager to read non-hetero into every character in the movie.

Yeah and of course, Oaken is supposed to be Swedish, presuming cultural crossover between the Swedish and Finnish,(quite likely given their shared history) being naked in the sauna with anyone is perfectly fine, as the sauna to the Finns isn't something sexual(you try getting it up in 80 degrees plus heat), it's just a place to go and relax, the Finns even hold business meetings in them. He /could've/ been Oakens husband/father to the kids, but it's equally possible he could've been a family member or even a friend.

 

[Lieju]

I find the idea a bit awkward as a methaphor personally. Although I get the idea behind the resonance behind "hiding it away and then outing yourself" it feels a bit clunky when you take into account that Elsa had to hide her powers away because she almost killed Anna and her powers do indeed do a large amount of damage when they're unleashed. Not that I have any issue with gay people feeling a confidence boost from the film (that's obviously a good thing) or taking "Let it go" as an anthem, (it's a pretty stellar song), being gay isn't dangerous, wheras the ice powers were.

Yes, it has the same problem as Xmen as a metaphor for homosexuality/some other minority.
However, her powers aren't inherently bad, or even dangerous, her family just didn't know how to deal with it.
And more importantly, 'They're afraid of me and hate me because I'm special and better than they' is a very appealing fantasy, especially for anyone who is suffering from discrimination, and having self-esteem issues over it.

Not even discrimination, just anyone who feels alienated. (So the majority of teenagers for example)

 

[rofltehcat]

I'm watching Bob's stuff for his insight and his impressions about a movie/series/whatever. It also helps with determining if a movie actually interests me. His past policy regarding spoilers has always seemed reasonable to me, so I don't really know why some people might feel like his videos may be revealing too much about the plot.

If someone is genuinely concerned about spoilers they really shouldn't watch any of his stuff and instead only check Rotten Tomatoes or imdb. How in hell do people expect to be both very well informed while not having anything spoiled about the plot at the same time? I still think Bob's reviews are exactly how they should be, at least it seems to me that it strikes a very good middle ground.

 

[elvor0]

I still don't get the 'Elsa is a lesbian' thing. I don't have a problem with it, but I still just don't see where the idea arose from in the first place.

It's mostly projection really.

I recall there was one conservative critique who saw "Let it Go" as a woman embracing conservative values against the pressures of liberalism (or something ridiculous like that).

What? That's crazy. I mean yeah, personal interpretation and all, but wouldn't embracing who you are and shouting it from the rooftops be more of a liberalism motif? In that you have the liberty to do so? She becomes comfortable with who she is, and in the end is accepted for it. Afterall, a large number of conservative politicians are against...certain people being comfortable with who they are and shouting it from the rooftops.

 

[CelestDaer]

It'a less of a case of "Here's-the-message-under-the-story-the-writer-is-sending" and more of "Here's-the-message-I-think-the-writer-intended". Some people like to crowbar in their own meanings into stories, regardless of if or what the author's intended meaning really is.

So, I remember a Creative Writing class I took in college... everyone had to write and present a story over the course of the class. I caught so many presenters up by pointing out imagery they apparently didn't even realize they'd put into their work. It's really easy to add imagery that means something to someone else without doing it on purpose.

 

[twm1709]

People are incredibly overzealous with spoilers lately. This very website had an article about game of thrones recently that ended with threats of BANNING if some spoiler was so much as hinted at. Chill out people, it's just a tv show. And if shock is the only thing a show has going for it, then it probably isn't all that great anyway (not that GOT is in that situation, mind you).

 

[scw55]

It'a less of a case of "Here's-the-message-under-the-story-the-writer-is-sending" and more of "Here's-the-message-I-think-the-writer-intended". Some people like to crowbar in their own meanings into stories, regardless of if or what the author's intended meaning really is.

So, I remember a Creative Writing class I took in college... everyone had to write and present a story over the course of the class. I caught so many presenters up by pointing out imagery they apparently didn't even realize they'd put into their work. It's really easy to add imagery that means something to someone else without doing it on purpose.

Imagery can also be added subconsciously as well.

I notice in my artwork it's very colourful. And I always wonder if it's because my artwork is where I "let it out". The rest of the time I'm a dry and quiet person. But that (as you said) could just be my interpretation of it, and the colour has nothing to do with me besides, "Me done lots of colourful artwork".

 

[elvor0]

What? That's crazy. I mean yeah, personal interpretation and all, but wouldn't embracing who you are and shouting it from the rooftops be more of a liberalism motif? In that you have the liberty to do so? She becomes comfortable with who she is, and in the end is accepted for it. Afterall, a large number of conservative politicians are against...certain people being comfortable with who they are and shouting it from the rooftops.

I'll try and find the article.

I'm pretty sure it was brought to my attention from a post by Escapist poster Bara_no_Hime [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/profiles/view/Bara_no_Hime].

EDIT: Meh can't seem to find the post but I did find this [http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2014/02/frozen-love.html]. I'm not sure if it was the article I was referencing (never looked at it myself) but it is a positive conservative interpretation.

huh. That's actually not what I expected. I guess I'm so used to the word conservatism in a political sense, that I forget sometimes it's actually a word that can be used in other ways. Ignoring the "love God" elements, it's actually an article I mostly agree with, it raises some good points, doesn't actually (as I expected) mention anything homosexual, as is more about accepting the point that we should treat our friends, family and lovers with respect and maintain a bond that should be present in relationships in general, that a lot of people have forgotten these days. If anything it's an extremely good argument against the growing Jeremy Kyle generation, it raises no umbrage with casual sex, but if you are going to raise a family and have a proper relationship, make sure you do actually love each other and have that bond that makes things better for all parties.

I guess I would've been wise not to jump to conclusions.

 

[BehattedWanderer]

I actually enjoy when you do spoilers and discussions on important events in movies. If it's a movie I absolutely want to see (any of the Avengers fare, Pacific Rim, Maleficent, Ender's Game, or the Lego Movie, for example), then I wait to watch the review until after I see it. If it's a movie I don't have any interest in seeing opening night/weekend, then I'll watch the review to see if there's anything discussed that sounds interesting enough to go watch it. Sometimes this pays off, like when you discussed Splice or the Raid, and it leads to me finding a movie I loved that I wouldn't have otherwise heard or cared about. Othertimes, it just leads me to seeing a movie that, whatever interesting points of discussion might arise, makes me wonder how far down those points are buried or exactly how much needed to be read into because of how utterly and insanely boring the movie was.

Though, I occasionally wish you'd do concurrent reviews of two big movies that come out on the same day. I still regret seeing The Expendables over Scott Pilgrim. Ugh.

 

[Olas]

I think you just have to ask yourself if knowing a certain plot detail before viewing the movie/show will actually have a negative impact on the experience or not. Obviously this is subjective to some extent, but not so subjective that we can't form a general consensus about it.

The thing I don't get about spoilers, which MovieBob doesn't really go into here, is the idea of an expiration date on spoilers. I don't think that any work, no matter how old, is okay to spoil simply because of it's age. Nobody can say that they've read/seen/played even 1% of the fictional stories that currently exist in the world in one medium or another, so how can we expect everyone to be relatively caught up on everything? Somewhere out there there's a person who doesn't know the twist at the end of The Empire Strikes Back and I wouldn't want to spoil it for them if I ever thought they were going to watch the movie, even if the movie is over 30 years old.

 

[Peaceful Winter]

If you want to do a good review of a movie , game , TV show , etc , you have to spoil at least some things , otherwise is not a true review.