Tokyo's "Anti-Anime" Bill Sparks Convention Wars

RvLeshrac

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Oct 2, 2008
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Terramax said:
Kalezian said:
crepesack said:
Good for them. Art is art, regardless how dubious such a claim is.
exactly, though I still think its weird that people like looking at drawings of 16 year olds with size double F boobs.
Now I know you're smarter than that and you know it goes much deeper.

Anime/ cartoons shown to children are capable of giving the wrong messages, especially in high quantity.

As an example, I've recently been watching the 'Oh! My Goddess' series on youtube and it's simply stupid what some of the messages of the story are. How women like Belledandy are expected to enjoy being a slave to Keiichi and lick his arse in order to be the subject of men's desires and attention.

The show constantly sexualises the women, many times clearly for fan service, and gives the impression to younger kids that women ought be the ones doing all the hard work for the men.

I've watched plenty of anime with my younger sister, including violent and sexual ones like Berserk, El Hazard and Ninja Scroll, but I refuse to watch this with her because I don't want her getting the impression women like Belledandy are what she ought to be like.
Really? Just anime and cartoons? Not faerie tales like Sleeping Beauty and Cinderella? How about live-action films such as... well... most every big-budget title from the last 30 years?
 

Hedberger

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"this is like if Activision, EA, Ubisoft, Take-Two, Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony all jointly decided they weren't going to show up at E3 anymore."

And nothing of value was lost.
 

RvLeshrac

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Aby_Z said:
Cuy said:
Aby_Z said:
Cuy said:
But still those silly japs don't give enough of a fuck to complain or protest or whatever. I swear, those guys at 2chan are useless.
Are you trying to correlate 2ch with all of Japan? Really?
No, but I am saying they're a huge part of the people who like anime and manga that also live in Japan. If they all stood up for their cause they would be able to, most likely, change shit. But they're not even trying, they're pussies.
That's idiotic. For one, being an Otaku in Japan is incredibly far from being a good thing. You're pretty much the scum of the earth to most people if like that. For some reason, people in America actually want to be called Otakus. Funny, huh?

Secondly, nothing they do would matter. Everyone who supports this bill is completely ignoring any opposition to it. There have been plenty of petitions, but they're all being ignored.
2ch *IS* most of Japan. It is nothing like 4chan.
 

cerebus23

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Well this should cut down the loli jokes for anime :p

Lalusche you made the loli cry!

Some of this stuff is way over the top, i mean you get like 10 yo girls in love with the 20 some male character, tho many of the better animes seem to just use it for comic effect or blow it off entirely. The offensive scene in evangalleon tho i did not find all that offensive they were two teen age kids and it seemed in tone of the whole crazy story this introverted boy that repressed himself so much just snapping at the sight if a hospital ridden girls boobs, just seemed to fit the story and was not out of place wildly. Nor was it all that sexy it was just like wow this kids got issues.

Much of hentai is just out and out grotesque tho with the crap they do.

Lets not forget that this adult anime over here is more for kids in japan, so they have a bit more right to treat this stuff as being targeted at young kids. Since in fact it is aimed at a younger audience over there where here it is a teen or mature audience late at night stoner thing.
 

Fensfield

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Bill also covers such things as homosexual relationships/marriage, incest, and so forth.

It isn't just the depiction of minors, it affects things the arts have traditionally been considered the right place to explore. /That/'s why the corporations are up in arms. Yes, depiction of minors are a significant part, but it also clouts things that people presently hail as works of art.

Just wanted to be sure and say as much. Also, my understanding of this piece of quite old news, from reading around, is the online distribution and publications methods are unaffected. In other words, all those raving about it finally hitting the 'sick hentai' industry.. well yeah it doesn't. Basically the law makes no bloody sense from a great many angles, and despite being passed is still getting constitutional challenges hurled at it.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Niagro said:
If people are twisted enough to like really oversexualised minors in sed sexual way, that's not good.

If the laws to prohibit this also end up constricting production of anime for those who are not like this, that's not good either.

I suppose we'll just have to wait and see how this turns out.
Let me make a favorite counter-example. Do you think only twisted people are fans of shows like "Buffy The Vampire Slayer"? Now, keep in mind this is a mainstream show that was massively successful and made Joss Whedon the celebrity creator he currently is.

In "Buffy" we had a 15 or 16 year old girl getting it on with a 30-something (actually hundreds of year old) Vampire as a major plot point. Remember this all happened while she was in high school and there was time for him to turn evil, be defeated in a season finale, return with a soul, be kept locked up by her as a beast for a while, leave for his own spin off season, and then make a return apperance for another season finale when Buffy was finally graduating High School. I don't know for sure what age she was off the top of my head, but she sure as heck wasn't an adult.

The reason why "Buffy" is considered acceptable is because it's a work of pure fantasy, real girls are not like Buffy who is a super hero. Our real world morality doesn't easily apply to a situation like that, if we had real super heroes our logic in dealing with them in situations like this would be differant. I mean if the fate of the world can rest in your hands periodically, you can probably determine when you can go to bed with someone on your own.

I also look towards movies series like "Porky's" and "American Pie" as other examples. Like it or not, teens having sex is part of growing up and learning about life. In general I tend to only have issues when you have adults having sex with kids. I'm one of those people who feel teen on teen stuff is fine if done responsibility, and one of those guys who feel that the proper thing to do (especially seeing as we won't ever stop it) is to distribute condoms and such and put more of a focus on safe sex, rather than trying to force hard core abstinance. Of course this doesn't cover the Buffy thing (Angel was not a Teenager), that falls under fantasy as I explained above.

The thing about this law is that it's not going to affect any of the really creepy stuff that people mention as being what Japan needs to clean up. That isn't what this law does. Those works are still defined as pornography. Urotsukidoji, La Blue Girl, Queen Of Darkness, Bible Black, and other well know titles are all adult rated porno over ther just like here. As long as they keep that rating and continue to be distributed as porn, nothing changes.

What this law actually does is targets fantasy series, things like "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" where you might have sexy teenage super heroes of one sort of another carrying on relationships during the series. The arguement that a 15 or 16 year old Buffy-type is too sexy and should be illegal even if there is no hardcore porn actually involved.

In general, the main run of Anime doesn't get much worse than the general run of comics books in the US. A lot of T&A, and some implied sex going on behind the scenes. People who complain about this stuff in anime are pretty naive about media in general, and even what is permissable within a "T"/"PG-13" rating given how few producers push the limits properly. Some might remember that in the "classic" movie "Scream" there is even a joke made about this where the protaganist's boyfriend wants to have sex with her, and says "no, but I can give you the PG-13 version" before flashing her tits as one of many self-aware jokes. The point is that what is being actually targeted are things that have been within permissable limits in both Japan and the USA for years.... again as I pointed out, the way this law seems to read, the stuff that pushes the limits and makes Japanese animation infamous is going to be untouched. As long as they keep slapping that adult rating on the DVDS, Tentecle Rape is going to continue to thrive. People who seem to think hard core hentai is released on TV for children over there, are really uninformed about Japan, right up there with fanboys who go in the opposite direction and seem to think adults in Japan prefer to read Manga over newspapers and knowing what is actually going on in the world/their area. :p
 

NeutralDrow

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Good, I was hoping for something like this.

Managed to get some of the big-names to protest, too.

Hardcore_gamer said:
Not that being a homophobe is a good thing or anything, but I can only see this benefiting anime.

Perhaps now half of anime villains won't be a bunch of extremely feminine men whom you can easily mistake for girls at time.
...I'm not sure which question to ask first. In no particular order:

Why would you think that would happen?
Why is it a problem now?
If "half of all anime villains" are like that, why did you only present one example?

cerebus23 said:
Well this should cut down the loli jokes for anime :p
Actually, I'd think the jokes would increase. After all, it's not touching actual lolicon.
 

fates_puppet13

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the govenment are overreacting
kids aren't going to look at it and see porn
they're not going to understand it untill they're old enough that noone cares
 

DarkRyter

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Jordan_17 said:
black-magic said:
This law is moronic, art is art and you can't censor it.

Good on them for fighting back.
I would hardly call "Erotic depictions of minors" art, I prefer to call it "Sick".
Censorship is a greater evil.
 

Midnight Crossroads

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Goddammit, Japanese government. Don't you have more important things to be doing? Stop hanging out with Australia, they're a bad influence.
 

LeonLethality

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Awesome, good on those taking a stand against this stupid law. I'm glad to see they are not taking this lying down.
 

Leg End

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Jordan_17 said:
black-magic said:
This law is moronic, art is art and you can't censor it.

Good on them for fighting back.
I would hardly call "Erotic depictions of minors" art, I prefer to call it "Sick".
I prefer to call it art. :p
 

mireko

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Hardcore_gamer said:
Fronzel said:
Because art always flourishes under wide, strict government regulation.

I mean, look at what a cultural giant China is.
Why do people keep calling anime "art"?

I don't hear anyone calling X-Men art, or Spider-man, besides the comic book geeks reading them.

Don't get me wrong, just like movies anime films can be considered art. But only anime that's actually worthy of being called art. Just like conventional films an anime isn't automatically art just for being anime, just the same as a video film of a man puking on the floor for 50 min isn't art just for being a film. Its the content that matters, not the medium.

Its also for this same reason that I dislike it when people try to call video games art, again just like films not every video game is an art piece just for being a video game.
I disagree, anything made to express or encourage a thought or emotion is art. Art is not a measure of quality, it's just what it is. It doesn't have to be good.

I mean, what would your definition be? Would a product need a certain level of quality to be considered art? How would that work, exactly?

EDIT: Figured I should at least have something on-topic in my post.

Other people have formulated the problems with this bill better than I can, so instead I'd like to point out that the guy behind this bill, Shintaro Ishihara, is fucking crazy.

For example, he denies that the Rape of Nanking ever happened. And that "old women who live after they have lost their reproductive function are useless and are committing a sin". And that gay people are "deficient". Really.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shintaro_Ishihara
 

Jonci

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Hardcore_gamer said:
Fronzel said:
Because art always flourishes under wide, strict government regulation.

I mean, look at what a cultural giant China is.
Why do people keep calling anime "art"?

I don't hear anyone calling X-Men art, or Spider-man, besides the comic book geeks reading them.

Don't get me wrong, just like movies anime films can be considered art. But only anime that's actually worthy of being called art. Just like conventional films an anime isn't automatically art just for being anime, just the same as a video film of a man puking on the floor for 50 min isn't art just for being a film. Its the content that matters, not the medium.

Its also for this same reason that I dislike it when people try to call video games art, again just like films not every video game is an art piece just for being a video game.
If someone took a creative process to imagine and create it, why wouldn't it be considered art. Not all art is good and can be immature, but it's a creative work regardless. Would you tell some five year old that drew a picture of her house that it isn't art because it isn't refined enough?
 

Bluesclues

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Hardcore_gamer said:
Fronzel said:
Because art always flourishes under wide, strict government regulation.

I mean, look at what a cultural giant China is.
Why do people keep calling anime "art"?

I don't hear anyone calling X-Men art, or Spider-man, besides the comic book geeks reading them.

Don't get me wrong, just like movies anime films can be considered art. But only anime that's actually worthy of being called art. Just like conventional films an anime isn't automatically art just for being anime, just the same as a video film of a man puking on the floor for 50 min isn't art just for being a film. Its the content that matters, not the medium.

Its also for this same reason that I dislike it when people try to call video games art, again just like films not every video game is an art piece just for being a video game.
...You realize what you're saying, right?

That's like if I were to say orchestra pieces shouldn't be considered music because there are no vocals in them.

Wikipedia definition said:
Art is the product or process of deliberately arranging symbolic elements in a way that influences and affects one or more of the senses, emotions, and intellect. It encompasses a diverse range of human activities, creations, and modes of expression, including music, literature, film, photography, sculpture, and paintings. The meaning of art is explored in a branch of philosophy known as aesthetics, and even disciplines such as history and psychoanalysis analyze its relationship with humans and generations.
Honestly, you really need to start doing some research before you go spouting your misinformation.