Tomadachi Life Conspiracy: Because Nintendo Just can't catch a break these days

Anthony Corrigan

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Sorry but compared to some of the types of patches and upgrades that companies put out to fix or improve games, removing a gender check is simple and why shouldn't they be pissed off about being ignored again. Why is it LGBQT people are supposed to sit down and shut up while Homophobes get away with things like this:

http://www.officialplaystationmagazine.co.uk/2012/03/06/mass-effect-3-backlash-why-gamers-should-be-ashamed/

Yes there were legitimate issues with EA and the way that Mass effect 3 was handled, having a gay love interest WASN'T ONE OF THEM.

Actually the fact that Bioware and EA are actually thinking about LGBQT people in there products like the sims, mass effect and dragon age is one of the few redeeming features of EA which overall is quite a dodgy company

Actually when searching for controversy over dragon age origins having a homosexual character I found an artical on a complaint for Dragon Age 2 and the response from Bioware

The romances in the game are not for ?the straight male gamer?. They?re for everyone. We have a lot of fans, many of whom are neither straight nor male, and they deserve no less attention. We have good numbers, after all, on the number of people who actually used similar sorts of content in DAO and thus don?t need to resort to anecdotal evidence to support our idea that their numbers are not insignificant? and that?s ignoring the idea that they don?t have just as much right to play the kind of game they wish as anyone else. The ?rights? of anyone with regards to a game are murky at best, but anyone who takes that stance must apply it equally to both the minority as well as the majority. The majority has no inherent ?right? to get more options than anyone else.

More than that, I would question anyone deciding they speak for ?the straight male gamer? just as much as someone claiming they speak for ?all RPG fans?, ?all female fans? or even ?all gay fans?. You don?t. If you wish to express your personal desires, then do so. I have no doubt that any opinion expressed on these forums is shared by many others, but since none of them have elected a spokesperson you?re better off not trying to be one. If your attempt is to convince BioWare developers, I can tell you that you do in fact make your opinion less convincing by doing so.

And if there is any doubt why such an opinion might be met with hostility, it has to do with privilege. You can write it off as ?political correctness? if you wish, but the truth is that privilege always lies with the majority. They?re so used to being catered to that they see the lack of catering as an imbalance. They don?t see anything wrong with having things set up to suit them, what?s everyone?s fuss all about? That?s the way it should be, any everyone else should be used to not getting what they want.

The truth is that making a romance available for both genders is far less costly than creating an entirely new one. Does it create some issues of implementation? Sure? but anything you try on this front is going to have its issues, and inevitably you?ll always leave someone out in the cold. In this case, are all straight males left out in the cold? Not at all. There are romances available for them just the same as anyone else. Not all straight males require that their content be exclusive, after all, and you can see that even on this thread.

Would I do it again? I don?t know. I doubt I would have Anders make the first move again? at the time, I thought that requiring all romances to have Hawke initiate everything was the unrealistic part. Even if someone decides that this makes everyone ?unrealistically? bisexual, however, or they can?t handle the idea that the character might be bisexual if they were another PC? I don?t see that as a big concern, to be honest. Romances are never one-size-fits-all, and even for those who don?t mind the sexuality issue there?s no guarantee they?ll find a character they even want to romance. That?s why romances are optional content. It?s such a personal issue that we?ll never be able to please everyone. The very best we can do is give everyone a little bit of choice, and that?s what we tried here.

And the person who says that the only way to please them is to restrict options for others is, if you ask me, the one who deserves it least. And that?s my opinion, expressed as politely as possible.

BioWare, David Gaider,
http://www.nomorelost.org/2011/03/25/straight-male-gamer-told-to-get-over-it-by-bioware/

(one thing I did pick out which was kind of creepy was that they know how many people romanced which characters in DA:O, what the hell are you doing spying on peoples consoles\computers EA????)
 

PoolCleaningRobot

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xaszatm said:
Even then, YOU CAN ALREADY DO THAT! Despite the game having a female and male "set", every mii can use any body or clothing. You can have females with beards and "man" clothing and you can have males with dresses. While not the ideal solution, you can already do that. Hell, you can even have male voices on females and female voices on males! This isn't the issue. The issue is the gender thing itself.
When you put it like that, I don't see why people are complaining. Members of the LGBTQ should know better than anyone that gender is more than your sex organs and your label. Mover over, you don't even see the models genitals so if you make a female model completely male, then what's the difference? Clearly Nintendo isn't homophobic enough to stop people from making Transgender characters for shits and giggles
 

xaszatm

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Ultratwinkie said:
xaszatm said:
Ultratwinkie said:
xaszatm said:
RatherDull said:
Casual Shinji said:
So yet another "if you're not with us, you're against us" situation.

I can see that for the LGBTQ's out there it must be frustrating to be ignored by default, but to turn it into 'Nintendon't like gays' seems a bit extreme. Though I don't know what the culture inside Nintendo is, they are a traditional Japanese company after all.

Anyway, seems like a lot of fuss over a simple game. The dreaded Microscope of Equality spares nothing it seems.
Issues like racism, sexism and LGBTQ are all fighting an uphill battle. And people who are indifferent to it are part of the problem.
You are right, in a sense. Nintendo is being a part of the problem by forgetting about homosexual relationships. Yet the solution to every problem is not using the bloody hammer. Not everything is a nail. The purpose of Miiquality was not to scream hate upon Nintendo, but to make Nintendo realize that there was a problem. And guess what? They are realizing that this is a problem, they realized a while ago in Japan! They haven't changed anything in the game itself because the coding wouldn't that simple. Yet, ignoring that and Miiquality's goals, people have started turning Nintendo into the next Chick Fill'a. Ignorance is different from hatred. You fight hatred with hatred. You fight ignorance with knowledge. When you face ignorance with hatred, you risk Nintendo defending its actions in retaliation, which is the last hing anyone needs.
Modding in gays isn't that big of a deal. Its a female entity that can't have kids and uses a male model set. Add some restrictions to the dialogue flags to not use any lines that reference a female, and its basically done with. Same animations, same everything.

If a modder can develop a script to turn list-based dumb containers into dynamic smart containers on an ancient engine, nintendo can add a simple gay guy.
Look, this game is based entirely around relationships. Unlike most other simulated games, there is nothing BUT relationships for this game. There are a multitude of conversations coded into the game. That's not exactly something a modder can to with a flick of his wrist.

Even then, YOU CAN ALREADY DO THAT! Despite the game having a female and male "set", every mii can use any body or clothing. You can have females with beards and "man" clothing and you can have males with dresses. While not the ideal solution, you can already do that. Hell, you can even have male voices on females and female voices on males! This isn't the issue. The issue is the gender thing itself.
Oh right because a simple call system is sooooo advanced. Not like we haven't had dialogue in the last 20 years. Or branching dialogue tied to gender and race for over 15.

Its not some high level stuff. Modders do this all the time. Same with model swapping.

If you want high end modding, look to the overhauls for skyrim. Better yet, look up dynamic things. If a teen with spare time can do that, Nintendo can change around some flags for the dialogue.
Look, if all you're going to do is whine and complain about how easy something is, why have a discussion at all? If there was an "easy" solution, don't you think Nintendo would have done it by now? But no, NO! Instead of doing what we are supposed to be doing, getting someone on the right path via knowledge and understanding, here we stand blindly attacking anyone we perceive to be wrong due to an its Us against Them mentality. The LGBQT community is getting dangerously close to the same actions as the very bigots they face.

Nintendo HAS understood the problem with not including homosexual relationships in Tomadachi Life and ignoring homosexual relationships in general. The LBGQT community on the other hand, has failed and outright denied the problems in fixing said problems within the game itself. The 3DS isn't a PC. Nintendo is one of the few video game companies that doesn't make PCs. As such, it is significantly harder to outright change the data. Not impossible, mind you, but harder. If you want proof, see the hassle with any Pokemon patches and the Pokemon bank. To change flags (which Nintendo doesn't use, the coding was designed with something else in mind) would to take time to work on the project, but that won't happen.

Now, you need to realize why Nintendo won't dedicate time to said project: The project has been finished. The guys who made the game (which, by the way, was made more than a year ago) have moved on to other projects. Nintendo of America simply translated the game. Look, a modder has time to dedicate himself to make mods, that's what he does. But a programmer has more important things to do than to go back to a previous game and re-work the entire system.
 

Qizx

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Feb 21, 2011
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PoolCleaningRobot said:
xaszatm said:
Even then, YOU CAN ALREADY DO THAT! Despite the game having a female and male "set", every mii can use any body or clothing. You can have females with beards and "man" clothing and you can have males with dresses. While not the ideal solution, you can already do that. Hell, you can even have male voices on females and female voices on males! This isn't the issue. The issue is the gender thing itself.
When you put it like that, I don't see why people are complaining. Members of the LGBTQ should know better than anyone that gender is more than your sex organs and your label. Mover over, you don't even see the models genitals so if you make a female model completely male, then what's the difference? Clearly Nintendo isn't homophobic enough to stop people from making Transgender characters for shits and giggles
People are going to rage and get mad regardless of what happens. People are going to get mad at Nintendo if they allow same sex relationships because they "wouldn't be special enough" or some BS. I'm all for equal rights for everyone but this is absurd, it's along with people who get mad with "why does this game only have male/female options? Where's the 'I was born a human but think I'm a panther' option?"
EDIT FOR CLARITY: I do think they should make it so you can have homosexual relations, however I don't think they should get this absurd backlash for not.
 

Someone Depressing

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Japan, despite the sheer flooding of their cartoon porn marketed to 13 year old girls, isn't exactly against homosexuality, but not entirely with it. A survey a year or two ago revealed that only aproximately 56% of the population was for homosexual marriage. So, including it explicitly would probably provoke a lot of people for "exposing their children to such filth" and whatnot.

But, leaving it in, but not exactly adressing it, probably would have been the more mature thing to do. But it's been done, and there's probably not much that could be done about it now, so whatever.

As for the "Nintendo r evil!!11!!!1!!11" aspect, that's just the Internet and news blowing up like it has and always will.
 

Church185

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Ultratwinkie said:
Oh right because a simple call system is sooooo advanced. Not like we haven't had dialogue in the last 20 years. Or branching dialogue tied to gender and race for over 15.

Its not some high level stuff. Modders do this all the time. Same with model swapping.

If you want high end modding, look to the overhauls for skyrim. Better yet, look up dynamic things. If a teen with spare time can do that, Nintendo can change around some flags for the dialogue.
Save your breath, it really isn't worth arguing with some of the Nintendo fans on this site.

Nintendo can't afford not to include certain parts of the gaming market at this point. They'll probably end up releasing a patch or make a statement about including the option in future titles.
 

PoolCleaningRobot

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Qizx said:
People are going to rage and get mad regardless of what happens. People are going to get mad at Nintendo if they allow same sex relationships because they "wouldn't be special enough" or some BS. I'm all for equal rights for everyone but this is absurd, it's along with people who get mad with "why does this game only have male/female options? Where's the 'I was born a human but think I'm a panther' option?"
You might want to take into account that being born intersex is more common than you think. And it's not the fault of homosexuals that they're continually marginalized by the majority and apathetic people don't understand that marrying the one they love is right they take for granted

And if you get all your opinions of the LGBTQ community from ridiculous Tumblr posts, you might want to look elsewhere
EDIT FOR CLARITY: I do think they should make it so you can have homosexual relations, however I don't think they should get this absurd backlash for not.
Double edit for clarity: if you think this issue is the same other Internet bullshit, then I agree. This would be just as dumb as the people complaining about the gay relationships in Mass Effect
 

Qizx

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Feb 21, 2011
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PoolCleaningRobot said:
Qizx said:
People are going to rage and get mad regardless of what happens. People are going to get mad at Nintendo if they allow same sex relationships because they "wouldn't be special enough" or some BS. I'm all for equal rights for everyone but this is absurd, it's along with people who get mad with "why does this game only have male/female options? Where's the 'I was born a human but think I'm a panther' option?"
You might want to take into account that being born intersex is more common than you think. And it's not the fault of homosexuals that they're continually marginalized by the majority and apathetic people don't understand that marrying the one they love is right they take for granted

And if you get all your opinions of the LGBTQ community from ridiculous Tumblr posts, you might want to look elsewhere
EDIT FOR CLARITY: I do think they should make it so you can have homosexual relations, however I don't think they should get this absurd backlash for not.
Double edit for clarity: if you think this issue is the same other Internet bullshit, then I agree. This would be just as dumb as the people complaining about the gay relationships in Mass Effect
Oh I know it's more common than most people think, however if someone is born intersex they can just pick the sex the identify as... Doesn't really need to have an option specifically for them? Mostly because it already takes a lot of time to make that (Saints Row having the gender slider was pretty bitchin though). I also think the benefit/cost ratio isn't in favor of it. I know I'm probably showing off all my hetero male cis white privileges here...

To the edits: I think that the internet likes getting all raged up over smaller issues. THERE ARE SERIOUS issues still out there, gay people unable to marry, women being treated like property, etc. going on and people get all SJW over things like this. That's what rustles my jimmies.
 

ayvee

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This comparison seems to come up a lot lately, but really, if the game was coded such that only characters with shared skin tones could be in relationships, people would flip out. And they would be right in doing so.

But since this is a gay thing it has to be about an agenda or something.
 

Dragonbums

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maxben said:
Because of course gays don't have families.
Never claimed that.



I don't see why responsible gay couples and their children must be subject to that filth! Sarcasm aside, I hope that you understand that your claim is part of the problem.

You do understand that America is only one of very few countries that see homosexuals as at the very least people right? In other parts of the world it is still A O-fucking-Kay to lynch/burn/beat up people for even exhibiting the signs of a gay person. So for a lot of the families in the world that is a fucking truth.

Anyhow, since Japan is relatively backwards on most social issues from race to sex I don't doubt that Nintendo is just not comfortable with homosexuality. I have no proof of that but it wouldn't surprise me. Sony is likely the same.

Your accusing me of making shitty claims and the you go on to make a shitty claim yourself.

How is Japan backwards when it comes to most social issues? I can understand race- but that literally comes with being a largely single demographic with very little mixing. Oddly enough though Nintendo has incorporated a lot more black people into their games over the years than the Western market does. Two (that number depends on what version you have.)of the gym leaders in B/W is black, in B/W 2 the Champion was black, and in X and Y ANOTHER gym leader is black. That's not to mention that the past 3 Elite 4 champions have been women and nobody has gone after Nintendo to do those things. They just did it. Hell FE Awakening even had two very prominent black characters- Flavia and Bastion. Nobody fucking questioned it, and nobody cried "shoehorned" either. Not bad for a country and a company where demographics other than Japanese make up only 1-4% of the entire population.

Meanwhile in the United States we have suits telling devs they can't make their characters women, or they can't put them in the front of the box art (something else Japan literally has no problems with.) Can't add more than one ethnic person per game unless people will question why they "exist" (because people other than white need a reason to actually be that ethnicity) so on and so forth.

Is that to say Japan doesn't have it's own issues? No.

But we are pretty fucking backwards (and hypocritical) ourselves when it comes to representing in games. Look how many people threw a ***** fit when Dragon Age had the audacity to make any player homosexual if someone so chooses. An option that you can ignore if your straight is still considered shoehorned. Meanwhile Japan itself has no problems making games like this on a yearly basis.
 

Dragonbums

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Dragonbums said:
I'm very fucking sure they have nothing against gay people.
Why do people feel the need to bend over backwards to protect Nintendo? You honestly have no more clue than the people you're complaining about how they feel about gay people, so isn't it a double standard to have a go at them, then insert your own assertions?

Well for one it's been clarified that the glitch patch had nothing to do with fixing the "mistake" that you can ship two males together to have a baby.

Secondly it's like somebody said above "Your either against or for". I'm not bending over backwards for Nintendo on anything. I remember when people were talking about porting the game over here that fans of the series who had a Japanese copy had noted that for a very long while now you couldn't romance gay couples anyway. Why? I don't fucking know. But I highly doubt it's because Nintendo personally have something against gay people.

This is also the same company (at least Japan wise) that had two pretty visible characters in Animal Crossing who were male and female respectively but acted like the opposite gender. (I don't want to say if they were queer or not because I'm not exactly sure on that.) Hell that same game regardless of if your a boy or a girl you can wear anything you want. Men can wear dresses and flowers and none of the villagers will think of you worse for it. And it's not like Animal Crossing is lowbrow either. As we all know it's pretty damn popular.

So sorry that me having a different opinion about the situation is apparently "bending over" to the company in question. Or did you want me to agree like everyone else and go attacking Nintendo about a situation that's been around in the series for who knows how long, and the patch that caused the controversy itself had nothing to fucking do with the glitch where you can romance two male Mii characters.
 

Casual Shinji

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Casual Shinji said:
So yet another "if you're not with us, you're against us" situation.
Who said that, exactly?
I can see that for the LGBTQ's out there it must be frustrating to be ignored by default, but to turn it into 'Nintendon't like gays' seems a bit extreme. Though I don't know what the culture inside Nintendo is, they are a traditional Japanese company after all.
Why cast stones if you don't know what's going on, then? Especially if you yourself are talking about them being a "traditional" Japanese company?

I doubt you like being marginalised any more than gays do, even if it's "tradition."
Unless new information came out where they took a stance against any LGBTQ-ness being in their game, this seems more like Nintendo being Nintendo; An old fashioned company with old fashioned ideals. It's a stupid situation, but I think it stems more from naivety than outright malice. I'm sure during the developement the concept of players having non-hetero relations never even came up.

Nintendo have kind of been stuck in their ways for a while now, and with this game it seems to seriously bite them in the ass.
 

Dragonbums

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Casual Shinji said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
Casual Shinji said:
So yet another "if you're not with us, you're against us" situation.
Who said that, exactly?
I can see that for the LGBTQ's out there it must be frustrating to be ignored by default, but to turn it into 'Nintendon't like gays' seems a bit extreme. Though I don't know what the culture inside Nintendo is, they are a traditional Japanese company after all.
Why cast stones if you don't know what's going on, then? Especially if you yourself are talking about them being a "traditional" Japanese company?

I doubt you like being marginalised any more than gays do, even if it's "tradition."
Unless new information came out where they took a stance against any LGBTQ-ness being in their game, this seems more like Nintendo being Nintendo; An old fashioned company with old fashioned ideals. It's a stupid situation, but I think it stems more from naivety than outright malice. I'm sure during the developement the concept of players having non-hetero relations never even came up.

Nintendo have kind of been stuck in their ways for a while now, and with this game it seems to seriously bite them in the ass.
Except that this game is quite old in terms of development anyway and is just getting a translation port. Animal Crossing came out after this game and they allow players to dress in clothing of the opposite sex and have two very visible NPC's who are of one gender, but act and dress like the complete opposite. So it's clear that they are slowly fixing it. Granted I'm not exactly sure why they are considered stuck in their ways when Bioware can't even do the same thing without people pointing and yelling that they are with the "PC crowd" and shoehorning homosexuals down our throats. Maybe Nintendo knows the American audience a lot more than we like to admit in that category.
 

Casual Shinji

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Dragonbums said:
Except that this game is quite old in terms of development anyway and is just getting a translation port. Animal Crossing came out after this game and they allow players to dress in clothing of the opposite sex and have two very visible NPC's who are of one gender, but act and dress like the complete opposite. So it's clear that they are slowly fixing it. Granted I'm not exactly sure why they are considered stuck in their ways when Bioware can't even do the same thing without people pointing and yelling that they are with the "PC crowd" and shoehorning homosexuals down our throats. Maybe Nintendo knows the American audience a lot more than we like to admit in that category.
Bioware gets criticized mainly for making the relationships revolve around sex, not the inclusion of non-hetero relations.

Nintendo has always been in a bubble. This has given them that unique indentity that many people love, but has also kept them from observing what the rest of the world is up to. They also had a lot of issues making HD games for example, when Sony and Microsoft had been making them for 7 years by that point - A fact you'd think they would've gathered some resources on with an HD console on the horizon.

Unfortunately, this time they choose to ignore a topic that is very, very big and is a touchy subject for a lot of people.

But I think Japanese culture itself plays a large role in this situation too. We tend to forget it because they are such a big part of geek media, but they're a very traditional and closed off society.
 

Something Amyss

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Eve Charm said:
[

Hmm the same can be said about the mob of people forming ready to bash nintendo on nothing more then their own assertions of how they feel.
That was my point, though. Someone criticising said "mob" for doing the same thing they're doing.

Hell, even you editorialised. Self-awareness?

Dragonbums said:
Well for one it's been clarified that the glitch patch had nothing to do with fixing the "mistake" that you can ship two males together to have a baby.
Which only partially addresses the issue and doesn't justify your affirmative claim any more than the opposition.

Secondly it's like somebody said above "Your either against or for".
Still waiting for a real example. Closest I've heard so far were:

RatherDull said:
And people who are indifferent to it are part of the problem.
And:

Lieju said:
The thing is, it was Nintendo that decided to have a stance on the matter of homosexual relationships.
Neither of which are as draconian or histrionic as fits the bill. And both of which are valid, and I especially agree with the latter, for as the blessed prophet Neil Peart once said, "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." Doesn't mean they are actually homophobic, but it actually is an anti-gay stance no matter what their feelings are. Even if they label it as "pro-family" or just "technical."

I'd also point out I'm the only one to provide such examples. None of the people claiming it have offered a real one, and Shinji dropped it entirely.

I'm not bending over backwards for Nintendo on anything.
I must have imagined the part where you made assurances about how Nintendo felt on gays, then. Except it's in your post, and in the quoted text and....

the hidden eagle said:
You do realize the same can be said for people who hate Nintendo right?
Since I've had to address this one twice, I'll point out that the clue should have been in the post you're quoting.

Why do people feel the need to bend over backwards to protect Nintendo? You honestly have no more clue than the people you're complaining about how they feel about gay people, so isn't it a double standard to have a go at them, then insert your own assertions?
You see, I was pointing out that she was doing the same thing by asserting they didn't hate gays that they were doing by asserting they did, and that it was a double standard, then, to complain about them doing the same thing.

Why do people feel the need to take jabs at Nintendo every time they're mentioned?
Feel free to ask that to someone relevant. You do seem to be quick to defend Nintendo at any turn, so perhaps you're projecting, but otherwise, it doesn't work, since I didn't take a stance on Nintendo's feelings on gays, unlike DB. That was the whole point of the line you mocked.

If you're going to make excuses, "but they do it too!" is a poor one when the poster in question has already acknowledged that notion.

Casual Shinji said:
Nintendo have kind of been stuck in their ways for a while now, and with this game it seems to seriously bite them in the ass.
Nintendo being "stuck in their ways" is and has been a larger problem than just gays, and one I think deserves to bite them in the ass (and again, not just for gay rights or whatever).

Still, that doesn't address the notion that you have no more grounds to assert than they do. If anything, claiming them to be a "traditional Japanese" company (something you introduced yourself) should give the LGBT complaints some weight. And you haven't provided me with an actual "with us or against us" claim.
 

Anthony Corrigan

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Casual Shinji said:
Dragonbums said:
Except that this game is quite old in terms of development anyway and is just getting a translation port. Animal Crossing came out after this game and they allow players to dress in clothing of the opposite sex and have two very visible NPC's who are of one gender, but act and dress like the complete opposite. So it's clear that they are slowly fixing it. Granted I'm not exactly sure why they are considered stuck in their ways when Bioware can't even do the same thing without people pointing and yelling that they are with the "PC crowd" and shoehorning homosexuals down our throats. Maybe Nintendo knows the American audience a lot more than we like to admit in that category.
Bioware gets criticized mainly for making the relationships revolve around sex, not the inclusion of non-hetero relations.

Nintendo has always been in a bubble. This has given them that unique indentity that many people love, but has also kept them from observing what the rest of the world is up to. They also had a lot of issues making HD games for example, when Sony and Microsoft had been making them for 7 years by that point - A fact you'd think they would've gathered some resources on with an HD console on the horizon.

Unfortunately, this time they choose to ignore a topic that is very, very big and is a touchy subject for a lot of people.

But I think Japanese culture itself plays a large role in this situation too. We tend to forget it because they are such a big part of geek media, but they're a very traditional and closed off society.
isn't Sony ALSO Japaneses?
 

anthony87

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Zachary Amaranth said:
And you haven't provided me with an actual "with us or against us" claim.
I hate to jump into the middle of a converation here but since you seem to be incapable of reading the post that's directly above your initial post in this thread, here you go:

RatherDull said:
Issues like racism, sexism and LGBTQ are all fighting an uphill battle. And people who are indifferent to it are part of the problem.
And from the same person in another thread on the matter:

RatherDull said:
When it comes to issues of LGBTQ, if you're not with us then you're part of the problem.

The biggest issue being faced is apathy or indifference to the issue and having it be ignored.