Tomadachi Life Conspiracy: Because Nintendo Just can't catch a break these days

Dragonbums

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Casual Shinji said:
Bioware gets criticized mainly for making the relationships revolve around sex, not the inclusion of non-hetero relations.
But they have also been heavily criticized for "shoehorning" gay relationships into all of their games. Dragon Age 2 was the most the game with the most complaints like theses.



them from observing what the rest of the world is up to.
Except what relation does that have to them including homosexual couples and other LGBTQ+ relationships. Which I also just pointed out that they have slowly started to do anyway. Even so compared to the rest of the gaming world the only companies that come to mind that even remotely did anything close to this is Bioware, the devs of Saint Row, and Nintendo.



They also had a lot of issues making HD games for example, when Sony and Microsoft had been making them for 7 years by that point - A fact you'd think they would've gathered some resources on with an HD console on the horizon.
They said they were having a bit of difficulty with it. They didn't said they had a lot of issues. And considering how fucking amazing their HD games look I would say for a bunch of noobs they did a pretty good job. However this is starting to veer way off topic. I'm talking about Nintendo in regards to social issues like LGBTQ+ representation.

Unfortunately, this time they choose to ignore a topic that is very, very big and is a touchy subject for a lot of people.
No it's not. Like I just said in the last post, this game came out before even Animal Crossing: New Leaf and games after that have slowly and surely started implementing a lot more of these kinds of things. Complaining about this game not having gay romances now is futile. The game has been release for over a year now, and they just decided to give us a translation port. In Japan the complaints regarding this issue have already been addressed and in future games they have done a lot more of this stuff. Hence the example of Animal Crossing and Pokemon X and Y where an NPC states that he was once a Black Belt master but had post Op surgery to become a woman.

But I think Japanese culture itself plays a large role in this situation too. We tend to forget it because they are such a big part of geek media, but they're a very traditional and closed off society.
Honestly, Japan in general has been a lot better in all of these fields than the US of A. They add a lot more women representation in games. They have quite a few games were everything revolves around gay relation ships (yes dating sims do count.) They aren't afraid to make these women prominent main characters in the game and the box art, and so far they have including more ethnically diverse characters as a whole than the Western market where people either demand they have a reason to be there, or bring up the good ol demographic and business charts to justify things staying the way they are.

So for a shut in society they ironically enough are doing a hell of a lot better in the representation category than the country that's supposedly a "mixing pot"
 

Dragonbums

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Dragonbums said:
Well for one it's been clarified that the glitch patch had nothing to do with fixing the "mistake" that you can ship two males together to have a baby.

Which only partially addresses the issue and doesn't justify your affirmative claim any more than the opposition.

Does it? I have already stated examples from games that came out AFTER Tomodachi life. Games like Animal Crossing where you can dress however you feel like regardless of gender and two prominent queer/transgendered characters. Which seems to indicate a lot that Nintendo is far from against LGBTQ+ rights. You basically came in stating that I'm bending over backwards to defend Nintendo. which would also mean that you honestly believe that by Nintendo not including gay relationships in games they are actively against LGBTQ+ rights. Which considering their recent actions in games is not really the case at all.

Look at your own initial comment. It is very much my side or your side. There is no middle ground. And everyone else who said anything in favor of Nintendo ala maybe they aren't against gay couples because of X they are labeled Nintendo fanatics, NDF, or whatever stupid nickname you guys can come up with.
 

Casual Shinji

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Anthony Corrigan said:
isn't Sony ALSO Japaneses?
Sony is more of a multi-national than Nintendo I find. I don't think any of Sony's foreign first-party studios answer directly to Sony Japan, which is why Naughty Dog's games feel American-made and not Japanese. Whereas with Nintendo it really seems that the headquarters in Japan is pulling all the strings.
Zachary Amaranth said:
Nintendo being "stuck in their ways" is and has been a larger problem than just gays, and one I think deserves to bite them in the ass (and again, not just for gay rights or whatever).

Still, that doesn't address the notion that you have no more grounds to assert than they do. If anything, claiming them to be a "traditional Japanese" company (something you introduced yourself) should give the LGBT complaints some weight. And you haven't provided me with an actual "with us or against us" claim.
Then I apologize for jumping the gun on the "with us or against us" claim.

What I meant to say was that seeing as throughout the years we haven't been given any sign to the contrary, Nintendo has never come across in any way as anti-LGBTQ, but considering they're a traditional Japanese company, it wouldn't surprise me too much if they were.

I'm not defending Nintendo on this issue, if that's the vibe I'm giving off.
 

CloudAtlas

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anthony87 said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
And you haven't provided me with an actual "with us or against us" claim.
I hate to jump into the middle of a converation here but since you seem to be incapable of reading the post that's directly above your initial post in this thread, here you go:

RatherDull said:
Issues like racism, sexism and LGBTQ are all fighting an uphill battle. And people who are indifferent to it are part of the problem.
And from the same person in another thread on the matter:

RatherDull said:
When it comes to issues of LGBTQ, if you're not with us then you're part of the problem.

The biggest issue being faced is apathy or indifference to the issue and having it be ignored.
Isn't that kind of true though? If you're totally indifferent, you do your part in preserving the status quo whether you intend to or not. Or as the saying goes: All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

And no I'm not saying that Nintendo is "evil"; they're a product of their society so what do you expect. And that society isn't exactly very progressive.
 

CloudAtlas

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Anthony Corrigan said:
isn't Sony ALSO Japaneses?
Yes, Sony is Japanese, but much more multi-national than Nintendo. Sony even had a western CEO until recently. And Sony has many western studios associated with them, consisting of western people, with western attitudes about all that sutff.
 

Dragonbums

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CloudAtlas said:
Isn't that kind of true though? If you're totally indifferent, you do your part in preserving the status quo whether you intend to or not. Or as the saying goes: All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

And no I'm not saying that Nintendo is "evil"; they're a product of their society so what do you expect. And that society isn't exactly very progressive.

The issue here though is that while in THIS PARTICULAR GAME Nintendo made the apathetic stance of not including gay couples, people also need to realize that the game itself is older than Animal Crossing: New Leaf and they have been heavily criticized by the Japanese community (before porting) that they should of added in the ability to romance gay couples and start a family. Since that game Nintendo has incorporated many of those themes in secret places like Animal Crossing and Pokemon. Which is what my initial comment was. They have been doing it since then and to go out and claim that they are against LGBTQ+ groups is wrong. Especially with their recent examples.
 

Fox12

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Casual Shinji said:
So yet another "if you're not with us, you're against us" situation.
Who said that, exactly?
I can see that for the LGBTQ's out there it must be frustrating to be ignored by default, but to turn it into 'Nintendon't like gays' seems a bit extreme. Though I don't know what the culture inside Nintendo is, they are a traditional Japanese company after all.
Why cast stones if you don't know what's going on, then? Especially if you yourself are talking about them being a "traditional" Japanese company?

I doubt you like being marginalised any more than gays do, even if it's "tradition."
Nintendo isn't obligated to be a social justice crusader. They never attacked homosexuality, and they never made a disparaging comment against homosexuals. They're a family company that tries to be as inoffensive as possible, and after a half a billion dollar loss, I don't blame them. I'm not even sure why this is a controversy. They're basically just refusing to weigh in on the issue. That's not the same as being against homosexuality.

The fact is that, if they support homosexuals, they'll receive hate from the conservative community. If they try to avoid the issue, like they are now, then people will hate them for refusing to support the LGBTQ's cause. So they remain silent on the issue.

Who said that, exactly?
You, just now. You're criticizing them for marginalizing the homosexual community. They're little more than a kids toy company, they just want to make fun family games and not go bankrupt. I doubt this discussion even occurred within the company.

Also, RatherDull, in the post directly before your own...
 

CloudAtlas

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Dragonbums said:
CloudAtlas said:
Isn't that kind of true though? If you're totally indifferent, you do your part in preserving the status quo whether you intend to or not. Or as the saying goes: All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

And no I'm not saying that Nintendo is "evil"; they're a product of their society so what do you expect. And that society isn't exactly very progressive.

The issue here though is that while in THIS PARTICULAR GAME Nintendo made the apathetic stance of not including gay couples, people also need to realize that the game itself is older than Animal Crossing: New Leaf and they have been heavily criticized by the Japanese community (before porting) that they should of added in the ability to romance gay couples and start a family. Since that game Nintendo has incorporated many of those themes in secret places like Animal Crossing and Pokemon. Which is what my initial comment was. They have been doing it since then and to go out and claim that they are against LGBTQ+ groups is wrong. Especially with their recent examples.
I didn't intend to make a statement about "this particular game", just on the general discussion. If I came off otherwise, my apologies. All I can say on the matter at hand is that I thought Nintendo's original response to this matter was rather unfortunately worded.
 

Dragonbums

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CloudAtlas said:
Dragonbums said:
CloudAtlas said:
Isn't that kind of true though? If you're totally indifferent, you do your part in preserving the status quo whether you intend to or not. Or as the saying goes: All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

And no I'm not saying that Nintendo is "evil"; they're a product of their society so what do you expect. And that society isn't exactly very progressive.

The issue here though is that while in THIS PARTICULAR GAME Nintendo made the apathetic stance of not including gay couples, people also need to realize that the game itself is older than Animal Crossing: New Leaf and they have been heavily criticized by the Japanese community (before porting) that they should of added in the ability to romance gay couples and start a family. Since that game Nintendo has incorporated many of those themes in secret places like Animal Crossing and Pokemon. Which is what my initial comment was. They have been doing it since then and to go out and claim that they are against LGBTQ+ groups is wrong. Especially with their recent examples.
I didn't intend to make a statement about "this particular game", just on the general discussion. If I came off otherwise, my apologies. All I can say on the matter at hand is that I thought Nintendo's original response to this matter was rather unfortunately worded.
It was misworded but they have since clarified. The issue now is that people are still paying attention to the initial response and starting to get really pissed at Nintendo for something that's basically...bygones in terms of this game.
 

Strain42

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Casual Shinji said:
So yet another "if you're not with us, you're against us" situation.
Who said that, exactly?
RatherDull did on another post.

RatherDull said:
When it comes to issues of LGBTQ, if you're not with us then you're part of the problem.
See? Almost word for word.

I have no stance on this issue by the way, so apparently I'm "part of the problem" and will probably be badmouthed, but I did want to go ahead and answer your question.
 

DrOswald

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RatherDull said:
Casual Shinji said:
So yet another "if you're not with us, you're against us" situation.

I can see that for the LGBTQ's out there it must be frustrating to be ignored by default, but to turn it into 'Nintendon't like gays' seems a bit extreme. Though I don't know what the culture inside Nintendo is, they are a traditional Japanese company after all.

Anyway, seems like a lot of fuss over a simple game. The dreaded Microscope of Equality spares nothing it seems.
Issues like racism, sexism and LGBTQ are all fighting an uphill battle. And people who are indifferent to it are part of the problem.
The "with us or against us" idea is extremely damaging to any group that is fighting such an uphill battle. It labels everyone not immediately by your side an enemy, and when you treat people like your enemy they will act like it.

Nintendo has been taking steps towards inclusiveness for some time. For example, there is a post sex change character in Pokemon X and Y. There are two either transgender or queer characters in Animal Crossing New Leaf (the game does not elaborate because they are treated just like anyone else.) They were moving towards inclusiveness. But what now? Now they are being attacked by the LGBT community for a slight misstep and their recent good faith efforts are all being ignored. The LGBT community is making an enemy out of a company that was so close to being a friend. Hopefully Nintendo will rise above it.

Helping people understand they need to improve is one thing. Making enemies out of potential allies, which is what the LGBT community is doing here, is another.
 

PoolCleaningRobot

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Qizx said:
Oh I know it's more common than most people think, however if someone is born intersex they can just pick the sex the identify as...
Well some people just don't have one. People are beginning to look at gender as more of a spectrum but we live in a society that wants people to be either a man or a woman

Doesn't really need to have an option specifically for them? Mostly because it already takes a lot of time to make that (Saints Row having the gender slider was pretty bitchin though). I also think the benefit/cost ratio isn't in favor of it. I know I'm probably showing off all my hetero male cis white privileges here...
But this is the limiting factor. Its just not feasible to include in everything and Saint's Row is the only game that specifically has a gender slider. But these days, character creators are heavily detailed so it really wouldn't be hard to make a gender ambiguous character even if you had to pick male or female. Though simply including a third option for recognition might not be bad

To the edits: I think that the internet likes getting all raged up over smaller issues. THERE ARE SERIOUS issues still out there, gay people unable to marry, women being treated like property, etc. going on and people get all SJW over things like this. That's what rustles my jimmies.
At first I though you were specifically calling LGBTQ in general whiners which left me a little rustled, but I agree that Internet has a special group of SJWs that have nothing to complain about and that's probably where this is coming from
 

Church185

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Dragonbums said:
Does it? I have already stated examples from games that came out AFTER Tomodachi life. Games like Animal Crossing where you can dress however you feel like regardless of gender and two prominent queer/transgendered characters. Which seems to indicate a lot that Nintendo is far from against LGBTQ+ rights. You basically came in stating that I'm bending over backwards to defend Nintendo. which would also mean that you honestly believe that by Nintendo not including gay relationships in games they are actively against LGBTQ+ rights. Which considering their recent actions in games is not really the case at all.
I don't think Nintendo are being intentionally anti-LGBT when it comes to Tomodachi Life. I do however think they could have addressed the issue differently. It does seem unreasonable for them to have to go back and make potentially major changes to the game despite it having been complete for a year. Their press release was a little ham handed though. It would have been easy to say something like, "We apologize to members of the gaming community who may feel excluded by the relationship options in our game, but we are are unable to make changes to the game at this time. We will however look into the possibility of including these options in future Tomodachi titles." Just like that, Nintendo would have looked hip and progressive, and would have gained positive buzz about their upcoming game. What they did say, while essentially harmless, left a big question mark over their stance on the matter. A lot of activist members of the LGBT community take a "with us or against us" stance, which led to the controversy we're discussing.

Look at your own initial comment. It is very much my side or your side. There is no middle ground. And everyone else who said anything in favor of Nintendo ala maybe they aren't against gay couples because of X they are labeled Nintendo fanatics, NDF, or whatever stupid nickname you guys can come up with.
Not all people who support Nintendo are labeled NDF. Certain members of The Escapist will only ever be seen in threads fiercely defending Nintendo or attacking one of the other Big 3. Jeffers was infamous for it, because he would get so hot under the collar over simple discussion (that wouldn't have affected Nintendo anyways), that it eventually led to his ban. This post [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.848812-Sony-Cuts-Profit-Forecast-By-70-Faces-300-Mill-Extra-Costs#20954723] of yours displays the very behavior I just described. You were the first person to comment on the article, and you are begging Sony fans to take a swing at you.

I don't say these things to be mean. If I offended I'm sorry, but this is why you see people throwing the NDF label around. People like Neronium defend Nintendo all the time and I doubt you will ever see anyone call him out on it, and it's simply because he does it calmly.

EDIT: Not saying rabid fans are exclusively a Nintendo thing, it just seems like other platforms lack a spiffy nickname.
 

gagagaga

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I saw something on ask.fm that pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter eloquently:

thoughts on the stuff going on with nintendo and tomodachi life?

It's pretty cut and dry. Nintendo thinks they can get away with "only straight people is the default and thus a neutral stance" because they're living in the past, and that mindset gets pretty awkward when they try to export their product outside of Japan. There's no such thing as a "neutral stance" when it comes to this stuff. You either acknowledge the people complaining, or acknowledge that your product is an endorsement of your perception of the status quo - one that doesn't include these people as a part of everyday life.
 

Dragonbums

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Church185 said:
I don't think Nintendo are being intentionally anti-LGBT when it comes to Tomodachi Life. I do however think they could have addressed the issue differently.
They could of. And like I stated earlier it seems that on the Japanese side this was heavily criticized. Since then Nintendo made efforts to be a lot more inclusive of LGBTQ+ people. Getting angry about Nintendo about it now is pointless. It's especially jarring when those claiming that Nintendo are backwards and exclusive of LGBTQ+ people seemingly ignore all the recent things they have done in regards to expressing them. One of the major ones being in Pokemon X and Y you can battle a post sex change operated trainer and in Animal Crossing two of the main NPC's respectively are either queer or transgendered.



It does seem unreasonable for them to have to go back and make potentially major changes to the game despite it having been complete for a year. Their press release was a little ham handed though. It would have been easy to say something like, "We apologize to members of the gaming community who may feel excluded by the relationship options in our game, but we are are unable to make changes to the game at this time. We will however look into the possibility of including these options in future Tomodachi titles." Just like that, Nintendo would have looked hip and progressive, and would have gained positive buzz about their upcoming game. What they did say, while essentially harmless, left a big question mark over they're stance on the matter. A lot of activist members of the LGBT community take a "with us or against us" stance, which led to the controversy we're discussing.
According to the OP the patch in question had nothing to do with the glitch about gay relationships. However like what's already been stated, this particular issue with this games was heavily criticized and addressed with Nintendo when it was still a Japanese only game. It wouldn't surprise me if the next installment did include gay relationships. However vilifying Nintendo about it now is pointless and is serving more harm than good. Especially considering that the people who are going after them about it ignored the fact that this game is quite old compared to the other released games that have been more inclusive and seemed to nullify those subsequent achievements just so they have something to rant about. (Or in some cases make jabs at Japanese society for being backwards when America isn't exactly all that better regarding that issue themselves.)






Not all people who support Nintendo are labeled NDF. Certain members of The Escapist will only ever be seen in threads fiercely defending Nintendo or attacking one of the other Big 3.
Jeffers was infamous for it, because he would get so hot under the collar over simple discussion (that wouldn't have affected Nintendo anyways), that it eventually led to his ban.
His ban wasn't directly related to Nintendo though. He was banned because they were arguing about whether Bayonetta or Devil May Cry (forgot which game but I'm guessing it was the not shit one) had better hack and slash mechanics. Something about another user insulting him with ad hominems and Jeffers doing the same and it eventually lead him to telling the other user to shut up and he got banned for it.


This post [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.848812-Sony-Cuts-Profit-Forecast-By-70-Faces-300-Mill-Extra-Costs#20954723] of yours displays the very behavior I just described. You were the first person to comment on the article, and you are begging Sony fans to take a swing at you.
Of course I knew that. I was however simply pointing out a hypocrisy I noticed where there are a lot more people calling for Nintendo to be on the verge of shutting down or going third party and yet Sony has been doing a shitty job themselves all around for a years now and a lot less people have gone on the "Sony Doomsday" wagon on the simple basis that only one (two if you count their insurance company) branches of the entire company is doing even remotely well while the rest of the areas are rotting ships.

However that is not what I consider fanatic attacking of other fans of companies. Had anyone else had said it that isn't known for liking Nintendo would that of been considered the same thing?

I don't say these things to be mean. If I offended I'm sorry, but this is why you see people throwing the NDF label around. People like Neronium defend Nintendo all the time and I doubt you will ever see anyone call him out on it, and it's simply because he does it calmly.
Except that anyone who defends Nintendo there are more and more people going around saying "Looks like the NDF is here!" Hell there was even one thread in the News section where there was two pages worth of comments and 70% of those comments were a group of users making jabs at Nintendo and then fantasizing about how the NDF are going to come after them for their otherwise unimportant comments and acting like the thread was going to blow up into a shitstorm. Ironically enough nobody even but themselves replied to their comments and nobody even cared after predicting it for two pages.
 

PoolCleaningRobot

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Dragonbums said:
Except that anyone who defends Nintendo there are more and more people going around saying "Looks like the NDF is here!" Hell there was even one thread in the News section where there was two pages worth of comments and 70% of those comments were a group of users making jabs at Nintendo and then fantasizing about how the NDF are going to come after them for their otherwise unimportant comments and acting like the thread was going to blow up into a shitstorm. Ironically enough nobody even but themselves replied to their comments and nobody even cared after predicting it for two pages.
It just hasn't been the same since Jeffers left... Not many fanboys left to criticize. Though I think those comments come from people's experiences on other sites and this one to a lesser extent. I happen to frequent knowyourmeme and in one instance I got 21 downvotes [http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/686089-super-smash-brothers] for insinuating a Wii U won't be worth buying just for the new Super Smash Bros. Nintendo is the only company I see people defend no matter what

Church185 said:
EDIT: Not saying rabid fans are exclusively a Nintendo thing, it just seems like other platforms lack a spiffy nickname.
The only people I've ever seen consider themselves Sony fanboys would be... You and me. Even then, you won't see us defending Sony's worse practices to the grave. The problem is that some people think Nintendo deserves some special protection that Microsoft, Sony, or Valve don't. Whenever I complain that Nintendo doesn't make games I want anymore, the response I always get is that Nintendo is a special flower and making games for me would be "pandering to the hardcore audience"
 

Arqus_Zed

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Huh...

You know, I couldn't care less. There are people in Africa getting murdered simply for being gay and here we are bitching about some idiotic first world problem. Stuff like this shouldn't even be allowed to blow up like this. Who are all these people who have so much time on their hands they can rally for something so insignificant? Does nobody work or study anymore?

Seriously, the only thing of that entire post that left me with some form of conflict, is that I don't know what the Q stands for in LGBTQ. It's Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transsexual and ... ?
 

xaszatm

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Arqus_Zed said:
Huh...

Seriously, the only thing of that entire post that left me with some form of conflict, is that I don't know what the Q stands for in LGBTQ. It's Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transsexual and ... ?
It stand for Queer. Now, I'm not the most well known when it comes to the LGBQT topics but the main reason why I put the Q there is because Queer seems to be the people that don't fit into the LGBT catagories. As an asexual, I am pretty sure I'm in this category though those with more knowledge can certainly correct me.
 

Church185

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Dragonbums said:
snip for space
I think your quotes exploded while you were typing. :D

I know that Nintendo has been sneaking in more LGBT stuff into their games, but it is kind of odd that a "life simulator" doesn't let LGBT people simulate their life. That is what drew people's attention. Like I said before, it could all have been easily waived on if they had simply said "whoops, we'll look into putting it in the next one, this one is too old to change" instead of being cagey about it. I know the glitch needed to be patched out because it was game breaking, but I wasn't really talking about that. I was talking about how Nintendo responded to the controversy.

As for Jeffers, I'm pretty sure that he was defending Bayonetta pretty hard because at the time he was banking on games like it and W101 to help pull the Wii U out of the slump it's in. All the other infractions that were on his health bar leading up to the ban were almost certainly NDF related as well. Jeffers was a smart guy, but he seriously needed to learn to cool his jets and not let people bait him into getting infractions.

Of course I knew that. I was however simply pointing out a hypocrisy I noticed where there are a lot more people calling for Nintendo to be on the verge of shutting down or going third party and yet Sony has been doing a shitty job themselves all around for a years now and a lot less people have gone on the "Sony Doomsday" wagon on the simple basis that only one (two if you count their insurance company) branches of the entire company is doing even remotely well while the rest of the areas are rotting ships.
I don't actually think many people call for Nintendo to shut down. There are a lot of people like myself who aren't exactly thrilled with the path they have taken with the Wii U (I own one as well as a 3DS), and while we may poopoo on them for the decisions they have made, you will see a lot of discussion about how they could maybe do better. That just goes to show that people want to see Nintendo succeed, but don't think it's possible if they keep doing what they are doing. There are a few people who want to see them follow in Sega's footsteps, but I don't think that will happen any time soon.

However that is not what I consider fanatic attacking of other fans of companies. Had anyone else had said it that isn't known for liking Nintendo would that of been considered the same thing?
It's hard to tell. Lot's of baked in bias that has been bred on this site for a long time. In my opinion someone wanting to have a legitimate discussion about Sony's financial troubles wouldn't have been so provocative. I only used that example because it was your post, there are many other examples of people really attacking the other companies for no other reason than to attack them.

Except that anyone who defends Nintendo there are more and more people going around saying "Looks like the NDF is here!" Hell there was even one thread in the News section where there was two pages worth of comments and 70% of those comments were a group of users making jabs at Nintendo and then fantasizing about how the NDF are going to come after them for their otherwise unimportant comments and acting like the thread was going to blow up into a shitstorm. Ironically enough nobody even but themselves replied to their comments and nobody even cared after predicting it for two pages.
It's an understandable complaint, sometimes people are too quick to throw out NDF, but the behavior has been seen on this site for so long that the regulars almost expect it at this point. The only way it will truly go away is if we quit poopooing on how other people enjoy gaming as a hobby and just have normal discussions. PC vs. Console, Nintendo vs. MicroSony, this stuff has just got to go away.