Tomadachi Life Conspiracy: Because Nintendo Just can't catch a break these days

Michael Law

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Ignorance is NOT malice. That doesn't mean it isn't offensive, and that doesn't mean it can't hurt you. But it does probably mean you shouldn't attack the person who said it. If you calmly correct them and explain why it is hurtful there is a pretty good chance(if they were just ignorant) that they will now feel horrible for being offensive and will thank you for making things more clear.
 

Dragonbums

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Darmani said:
Dragonbums said:
Church185 said:
I don't think Nintendo are being intentionally anti-LGBT when it comes to Tomodachi Life. I do however think they could have addressed the issue differently.
They could of. And like I stated earlier it seems that on the Japanese side this was heavily criticized. Since then Nintendo made efforts to be a lot more inclusive of LGBTQ+ people. Getting angry about Nintendo about it now is pointless. It's especially jarring when those claiming that Nintendo are backwards and exclusive of LGBTQ+ people seemingly ignore all the recent things they have done in regards to expressing them. One of the major ones being in Pokemon X and Y you can battle a post sex change operated trainer and in Animal Crossing two of the main NPC's respectively are either queer or transgendered.
I support getting angry. I support it then being refined into positive action. Sending your complaints is good. but like a recent counselor suggested. Don't bring problems. Bring solutions. Understand the obligations of who you're speaking to. Will morally condemning a company, one that may not even care about your moral standards as ya know making money and expressing themselves are their only really "needs" and metrics for excellence, work as much as offering a profitable moral action or an offer of assurance? Show that
"I am a Nintendo customer and I want this in your game and would gladly support it and find you awesome for doing so" Because I think THAT would work. I mean if we were talking an offense to actual people. Discrimination against Nintendo employees, support of bigotted laws, then yah more of an area for attack. This requires ENTICEMENT.

Except that's what literally happened initially before people blew it out of proportion. The people who took issue with it was Miiquality. However they respectfully and kindly asked Nintendo to implement the feature (and I guess remove the whole game breaking bug part) Nintendo responded in kind stating that they won't do it for this game, but perhaps they would do it for future installments if there is positive feedback.

The original posters even TOLD VIEWERS not to advocate for boycotts, NOT to flame Nintendo for being "bigots" and anti-LGBT so on and so forth because if this happens than chances are they aren't going to implement the feature yet alone port the game over here again. Guess what fucking happened?

This has long since gone from being positive. It's gone on to be destructive.
 

Dragonbums

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Darmani said:
But there are gay families. Gay doesn't mean "porn" or "sexual active" that's just sadly the most 'accepted' context we're often highlighted in.

When did I ever claim such?



Just having it as an option isn't terrible in this instance (Bioware and their relationship strangulation I'm all for being trepidatious about)
Bioware has the luxury of making this an option first and formeost because they don't present themselves as a family oriented unoffensive from all sides company and secondly they are in America. Which- unlike Japan, gay marriage is at least legal in certain areas. As opposed to Japan where the concept so far is illegal at the national level and only a little more than half the population is even in support of it.

I want the option, it fits into the game, it isn't stupid.

And Nintendo never said that it was.

I just think there is a POLITE and appealing way to request it. A way of saying

"hey, Nintendo, I'm your customer. You've provided years of fun entertainment and your products are first in my options for electronics. You are making a fun game about activities and relationships of people in fun town. I and some of my friends are gay, lesbian, transgendered, or queer. You are providing MANY options for expression or just exploring fun things for simulation of us to do. We go shopping, drinking, to concerts, or any of the OTHER activities. I would like to also have the option of dating and coupling up, not being excluded from having our own three guys on a beach scene. We can be the unpicked losers and commiserate in a bar later. I don't consider its absence an attack. Rather I want you to make a better more inclusive product that serves and entertains me as a customer and spreads the theme of interaction, fun, and joy that is a part of this series. I want to feel I'm friend in your nintendo community. That I am able to express myself in it, responsibly and happily, like you have with art and miis. Please consider providing these options or supporting how to make them a possibility and not leave them aside. I mean wacky as the island is if you still want to include the child making there is adoption options or going to some made scientist character to splice or include a shopping for a surrogate, which I feel all can add to the atmosphere and interrelations as the appeal and engagement of Tamodachi Life.
Which is basically what the Miiquality folks did and Nintendo politely responded back saying that while they may not do it anymore for this game, they may consider doing it for future installments.

Are you concerned about the loss of appeal? What number of fans who support having the same-sex and similar options added committing to support the project with dollars would inspire confidence in seeing it being included and distributed? Would you like to do a drive fund? Set up pre-orders? I want to convince you that doing this won't lose you goodwill and customers but serve an audience who supports you and wants this not just now but in the future. Please consider."
If more people were like you and actually went and did this instead of calling people bigots shit would actually get done.

In fact the Miiquality people said that the best way to go about it was to buy the game to at least show support for the franchise and state that you want same sex couples in the next installment on Club Nintendo when they ask for your feedback.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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Dragonbums said:
The Tomodachi life incident revolved around a bug that allowed gay couples. HOWEVER said bug also corrupted files and crashed the game so they fixed it for the game breaking part of the bug. Not the gay relationship part of the bug
Yeah not buying the Bug of Yucca Flats story. You develop a dating game with no same-sex option, the world corners you and your excuse is "The game couldn't work any other way! It literally would crash!". Dude, make it NOT crash. You're a programmer, you don't need to remove content to fix it.

They didn't say fuck all about not putting them in future installments of the game.
They also didn't say fuck all about not making another 20 Mario games next year, but I have a hunch.
 

Dragonbums

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Johnny Novgorod said:
Yeah not buying the Bug of Yucca Flats story.
I'm sorry you like to deny facts.



You develop a dating game with no same-sex option, the world corners you and your excuse is "The game couldn't work any other way! It literally would crash!". Dude, make it NOT crash. You're a programmer, you don't need to remove content to fix it.
They didn't actively make the decision to not include same sex couples for the purpose of not including same sex couples. It just never occured to them that that would be a big fucking deal to them. Especially when they are in a country where it is illegal to marry same sex couples in Japan.
But since none of you guys have any perception of context you wouldn't understand why that would serve as an issue for Nintendo. Especially considering that this game was NEVER INTENDED FOR AN AMERICAN AUDIENCE IN THE FIRST PLACE. Meaning that this game was meant for Japan and Japan only. We are getting their fucking port. In this particular installment of the game you aren't entitled to a single fucking them from them.

They also didn't say fuck all about not making another 20 Mario games next year, but I have a hunch.
Literally has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Nor does it have any relation on Nintendo's stance on gay marriage. Stay on topic.
 

Silvanus

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Dragonbums said:
I'm sorry you like to deny facts.
Oh, the claim's been verified?

I've noticed that a great number of people are policing the tone of those who have criticised Nintendo. As if to say their argument is alright, but they must be quiet and patient above all if they want the same treatment as straight people. And yet, from what I'm seeing, the tone-policemen themselves are being more insulting and dismissive than those they're calling out.

weirdo8977 said:
apparently this happened some hours ago
This satisfies me, I must say. I'm quite happy with their updated response.
 

Dragonbums

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Silvanus said:
Oh, the claim's been verified?

I've noticed that a great number of people are policing the tone of those who have criticised Nintendo. As if to say their argument is alright, but they must be quiet and patient above all if they want the same treatment as straight people. And yet, from what I'm seeing, the tone-policemen themselves are being more insulting and dismissive than those they're calling out.
Don't pull that tone policing nonsense on me.

Everyone involved with the Miiquality campaign completely corrupted the original message of the video in the first place. The man specifically said not to do any of the shit that's being pulled now in regards to this issue.

He said write a letter to Nintendo, show support on Twitter/Facebook/Tumblr about it or complete the pre buy survey of the game to tell them you would like to see this in future installments.

That did not include spreading misinformation about the nature of same sex couples in the game, mudslinging, name slandering, calling them bigots/homophobes/exclusionary, boycott the game and being an all around ass.

This was public bullying at it's finest. I'm glad they are going to put same sex relationships in their next game installments but I had hoped it would of came about in a way through actual dogged activism.

Not opinion bullying and slander.


Especially when Nintendo themselves directly replied to the Miiquality person directly with the very same fucking answer as listed below in regards to the issue.

Here is the original video for Miiquality http://vimeo.com/93044318 note how it was a polite, yet aggressive plea to Nintendo to include same sex marriage and didn't involve calling Nintendo bigots.


Here is the true nature of the bug in queston (fucking ironic that IGN of all places actually posts the full story of this issue and not the click bait trash that's been spread around the web): http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/05/05/nintendo-on-gay-marriage-and-tomodachi-life
 

Silvanus

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Dragonbums said:
Don't pull that tone policing nonsense on me.

Everyone involved with the Miiquality campaign completely corrupted the original message of the video in the first place. The man specifically said not to do any of the shit that's being pulled now in regards to this issue.

He said write a letter to Nintendo, show support on Twitter/Facebook/Tumblr about it or complete the pre buy survey of the game to tell them you would like to see this in future installments.

That did not include spreading misinformation about the nature of same sex couples in the game, mudslinging, name slandering, calling them bigots/homophobes/exclusionary, boycott the game and being an all around ass.

This was public bullying at it's finest. I'm glad they are going to put same sex relationships in their next game installments but I had hoped it would of came about in a way through actual dogged activism.

Not opinion bullying and slander.


Especially when Nintendo themselves directly replied to the Miiquality person directly with the very same fucking answer as listed below in regards to the issue.

Here is the original video for Miiquality http://vimeo.com/93044318 note how it was a polite, yet aggressive plea to Nintendo to include same sex marriage and didn't involve calling Nintendo bigots.


Here is the true nature of the bug in queston (fucking ironic that IGN of all places actually posts the full story of this issue and not the click bait trash that's been spread around the web): http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/05/05/nintendo-on-gay-marriage-and-tomodachi-life
Firstly, I did not intend that point to single you out. I can see how it may have come across that way, though, I should have been clearer. It was a general point.

Secondly, I'll make it clear that I identify more with the Miiquality campaign's tone. It struck the right chords.

That all said, it is tone-policing nonetheless; those who feel it's not an issue (because it does not affect them) are telling those who feel it is an issue (because it affects them) how to make their case, and that they're being too aggressive. I hope you can see why it chafes, for people to be told how they are allowed to make their case for equal treatment. The hypocrisy appears when the tone-critics become equally dismissive and aggressive, or even more so, than Nintendo's critics.

Though my argument was not directed at you specifically, "I'm sorry you like to deny facts" is an example of what I'm talking about. If people want others to adopt a more conscientious tone, they should practise what they preach.
 

Something Amyss

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anthony87 said:
I hate to jump into the middle of a conversation here but since you seem to be incapable of reading the post that's directly above your initial post in this thread, here you go:
You mean the one I quoted, and specifically addressed it not fitting? Yeah, don't go after my reading capabilities for not reading such a post when I talk about it in the same post you're quoting.

Being "part of the problem" and "being against us" are not automatically the same thing.

And from the same person in another thread on the matter:
Actually, RatherDull has made comments that make me think that they believe the "with us or against us" line, but this isn't it.

But maybe next time you'll read my post before accusing me of not reading. For example:

Zachary Amaranth said:
Still waiting for a real example. Closest I've heard so far were:

RatherDull said:
And people who are indifferent to it are part of the problem.
And:

Lieju said:
The thing is, it was Nintendo that decided to have a stance on the matter of homosexual relationships.
Neither of which are as draconian or histrionic as fits the bill.
Edited for relevance, but clearly, I did read that post.
 

Silvanus

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the hidden eagle said:
Usually in order to get a point across people can't just go swinging at anyone who is not 100% on their side.There had been plenty of that in not only this thread but countless others related to the topic,being agressive and taking a "you're either with us or against us" stance generally does'nt work out in trying to get people to listen to you.
Aye, there are problems with it. I do recognise them, and you're responding in a reasoned manner, too.

Regardless, other groups seem to have the unchallenged luxury of being able to argue with aggression and derision. The example I used was those who supported status quo, and criticised the critics; they seemed to be equally aggressive, or more so, but that gets overlooked.

It seems that an individual requesting equal treatment must be polite and patient and unassuming, but someone who criticises those that are requesting it can lambaste and insult and demean all they wish. There is a double-standard.

And, when gamers criticise other issues, aggressive rhetorical devices are all fair game, it seems. We can be as forthright as we want on issues of always-on DRM, or microtransactions, or other business practises. Look at the Jimquisition! Yet requests for equal treatment must wait calmly in line, making sure they don't antagonise anybody, else those who the issue doesn't even affect will turn against them.
 

Something Amyss

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Dragonbums said:
Does it? I have already stated examples from games that came out AFTER Tomodachi life.
You're yet to sufficiently explain how this proves your assurance that they're fine with gay people.

Since that's what I was talking about, your responses have done little to qualify as anything but tangents.

Look at your own initial comment. It is very much my side or your side.
I'd response, but which initial response? My initial response to you? Because that would be a lie. You may infer that there are two sides, or only two sides, or whatever, but there was never any "my side/your side" argument there. And the biggest point was that you had no grounds to make these assurances any more than they had to declare homophobia.

Is the latter automatically my side because I disagree with you? Because it would seem you're the one inserting the "your side/my side" dynamic.

Even Shinji retracted his "with us or against us" claim.

Fox12 said:
Nintendo isn't obligated to be a social justice crusader.
I agree. Well, in theory. "Social justice" tends to just be an empty slur, but I'm assuming you mean they aren't required to fight for gay rights.

They never attacked homosexuality, and they never made a disparaging comment against homosexuals.
Who said they attacked homosexuality?

They're basically just refusing to weigh in on the issue. That's not the same as being against homosexuality.
Opting to not weigh in by choosing to retain the status quo is still for the status quo and against change. Before you lay into me on that, I'm not the one claiming that this connects to homophobia. Well, except within a limited context of entertaining someone's claims.

So they remain silent on the issue.
I already talked about that. In the post you're quoting. please don't make me repeat myself again.

You, just now. You're criticizing them for marginalizing the homosexual community.
How is that "with us or against us?" So far, all you've established is that there is "with us, against us, or not helping." That's three sides, minimum.

They're little more than a kids toy company, they just want to make fun family games and not go bankrupt.
Awesome, but irrelevant.

Also, RatherDull, in the post directly before your own...
The one I've addressed like three times now as not being in itself "with us or against us?"

The one I quoted before you made this response?

Yes, I'm aware.
 

anthony87

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Zachary Amaranth said:
anthony87 said:
I hate to jump into the middle of a conversation here but since you seem to be incapable of reading the post that's directly above your initial post in this thread, here you go:
You mean the one I quoted, and specifically addressed it not fitting? Yeah, don't go after my reading capabilities for not reading such a post when I talk about it in the same post you're quoting.

Being "part of the problem" and "being against us" are not automatically the same thing.

And from the same person in another thread on the matter:
Actually, RatherDull has made comments that make me think that they believe the "with us or against us" line, but this isn't it.

But maybe next time you'll read my post before accusing me of not reading. For example:

Zachary Amaranth said:
Still waiting for a real example. Closest I've heard so far were:

RatherDull said:
And people who are indifferent to it are part of the problem.
And:

Lieju said:
The thing is, it was Nintendo that decided to have a stance on the matter of homosexual relationships.
Neither of which are as draconian or histrionic as fits the bill.
Edited for relevance, but clearly, I did read that post.
So your response is "That's not what was said" even though that's what was said?

Yeah. Okay.
 

Silvanus

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the hidden eagle said:
People asking for equal treatment don't have to be polite,they can be agressive but when it gets to the point where people who would normally be on your side if a group was'nt attacking them,then it's better to dial it back from time to time.As for the other issues you bring up....people don't go into a froth mouthed frenzy over always on DRM or micrtrasactions because it just give the company and their supporters ammunition to dismiss every complaint against them.
But... people do get really assertive about those issues, and people don't bat an eyelid.

As I said, I'm well aware of the practicalities. I was criticising the double-standard. Other people get to indulge in the same behaviour, free of criticism.
 

Anthony Corrigan

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weirdo8977 said:
apparently this happened some hours ago
From an ethical standpoint its nice to see but from a gaming viewpoint, after looking at the sort of game changes Blizzard (for example but most game publishers) make to there games constantly, I find this amazing, that they are unable to produce a patch which would fix this
 

Bombiz

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Anthony Corrigan said:
weirdo8977 said:
apparently this happened some hours ago
From an ethical standpoint its nice to see but from a gaming viewpoint, after looking at the sort of game changes Blizzard (for example but most game publishers) make to there games constantly, I find this amazing, that they are unable to produce a patch which would fix this
when was the last time they ever did a patch? I don't predict them doing one any time soon
 

BarkBarker

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Just an odd note, but isn't it wrong to have the CHOICE of being gay seen as it isn't, or being able to romance whoever you wish in a game? I also think there is no way to win these sort of situations, let them be gay and you get "its just like being hetero, you just skinned it essentially!", make it special and you get "why are gays not treated equally!" there is no right answer. I think that it should reflect the real world, and that most of the world is straight, some people are gay, and some are bisexual. There, all games are JUST life the real world, if you have problems then tell that to life itself, you are being fully represented, pat yourself on the back!
 

ReservoirAngel

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ProfMcStevie said:
Just an odd note, but isn't it wrong to have the CHOICE of being gay seen as it isn't, or being able to romance whoever you wish in a game? I also think there is no way to win these sort of situations, let them be gay and you get "its just like being hetero, you just skinned it essentially!", make it special and you get "why are gays not treated equally!" there is no right answer. I think that it should reflect the real world, and that most of the world is straight, some people are gay, and some are bisexual. There, all games are JUST life the real world, if you have problems then tell that to life itself, you are being fully represented, pat yourself on the back!
Speaking as one of the gays, being gay IS essentially the same thing as being heterosexual. The only real tangible, measurable difference is the specifics of the genitals involved in the sex and since I doubt a Nintendo game like this will feature interactive sex scenes, I doubt anyone's going to be screaming that first hypothetical all that much.