Tomb Raider Dev: Rape is Not in Our Vocabulary

[Eyelicker]

Okay, so they're taking it in a different direction and making it a bit more gritty and "real", for better or worse, so what's wrong with including threat of rape as part of this new atmosphere.

In genre fiction it's usually no more than a lazy excuse for a female character to kill someone or go on a revenge spree or whatever, and video game storytelling being what it is I find it hard to imagine that this game would rise above that level, but I will agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with it.

However, Crystal Dynamics are handling an established franchise here - not as strong as it once was perhaps, but a recognised brand nonetheless, and some people are going to react badly if they find Pepsi in their Coke can.

The upside of TR being a big name is that they've got an existing fanbase who will talk the game up, give it lots of publicity and buzz, and ideally pre-order it or buy on release day, based entirely on their affection for and/or trust in the brand... and the downside is that said fanbase will flip out if they don't feel that the new direction is appropriate for the character.

This would never have become such a major talking point if it was a new IP.

Ok, glad that you see that nothing is inherently wrong with it, which is my main point, and how I feel a lot of the media knee jerk is essentially stating it.

As for a lazy excuse is it any worse than the reasons in any other (often perfectly good) games for people to kill each other? In the majority of games plot is basically only there to provide a reasonable backdrop for mass slaughter. I reserve my judgement on it's execution until I play it, but I feel everyone is writing it off prematurely, and from what I see in the trailer it looks intense, claustrophobic, desperate, and all kinds of things which aid immersion. Basically, well executed, although of course this is my entirely subjective opinion.

And finally on your last point, every time an IP is taken in a new direction everyone flips out because its not how it "should" be in their minds. Like I said, for better or worse, we'll see how it goes, I'm sure you've been both pleasantly surprised and bitterly disappointed whenever an IP you're familiar with is altered, but everyone should try and avoid braying with the inevitable backlash with overuse of the word "should".

 

[Diana Kingston-Gabai]

Exept that she became a sex symbol since first game? no wonder her breasts kept increasing in size with every game

Oh, well, that makes perfect sense. She's a sex symbol, so being threatened with rape is par for the course. Well done.

 

[Erttheking]

You know, the next time someone complains about the main characters in games being bland invincible superheroes, I'm going to send them the link to this thread and say "that's because every time developers try something new, people flip their shit before the game is even released". Seriously, this is why every single person who stars in a game is either Marcus Fenix or Master Chief. Apparently having your hero being vulnerable just makes the main character completely helpless and weak, for the love of God people, this isn't Other M. Other M is where a hero clammed up at the dragon she had killed five times before and took orders from someone she had daddy issues from. Lara has never been on any adventures before and has to take care of herself, gets assaulted but manages to fight her attacker off and has to fight her way through the game with no one to rely upon. It's been said a thousand times before but it bears repeating. This is an origins story. I don't care how badass Lara was in previous games, she didn't come out of the womb wisecracking and shooting people in the head. In reality the video games industry would benefit from more mature storytelling like this with more vulnerable characters in more intense situations instead of generic Pvt. mcblandy bland killing Russian invaders for the umpteenth time, in fact if this had been done with a man in his mid 30s everyone would be applauding it, but apparently doing it with a teenage girl is sexist because apparently it's wrong to have something bad happen to women in fiction. I love writing, but if this reaction is anything to go by, I never ever EVER want to write for video games.

 

[Formica Archonis]

According to Crystal Dynamics, a little groping doesn't constitute sexual assault.

As someone who just got done reading the latest in a disgustingly long line of "lone woman vs. a crowd of Egyptian men" stories, I was unprepared for how much that that line makes me want to kill someone.

 

[beniki]

I don't know if having Lara Croft be the victim of a sexual assault is a bad thing anyway.

I get Jim's point that some rape victims may play the game, and would of course get upset by it, and for something as juvenile as Day of the Ten Tentacle, then yeah, that is pretty messed up.

But the context for this game is that it IS a life changing event for her, and instead of becoming a weak submissive out of it, Lara becomes an ass kicking adventurer, and one of the strongest, if a little over endowed, female characters in gaming.

I'm not saying rape in video games is perfectly acceptable in all situations... I'm just saying that maybe this would have been a good part of her back story. And make her a stronger character because of it.

I wish they'd have stuck to their story, and just made damn sure they made a mature story line out of it. This back pedalling isn't going to advance the media, and just makes it look like they were planning on an immature plot line all along.

 

[zombiesinc]

This whole outburst in the gaming media about rape, or rather, the avoidance of anything related to rape, is beyond stupid. It's obvious that this guy's comments about a scene in the game weren't communicated very well, and now look at what we're dealing with. A company assuring us there's nothing too personal and explicit within a game, period, ever, no way. The issue I have with this entire debacle is that it's going to discourage developers from pushing video games in new directions. Don't get me wrong, I'm not disappointed that it's now very, very unlikely we'll ever see rape included in video games, but I do hope to see developers pushing towards deeper, more serious and more personal topics. Y'know, breaking away from the generic shit that make up a majority of video games these days.

So, this entire situation/trend/whatever is more disappointing than anything. Hell, that's not even including TVTropes removing some very interesting and helpful articles (yes, I now understand why they were removed, but it's still disappointing).

 

[BreakdownBoy]

I feel sorry for people who have experienced any form of sexual harrasment or abuse, it is a tragic state of our world where bad men do bad things to women because they can. This sucks and the hurt they feel sucks even more.

But this outrage over this "groping scene" is a bit unfair to CD, as they are creating a female protanganist in a survival/ coming of age/ horror-thriller story where she is not a bimbo with an over sized chest, tight pants and over sexualized looks. This game looks to be headed in the right direction.

It's sad that this has blown up the way it has, hopefully this will not effect the success of the game, as gaming needs more of this type of thinking (the character, not the issues around rape etc).

 

[Mysterious Druid]

I wish they had the brass to stick to their guns.

The game is clearly not condoning rape, and anyone with any sense can see that. This scramble to appeal to idiotic activists who believe this game is a 'rape-simulator' is fucking shameful.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

So... maybe just me, but does anyone remember Silent Hill 2? Just, I distinctly remember that every monster in that game looked feminine and often had less than enjoyable encounters with Pyramid Head, where things went significantly further than they did in this trailer. Hell, he's the only male monster in the entire game and his symbolism is pretty blatant. Oh wait, except for that boss who's after Angela, what's his name? Big Daddy or something? Where it's literally a walking bed with an adult male figure and a smaller figure under the covers giving a pretty clear indication of why Angela has problems?

So, yeah, games can cover these kinds of topics but not when the internet's watching. I actually had to re-watch the trailer because all I could remember was her fighting the guy off, guess I can see it as being rape-y in hindsight, honestly didn't pay it much mind at the time I was still stuck on the "stop being knocked out, Croft!" stage.

 

[BrotherRool]

And rape is an important issue, I never used to understand why but now I've seen more stuff I find it hard to see any scene in a film. There are a crud load of victims and lots of normal people with difficult lives can have really bad reactions or flashbacks from even the merest intention of a film, so unlike most things, discussion of how rape is being presented in fiction isn't really some reactionary thing only affecting moral white knights. Most of the white knighters don't even know enough to know what they're talking about probably.

Only white knights who don't know enough to know what they're talking about however, would argue that nothing around the theme is to be depicted.

What's the one thing all trauma therapy is after? To eliminate triggers. You don't do that by not adressing the issue and hoping it won't disadvantage a victim too much, you do it by confrontation and re-interpretation.

So the very few offended by the scene in the game can't claim to speak for any victims of sexual abuse there may be, because their proposal of banning such content doesn't help anyone, victims included.

I'm only arguing it needs to be intelligently done in a piece of work that is attempting something more meaningful than just entertainment.

You view of rape victims, triggers and facing those fears is not really how it works and the people who go through these things were not share your opinion. Saying 'it will make you stronger' or 'you've got to face your fears' is narratively good and we enjoy a nice film about it, but in reality what doesn't kill you can hurt and make you feel weak and alone

EDIT: Also just to say, I'm not talking completely from a position of internet superiority, I have done some work with rape victims and before I'd done that, I think I'd probably have had similar views to yourself. I'd always figured that rape was a horrible thing, but not any worse than violent assault

 

[hooksashands]

I am so sick of rape discussions.

 

[Darkmantle]

I don't even get the problem.

There is no rape in the game either way.
There IS an npc who might conceivably have the intention to commit rape, or at least feels a bit rape-y.
Said npc then gets fought off (and, in my Mind-Vision-Version at least, he also gets his nuts crashed).
So no rape happens.

So why the fuss ?

Spoken like someone who doesnt quite understand how rape affects people.

But no rape happened. It's barely attempted rape. But people are all up in arms claiming there is a rape scene in the trailer. Maybe I'm watching the wrong trailer, but there doesn't seem to be.

Men. When we're not being thrown into rape statistics, we're being told our opinion doesn't mean shit because herp derp male privilege.

Yea, I forgot what a 'privilege' it is to be blamed for everything wrong in culture and society.

Ha, this too!

 

[Vulpis]

I don't even get the problem.

There is no rape in the game either way.
There IS an npc who might conceivably have the intention to commit rape, or at least feels a bit rape-y.
Said npc then gets fought off (and, in my Mind-Vision-Version at least, he also gets his nuts crashed).
So no rape happens.

So why the fuss ?

She fights the guy off and shoots him in the gut, then watches him die.

So... I agree with you. If the exact same thing happened with a male protagonist (and I mean literally swap character models, same animations) - let's say Nathan Drake - nobody would give a damn. Nobody would assume it was a gay enemy trying to rape him, it would just be a little mortal scuffle and life goes on.

EDIT: Just watched it again. So the only "rapey" thing I see is they slow mo the guy's hand going down towards her waist line. Of course, most people seem to like holding weapons there so he might be checking her for weapons. But he gets kneed in the nuts, and then grabs her from behind. He goes in, maybe to kiss her neck... although it's hard to say because she lunges at him and bites his neck. Then they're on the ground and she puts a bullet in him.

So, yeah, it looks a little rapey and that's probably their intention, but she's not a victim here. She's a fighter, a survivor, and now a killer too.

If that's how the scene plays out--I honestly am *not* seeing the issue with this at all. Yeah, it may be *attempted*--but it's an attempt that obviously fails completely and totally, and in fact serves as a good lesson in 'Don't do that, or you're going to be fed your own testicles.' In short, the scene demonstrates that action is *wrong*--which is what the lesson is supposed to be in the first place, isn't it? Now if there was a fade to black coming back up on a bruised Lara crying in the corner, *that* would be cause for torches an pitchforks--but that's not what they did, it seems. So why are we complaining about this, again?

 

[Vulpis]

Men. When we're not being thrown into rape statistics, we're being told our opinion doesn't mean shit because herp derp male privilege.

Yea, I forgot what a 'privilege' it is to be blamed for everything wrong in culture and society.

The 'Joy' of being the 'majority'. As a educated white male who lives in the Southern US, I get beaten over the head with that sort of thing multiple times over. :-/

 

[LHZA]

Let's try and comprimise, shall we?

1. The scene in the trailer does NOT depict a rape.
2. It does depict an attempted rape and/or sexual assualt.
3. Video games should be allowed to tackle the subject of rape/sexual assualt, like any other medium.
4. Tackling said subject should be done in away that's respectful towards victims of sexual assualt and should be shown to be more a violent act than a sexual one (from the perspective of the victim).
5. Rape should not be glorified the same way violence is in video games.
6. The PR over this controversy was handled badly, very very badly, in more than one respect.
7. Rosenbergs statements were stupid, sexist, alienating towards many female gamers and disrespectful to the many male gamers who want to play a female protagonist for reasons over than to protect her.
8. Heterosexual white male gamers are not the enemy to non-heterosexual white male gamers.
9. There are other ways to add characterization towards a female character other than victimizing her.
10. Overcoming hardship is something you see often in male protagonist as well, so the real debate is it a tired, overused trope used in characterizing woman in particular?(me personally, I'm not so sure).

Whaddya say people. Can we more or less agree both side have their valid points and stop accusing the side we disagree with of being sexist/feminist reactionary dipshits?

 

[RobfromtheGulag]

First few screens, Lara bloodied up in the wilderness, I figure 'Nice, she's kickin' ass and chewing bubble gum like any other action hero'. But then more info caused me to back out on this game.
"You will want to protect her" rang too true and sketchy at the same time.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

I think he's got a point.

The gaming media (and other media), including the Escapist, is doing exactly what happened during the whole 'Mass Effect sex controversy' and numerous other instances of such bad reporting. There isn't a rape scene in the new Tomb Raider trailer. There may be an attempted rape scene, but if you can't understand the difference then you probably shouldn't be writing about it in the first place.

Also, this whole controversy has shown exactly what the problem is with the gaming community right now. In that trailer Lara is beaten, broken, bloodied, pushed to the limits of her endurance and beyond and discovers the strength to do things she never thought she could. It's a harrowing, at times painful to watch experience that reminds us that to become the badass we know and love, Lara has to face real adversity.

Oh yeah, and part of that adversity is that someone attempts to rape her, at which point she ends up killing him.

In a sane world, the murder of a another human being, even in self defence, might raise a few more questions than an attempted rape. The fact Lara has to kill animals to survive. The fact that she witnesses evidence of cannibalism maybe worth a mention.

Has any of that been mentioned in a single article on the Tomb Raider trailer? Nope, didn't think so. The gaming community needs to grow up and get a little perpective. The only reason this is a 'controversy' is because it has been made into one, exactly the same way that Mass Effect's sex controversy was made one by people who hadn't even played the game.

'Mass Effect can be customized to sodomise whatever, whomever, however, the game player wishes... with its ?over the net? capabilities virtual orgasmic rape is just the push of a button away.'

Remember that? Remember how dumb they all sounded for focusing on one tiny aspect of a game where there was a whole world of genocide and trauma to focus on? Are we aware of the concept of irony?

Here's a wacky notion. If you're going to focus on something from the trailer, focus on the death, cannibalism, and amount of pain Lara suffers. Or if you're feeling really adventurous, don't comment on a game that hasn't even been released yet. All manner of things could change between now and the actual release date.

Oh, and the fact that likely that ATTEMPTED rape scene is probably going to be removed because the community kicked up such a fuss about it? That can only be for the bad. If gamers cry out in outrage every time a game includes something controversial that doesn't fit into our very narrow wordlview how exactly do you think the medium is going to evolve to be able to deal with sensitive topics such as drug use, sexuality and sexual violence, and the more widespread topic of violence and its application? Eventually developers will stop including depictions of anything other than bland white male protagonists gunning down non-specific alien invaders, just to make sure no one could possibly be offended, and gaming will stagnate and end.

Thank you for your remarkably sane response to this issue. People are focusing so much on her being a weak character because someone tries to rape her and a producer says "You'll want to protect her". From what I've seen in the gameplay trailer if anything it is portraying her as a very strong character, yet a realistic one. This is supposed to be an origin story, what kind of ordinary person starts as an infallible badass who has no issue with killing someone? She gets beaten, bloodied, has to fend for herself without anyone's assistance and from what I've seen she damn well does it. Why is it seen as such a bad reflection on her character that someone tries to rape her, or touch her, or whatever the developers are calling it?

Speaking of which, I'm kind of disappointed that the developers seem to be backing down on the issue. If the scene gets removed just because a bunch of people don't want to see them trying to include attempted rape in their games I'm going to be very disappointed.

 

[Montezuma's Lawyer]

I don't even get the problem.

There is no rape in the game either way.
There IS an npc who might conceivably have the intention to commit rape, or at least feels a bit rape-y.
Said npc then gets fought off (and, in my Mind-Vision-Version at least, he also gets his nuts crashed).
So no rape happens.

So why the fuss ?

Spoken like someone who doesnt quite understand how rape affects people.

But no rape happened. It's barely attempted rape. But people are all up in arms claiming there is a rape scene in the trailer. Maybe I'm watching the wrong trailer, but there doesn't seem to be.

Men. When we're not being thrown into rape statistics, we're being told our opinion doesn't mean shit because herp derp male privilege.

Yea, I forgot what a 'privilege' it is to be blamed for everything wrong in culture and society.

Ha, this too!

Speaking as a person who has been raped, I can see you just dont get it.

Nobody is going to be offended by attempted murder if they're been murdered, they're dead.
EVERYONE is going to be offended by attempted rape if they've been raped, because we deal with it every day of our god damn lives.

 

[Erttheking]

I don't even get the problem.

There is no rape in the game either way.
There IS an npc who might conceivably have the intention to commit rape, or at least feels a bit rape-y.
Said npc then gets fought off (and, in my Mind-Vision-Version at least, he also gets his nuts crashed).
So no rape happens.

So why the fuss ?

Spoken like someone who doesnt quite understand how rape affects people.

But no rape happened. It's barely attempted rape. But people are all up in arms claiming there is a rape scene in the trailer. Maybe I'm watching the wrong trailer, but there doesn't seem to be.

Men. When we're not being thrown into rape statistics, we're being told our opinion doesn't mean shit because herp derp male privilege.

Yea, I forgot what a 'privilege' it is to be blamed for everything wrong in culture and society.

Ha, this too!

Speaking as a person who has been raped, I can see you just dont get it.

Nobody is going to be offended by attempted murder if they're been murdered, they're dead.
EVERYONE is going to be offended by attempted rape if they've been raped, because we deal with it every day of our god damn lives.

Call me crazy but I think that people with relatives that were murdered and people who were nearly murdered would beg to differ.

 

[Darkmantle]

I don't even get the problem.

There is no rape in the game either way.
There IS an npc who might conceivably have the intention to commit rape, or at least feels a bit rape-y.
Said npc then gets fought off (and, in my Mind-Vision-Version at least, he also gets his nuts crashed).
So no rape happens.

So why the fuss ?

Spoken like someone who doesnt quite understand how rape affects people.

But no rape happened. It's barely attempted rape. But people are all up in arms claiming there is a rape scene in the trailer. Maybe I'm watching the wrong trailer, but there doesn't seem to be.

Men. When we're not being thrown into rape statistics, we're being told our opinion doesn't mean shit because herp derp male privilege.

Yea, I forgot what a 'privilege' it is to be blamed for everything wrong in culture and society.

Ha, this too!

Speaking as a person who has been raped, I can see you just dont get it.

Nobody is going to be offended by attempted murder if they're been murdered, they're dead.
EVERYONE is going to be offended by attempted rape if they've been raped, because we deal with it every day of our god damn lives.

I would barely classify that as attempted rape. I've seen more extreme shit in Disney cartoons. The bandit's hand doesn't even make it to her ass, Lara knees him in the balls when his hand is above her hip ffs. If that's all it takes to set you off is someone being rough, you are in for a long life of being upset over nothing.

Also, should we ban all knives from games because someone who got stabbed might get upset? how about guns for the shot people. Or how about all hostage situations removed from games/movies because people who have been in that situations might get upset/"triggered". That line of argument is useless, it is too broad. You can't demand something be removed/never used because it offends you.