Tomb Raider's Writer Gives #1ReasonToBe In Gaming Industry

[sageoftruth]

Adam Orth was an idiot and because of what he said he got a shitstorm around him, Adria Richards was an idiot too and because of what she said she also got one. Its about what you do and say, not about who you are

But at least he didn't have to endure countless gendered slurs, like those women had to.

The tone matters too.

Edit: +1 to everything that blelian said.

That is pretty nasty. Still, I think it's just because such insults are available when addressing the opposite sex. Is there an insult in existence that a straight man can hurl at another man that is just as bad as a rape threat? If there was, I think we'd hear it, but no such insult comes to mind. When certain fanboys rage, it's pretty scary (and pitiful) what they come up with.

 

[wizzy555]

The best way to reduce sexism in the industry, Pratchett feels, is to get more skilled women working in games

Makes sense to me, at least it isnt the usual "hire more women for a magical 50/50 ratio" shit that comes out of nowhere in these forums sometimes. Devs should hire people that are competent at their jobs, the gender doesnt matter and the fact is that there are more males into game design then females (just look at any game design class, its like a sausage fest) so its not suprising that there are more males fitted for game design then females.

Its just a matter of getting them interested in the idea of following that career choice

This is the first time ive agreed with something that deals with the 'women in gaming' issue just because of how it isnt 'JUST PUT MOOR WOMEN IN GAMES 50/50" (I am exaggerating, but sometimes it feels like it). She actually shows that there are bigger issues in this industry than most people see, where women in gaming is muchhhhh lower down on the list (And can be affected by taking on the big issues first).

So good on you, Ms. Pratchett, I fully support your views.

Who the hell is this mystical cabal that keeps saying 50/50? I've never heard anyone make a claim that the gender split needed to be 50/50, show me some sources here.

Well if you look at women in science reports by the EU (example here:http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-13-303_en.htm ) you will find complaints that the women in high levels of academia are underrepresented with statistics but they don't really say what the statistics should be, so its somewhat the assumption politicians should keep throwing stuff at it until it's 50/50.

 

[josemlopes]

I included Rebecca Watson because she took a lot of shit on video game forums. But by picking apart the details you are completely missing my point. My point is that when a woman gets a shitstorm, it's almost always far worse in proportion to what she did to deserve it. Each one of those women I mentioned had their web-sites DDOS'd, their personal information leaked online, and were inundated with rape and death threats. Men can get shitstorms too, but they're never nearly as bad and usually they have to say something pretty bad to deserve it.

Man says something terrible: Internet bitches about it for a few days
Woman disagrees with general consensus of Internet: Internet makes it their mission to ruin her life

I've seen it happen to a friend of mine. It's pretty fucking bad. She took it all pretty well until they started threatening her family. If you don't think the Internet treats women absolutely terribly, then you are not paying attention.

Dont forget that if the subject of discussion has something remotly related to women it takes probably less then 10 comments for the subject to change from whatever it was into a sexism debate on the internet, and a sexism debate in the internet gets a lot more attention then whatever the first subject of discussion was (it gets a lot more heated too).

Dragon Crowns thing that has been going on also had a lot of heat around it and if Im correct that was a dude, but since the topic was about sexism it generated a lot more attention. You get a lot more to talk if you can talk about what happened and then wander off to a sexism debate. (Like in here)

 

[Worgen]

The best way to reduce sexism in the industry, Pratchett feels, is to get more skilled women working in games

Makes sense to me, at least it isnt the usual "hire more women for a magical 50/50 ratio" shit that comes out of nowhere in these forums sometimes. Devs should hire people that are competent at their jobs, the gender doesnt matter and the fact is that there are more males into game design then females (just look at any game design class, its like a sausage fest) so its not suprising that there are more males fitted for game design then females.

Its just a matter of getting them interested in the idea of following that career choice

This is the first time ive agreed with something that deals with the 'women in gaming' issue just because of how it isnt 'JUST PUT MOOR WOMEN IN GAMES 50/50" (I am exaggerating, but sometimes it feels like it). She actually shows that there are bigger issues in this industry than most people see, where women in gaming is muchhhhh lower down on the list (And can be affected by taking on the big issues first).

So good on you, Ms. Pratchett, I fully support your views.

Who the hell is this mystical cabal that keeps saying 50/50? I've never heard anyone make a claim that the gender split needed to be 50/50, show me some sources here.

Well if you look at women in science reports by the EU (example here:http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-13-303_en.htm ) you will find complaints that the women in high levels of academia are underrepresented with statistics but they don't really say what the statistics should be, so its somewhat the assumption politicians should keep throwing stuff at it until it's 50/50.

Seems like getting the 50/50 representation from that is only something someone would do if they wanted to able a jerk about things.

 

[wizzy555]

Seems like getting the 50/50 representation from that is only something someone would do if they wanted to able a jerk about things.

What do you mean?

Well tell me, if you have statistics at hand, how do you decide if something needs to be done or everything is fine and you can pay attention to other problems.

 

[dragonswarrior]

snip

Yyyeeeeaaa... Ima call shenanigans on that documentary. The guy doesn't know what he is talking about. At all. He, and a lot of the people he chooses to interview forget to take into account history, psychology, societies impact on the brain, and numerous other more detailed factors that I was able to think up off the top of my head. So. Shenanigans.

A big thank you for showing these links. A very interesting documentary, I must say.

Don't fall for it.

 

[wizzy555]

snip

Yyyeeeeaaa... Ima call shenanigans on that documentary. The guy doesn't know what he is talking about. At all. He, and a lot of the people he chooses to interview forget to take into account history, psychology, societies impact on the brain, and numerous other more detailed factors that I was able to think up off the top of my head. So. Shenanigans.

A big thank you for showing these links. A very interesting documentary, I must say.

Don't fall for it.

Eh, he specifically talks to researchers doing experiments on babies to discount (most if not all) effects of society. Simon Baron-Cohen is a very respected researcher.

 

[EvilRoy]

The best way to reduce sexism in the industry, Pratchett feels, is to get more skilled women working in games

Makes sense to me, at least it isnt the usual "hire more women for a magical 50/50 ratio" shit that comes out of nowhere in these forums sometimes. Devs should hire people that are competent at their jobs, the gender doesnt matter and the fact is that there are more males into game design then females (just look at any game design class, its like a sausage fest) so its not suprising that there are more males fitted for game design then females.

Its just a matter of getting them interested in the idea of following that career choice

This is the first time ive agreed with something that deals with the 'women in gaming' issue just because of how it isnt 'JUST PUT MOOR WOMEN IN GAMES 50/50" (I am exaggerating, but sometimes it feels like it). She actually shows that there are bigger issues in this industry than most people see, where women in gaming is muchhhhh lower down on the list (And can be affected by taking on the big issues first).

So good on you, Ms. Pratchett, I fully support your views.

Who the hell is this mystical cabal that keeps saying 50/50? I've never heard anyone make a claim that the gender split needed to be 50/50, show me some sources here.

Well if you look at women in science reports by the EU (example here:http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-13-303_en.htm ) you will find complaints that the women in high levels of academia are underrepresented with statistics but they don't really say what the statistics should be, so its somewhat the assumption politicians should keep throwing stuff at it until it's 50/50.

Seems like getting the 50/50 representation from that is only something someone would do if they wanted to able a jerk about things.

Not really, look at it from the other direction.

[Made up conversation to express the difficulty in drawing a line].
------
"With women comprising 35% of research positions currently available, we feel women are adequately represented in the sciences."

"No they're not, that isn't enough."

"How much more do you need then?"

"Until men are no longer over-represented."

"How much is over-represented?"
------

So the automatic assumption is that people who claim under/over representation must be striving for a 50/50 situation, because if the natural state of the system isn't a proper representation, then we need a distribution that makes sense.

The equation would be % men = 100/(# groups) * (modifier for the gender-applicability of the job). So since [# of groups] is always 2 (two genders) and modern sensibilities tell us that the modifier should be 1 (women and men are equally equipped to do jobs), it breaks down to % men = 100/2 * 1 = 50. Always.

 

[Worgen]

The best way to reduce sexism in the industry, Pratchett feels, is to get more skilled women working in games

Makes sense to me, at least it isnt the usual "hire more women for a magical 50/50 ratio" shit that comes out of nowhere in these forums sometimes. Devs should hire people that are competent at their jobs, the gender doesnt matter and the fact is that there are more males into game design then females (just look at any game design class, its like a sausage fest) so its not suprising that there are more males fitted for game design then females.

Its just a matter of getting them interested in the idea of following that career choice

This is the first time ive agreed with something that deals with the 'women in gaming' issue just because of how it isnt 'JUST PUT MOOR WOMEN IN GAMES 50/50" (I am exaggerating, but sometimes it feels like it). She actually shows that there are bigger issues in this industry than most people see, where women in gaming is muchhhhh lower down on the list (And can be affected by taking on the big issues first).

So good on you, Ms. Pratchett, I fully support your views.

Who the hell is this mystical cabal that keeps saying 50/50? I've never heard anyone make a claim that the gender split needed to be 50/50, show me some sources here.

Well if you look at women in science reports by the EU (example here:http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-13-303_en.htm ) you will find complaints that the women in high levels of academia are underrepresented with statistics but they don't really say what the statistics should be, so its somewhat the assumption politicians should keep throwing stuff at it until it's 50/50.

Seems like getting the 50/50 representation from that is only something someone would do if they wanted to able a jerk about things.

Not really, look at it from the other direction.

[Made up conversation to express the difficulty in drawing a line].
------
"With women comprising 35% of research positions currently available, we feel women are adequately represented in the sciences."

"No they're not, that isn't enough."

"How much more do you need then?"

"Until men are no longer over-represented."

"How much is over-represented?"
------

So the automatic assumption is that people who claim under/over representation must be striving for a 50/50 situation, because if the natural state of the system isn't a proper representation, then we need a distribution that makes sense.

The equation would be % men = 100/(# groups) * (modifier for the gender-applicability of the job). So since [# of groups] is always 2 (two genders) and modern sensibilities tell us that the modifier should be 1 (women and men are equally equipped to do jobs), it breaks down to % men = 100/2 * 1 = 50. Always.

Because these kind of conversations almost always end with me getting a warning or temp ban. I'm just going to respond with a picture of Rarity fighting a giant crab.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Who the hell is this mystical cabal that keeps saying 50/50? I've never heard anyone make a claim that the gender split needed to be 50/50, show me some sources here.

This.

The only time I see this is when people strawman. Usually, when people (like me) suggest that more women would be good, I get angry responses about how 50/50 makes no sense. But I never said 50/50 - I said "more".

 

[EvilRoy]

The best way to reduce sexism in the industry, Pratchett feels, is to get more skilled women working in games

Makes sense to me, at least it isnt the usual "hire more women for a magical 50/50 ratio" shit that comes out of nowhere in these forums sometimes. Devs should hire people that are competent at their jobs, the gender doesnt matter and the fact is that there are more males into game design then females (just look at any game design class, its like a sausage fest) so its not suprising that there are more males fitted for game design then females.

Its just a matter of getting them interested in the idea of following that career choice

This is the first time ive agreed with something that deals with the 'women in gaming' issue just because of how it isnt 'JUST PUT MOOR WOMEN IN GAMES 50/50" (I am exaggerating, but sometimes it feels like it). She actually shows that there are bigger issues in this industry than most people see, where women in gaming is muchhhhh lower down on the list (And can be affected by taking on the big issues first).

So good on you, Ms. Pratchett, I fully support your views.

Who the hell is this mystical cabal that keeps saying 50/50? I've never heard anyone make a claim that the gender split needed to be 50/50, show me some sources here.

Well if you look at women in science reports by the EU (example here:http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-13-303_en.htm ) you will find complaints that the women in high levels of academia are underrepresented with statistics but they don't really say what the statistics should be, so its somewhat the assumption politicians should keep throwing stuff at it until it's 50/50.

Seems like getting the 50/50 representation from that is only something someone would do if they wanted to able a jerk about things.

Not really, look at it from the other direction.

[Made up conversation to express the difficulty in drawing a line].
------
"With women comprising 35% of research positions currently available, we feel women are adequately represented in the sciences."

"No they're not, that isn't enough."

"How much more do you need then?"

"Until men are no longer over-represented."

"How much is over-represented?"
------

So the automatic assumption is that people who claim under/over representation must be striving for a 50/50 situation, because if the natural state of the system isn't a proper representation, then we need a distribution that makes sense.

The equation would be % men = 100/(# groups) * (modifier for the gender-applicability of the job). So since [# of groups] is always 2 (two genders) and modern sensibilities tell us that the modifier should be 1 (women and men are equally equipped to do jobs), it breaks down to % men = 100/2 * 1 = 50. Always.

Because these kind of conversations almost always end with me getting a warning or temp ban. I'm just going to respond with a picture of Rarity fighting a giant crab.

Fair enough. Never actually seen an episode of MLP, but its a well drawn picture.

 

[Korzack]

Sound head on Ms. Pratchett's shoulders - considering we're talking about Discworld's heir appararent, makes a lot of sense + always good to see people thinking about the industry in more than just their own habitat.

 

[CardinalPiggles]

Much respect for this lady. Instead of going on about perfect equality because reasons she is simply trying to make the industry better for everyone, without fuss or uproar.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

Everyone seems to think this is a great idea. I don't trust it. No one EVER agrees on these things. There has got to be some hidden group on the internet violently opposed to it that is just waiting to surface.

I also think this is a great idea, while the one reason why stuff was trying to bring to light that there is a problem (unfortunately didn't really seem to succeed at all) I can see it more than anything giving women reasons not to enter the industry. Particularly with the negative response that comes whenever a women is "foolish" enough to criticize it. With any luck this will do the opposite and show that there is more than just that

 

[TTYTYTTYYTTYTTTY]

Who the hell is this mystical cabal that keeps saying 50/50? I've never heard anyone make a claim that the gender split needed to be 50/50, show me some sources here.

This.

The only time I see this is when people strawman. Usually, when people (like me) suggest that more women would be good, I get angry responses about how 50/50 makes no sense. But I never said 50/50 - I said "more".

When does "more" end?

I think she makes a very good point about the need to emphasise he positives as well as being honest about the negatives. If there are to be more women (as well as more people in general) interested in creating games, telling them all of the problems involved is not going to encourage them, it's just going to cripple the amount of people showing interest.

Especially as working in the gaming industry is not something you tend to see encouraged to people still in school in the first place. So those involved in it need to put some extra effort to get people interested. Personally I don't think I'd want to, but I haven't seen many decent reasons to choose it as a career. From what I have heard you can get around three times the pay with the required skills in other industries, than if you used those same skills creating games.

The sad thing is that topics such as this one, that actually discuss the topic properly, end up getting around thirty responses maximum; whereas the ones that are just an excuse to sling passive aggressive insults at each other, while contributing nothing to the real issues of sexism, end up with several hundred.

EDIT: Point proven. Barely 20 posts in and it's already dragged off topic into a "Women have it bad!", "Nuh Uh!" pissing contest.

Stay classy Escapist forums.

To counter your passive aggressive "pissing contest" remark, what is your opinion on the 'root cause' of sexism and how would you fix it besides having more female-centric gaming studios (silicon sisters?) that appeal to more women, then just those that are already gamers.

 

[TTYTYTTYYTTYTTTY]

Everyone seems to think this is a great idea. I don't trust it. No one EVER agrees on these things. There has got to be some hidden group on the internet violently opposed to it that is just waiting to surface.

I also think this is a great idea, while the one reason why stuff was trying to bring to light that there is a problem (unfortunately didn't really seem to succeed at all) I can see it more than anything giving women reasons not to enter the industry. Particularly with the negative response that comes whenever a women is "foolish" enough to criticize it. With any luck this will do the opposite and show that there is more than just that

But generally there not criticizing it, they're (if they sare Anita's beliefs) demonizing it. Men are just fine with women having 50 shades and other such 'women porn', yet women all get offended at "harmful female stereotypes", I feel that is a double standard. Men's sexuality is highly visual, while women's is more vague and best seen in literature, whilst men have porn.

 

[PeterMerkin69]

Why does she have to do anything for women? What is this, 1912? If someone thinks they "shouldn't be in video games" because they were born with the wrong genitalia then they're probably right. Not because of their sex, because they're stupid, feeble, fearful idiots who let other people dictate their lives to such a high degree. That's just not the kind of person who needs to be in charge of anything. It's the kind of person who needs to be shuffled onto a rocket and fired into the sun.

I understand the concept of the glass ceiling that might apply to AAA studios. What of indie development? If you want "games for girls" or even just "games that we can all enjoy" so badly, then go make them. Don't wait around for men to invite you to make them. Nobody owes you that. It's your world, too. Woman up and fucking take it already.

Having said that, I applaud her. She's doing something, even if it is just rustling cattle. The prey, I make no apologies for them.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

When does "more" end?

Slippery Slope Fallacy. Your "argument" fails.

having more female-centric gaming studios (silicon sisters?) that appeal to more women, then just those that are already gamers.

The person you quoted said nothing about that. You appear to be making up things to be upset about.

If you want to pick a fight over things people didn't say, do it elsewhere.

 

[Legion]

To counter your passive aggressive "pissing contest" remark, what is your opinion on the 'root cause' of sexism and how would you fix it besides having more female-centric gaming studios (silicon sisters?) that appeal to more women, then just those that are already gamers.

My "pissing contest" comment was not passive aggressive. It was pointing out people's inability to stay on topic in favour of finding any excuse to argue with or insult one another, while pretending to be making serious points about sexism.

The passive aggressive comment was the "Stay Classy" part, but to be honest I don't really care, as I am sick of people being unable to keep their petty arguments in topics where they are at least somewhat relevant, rather than dragging them into every discussion.

As for your question about the cause of sexism, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, which is about Rhianna Pratchett saying that showing the positives of working in gaming is as important as being honest about the negatives.

Which is the point I was trying to emphasise.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

Everyone seems to think this is a great idea. I don't trust it. No one EVER agrees on these things. There has got to be some hidden group on the internet violently opposed to it that is just waiting to surface.

I also think this is a great idea, while the one reason why stuff was trying to bring to light that there is a problem (unfortunately didn't really seem to succeed at all) I can see it more than anything giving women reasons not to enter the industry. Particularly with the negative response that comes whenever a women is "foolish" enough to criticize it. With any luck this will do the opposite and show that there is more than just that

But generally there not criticizing it, they're (if they sare Anita's beliefs) demonizing it. Men are just fine with women having 50 shades and other such 'women porn', yet women all get offended at "harmful female stereotypes", I feel that is a double standard. Men's sexuality is highly visual, while women's is more vague and best seen in literature, whilst men have porn.

This really isn't the topic for that but are you serious? Anita Sarkeesian is so damn passive about her criticisms that I sometimes get bothered by her not having strong enough of a stance. Is it at all possible to criticize the way that genders are getting presented without it being "demonizing" games? And whether or not the female stereotypes are harmful, they're sure as hell sad and depressing