Total War Dev Discusses Rome 2's Complexities

Marshall Honorof

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Total War Dev Discusses Rome 2's Complexities


James Russell believes that videogames are among the most sophisticated software available.

Anyone who's ever programmed one can tell you that it's not easy to make a videogame, but is it really that much more involved that creating, say, a word processor? Both are sophisticated pieces of software designed by a team of dedicated individuals, but according to James Russell, the lead designer of Total War: Rome 2, the game is probably going to win out in terms of complexity. Between millions of lines of code, thousands of assets and animation, and extreme visibility of mistakes, videogames are high-stakes, high-reward software all around.

"Games are arguably the most sophisticated and complex forms of software out there these days," says Russell. To illustrate his point, he discusses some of the finer points of Total War: Rome 2's programming. The game has 3,000,000 lines of code, 6000 polygons and 4000 animations per character, 5000 sound effects, 500,000 written words, and 100 voice actors. Not only does this far outstrip the specs for previous Total War entries, but it provides a good estimate for how staggeringly complicated a AAA PC title in the current market can get. Furthermore, slight errors in the game's code can cause some pretty wild bugs, from inappropriate Centurion nudity to camels of bizarre proportions.

Not surprisingly, Russell says that this whole process is "epically expensive." While the Total War series still courts a "go big or go home" mentality, other PC studios have been keeping expenses low and gaming projects more modest. There may be room on the market for both models, or one could eventually swallow the other, not unlike Caesar expanding the Roman territories.

Source: Eurogamer [http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-09-28-games-are-arguably-the-most-sophisticated-and-complex-forms-of-software-out-there-these-days]

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Blunderboy

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I'm glad I got a top notch shiny PC for Skyrim and Shogun 2.

But yeah I was hoping for more actual information about Rome 2. Beyond "it has coding."
 

A Raging Emo

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Gorramit. I was hoping there'd be more information about Rome 2!

Napoleon/Empire ae still my favourites.
 

Albino Boo

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Utter nonsense. Compared to the software that keeps aircraft flying, runs air traffic control or does weather forecasting, games are far less complex. Safety critical software can't fail unlike games. The worst that can happen if game crashes is loss of data, if there is a crash on A380 500 people die. I think I know which is more complex and difficult to programme.
 
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Well, lack of actual Rome 2 news is disappointing. Guess I'll go back to salivating...

Also, I feel like I should mention Rome: Total War is $1 on Steam [http://store.steampowered.com/app/4760/?snr=1_614_615_TotalWarWeekend_616] right now.

Rome: Total War. $1. A deal so good no words can do it justice. Only up for about an hour and 47 minutes. So get on it!
 

Pyrian

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albino boo said:
Safety critical software can't fail unlike games. ... I think I know which is more complex and difficult to programme.
"Can't fail" is almost invariably an excellent reason to pursue simplicity, not complexity. Exceptionally large and complex code is better termed "can't be fully tested in all possible scenarios". Validated code is typically kept within a strict set of parameters. For safety, you don't want unexpected interactions, while games thrive on them (we call it "emergent gameplay").
 

Albino Boo

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FelixG said:
albino boo said:
Utter nonsense. Compared to the software that keeps aircraft flying, runs air traffic control or does weather forecasting, games are far less complex. Safety critical software can't fail unlike games. The worst that can happen if game crashes is loss of data, if there is a crash on A380 500 people die. I think I know which is more complex and difficult to programme.
Just because they are mission critical does not mean they need millions of lines of code, it just means the code that IS there is gone over with a fine tooth comb many many many times over to make sure it is perfect, then run through hundreds or thousands of hours of simulation.

Any number of programers will tell you that it is better to do it this way than write in dozens of error checkers and correctors.
The F22 has 1.7 million lines,the A380 has 2 million lines, the F35 has 5.7 million lines and the 787 Dreamliner has 6.7 million lines. Making millisecond by millisecond adjustments to flight control surfaces is complicated.
 

Albino Boo

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Pyrian said:
albino boo said:
Safety critical software can't fail unlike games. ... I think I know which is more complex and difficult to programme.
"Can't fail" is almost invariably an excellent reason to pursue simplicity, not complexity. Exceptionally large and complex code is better termed "can't be fully tested in all possible scenarios". Validated code is typically kept within a strict set of parameters. For safety, you don't want unexpected interactions, while games thrive on them (we call it "emergent gameplay").

The A380 is written to the Sil 3 level safety which means the chance of failure is per hour is around 10 to 12 million to 1. This needs high level of complexity and redundancy to ensure this low risk. The complexity is generated by the error detection and cross monitoring of process. The flight control system results are run thorough a Kalman filter to eliminate extreme results, the system then checks backs for errors to see if the system needs to fail over to redundancy.
 

cerebus23

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I would say there is far more chaos in game programming vs your other technical programs outside maybe some of the stuff the space program is doing if we even have a space program atm.

With all the stuff and many people that code for a single game all the systems that have to piece together etc, seems there is probably a lot more chances for things to just not mesh together in games that need rewrites and reworks, constant bug hunting with each fix to insure you not broken 20 other things with your fix.

That and games do not have much in the way of redundancy it is all "unique" code.

But i would love to know the code count on stuff like the mars rovers that have to adapt on the fly to conditions monitor its own systems, try to fix itself, collect data, etc. I would say that has to be a whole tons of amazingly complex stuff.
 

Soviet Heavy

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Perhaps if they stopped making all their games 32bit only then they could go even further. Even Shogun 2 was 32bit only. So only 2GB of RAM is ever used to run it, despite the majority of people using 64 bit and having at least 6GB RAM.
 

Rainboq

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albino boo said:
FelixG said:
albino boo said:
Utter nonsense. Compared to the software that keeps aircraft flying, runs air traffic control or does weather forecasting, games are far less complex. Safety critical software can't fail unlike games. The worst that can happen if game crashes is loss of data, if there is a crash on A380 500 people die. I think I know which is more complex and difficult to programme.
Just because they are mission critical does not mean they need millions of lines of code, it just means the code that IS there is gone over with a fine tooth comb many many many times over to make sure it is perfect, then run through hundreds or thousands of hours of simulation.

Any number of programers will tell you that it is better to do it this way than write in dozens of error checkers and correctors.
The F22 has 1.7 million lines,the A380 has 2 million lines, the F35 has 5.7 million lines and the 787 Dreamliner has 6.7 million lines. Making millisecond by millisecond adjustments to flight control surfaces is complicated.
Just a few small things about that, lines of code means jack shit. Lines can me a lot of things, depending on formatting. Additionally, the Fly-by-wire stuff would be a few hundred thousands lines at most because a simpler system is harder to break. You gotta remember, the flight control systems are only a small precentage of what an aircraft does, there's atmospheric regulation, radar, heating, cooling, hydraulic pressure, engine temperature, GPS, wireless communications, running the HUD itself, etc. Running the flight control surfaces is a small percentage of the code, and it wouldn't have redundancies up the butt, because that invites more failures. Also, reread the numbers, Rome has 3 million lines of code.
 

Unit72

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100 voice actors? How many did medieval 2 have? How far will they work those 100 actors?

Now I love shogun 2 for its reinforcment system just as napoleon before it. My gripe however is that clicking on an enemy army doesnt do anything. In medieval 2 if you clicked on an army that wasnt yours they would respond according to yoru standing with that army's country. If your france but u clicked on a freindly polish army they would say "We shall honor the alliance!". Click on a hostil english army and they say "I will only adress you in battle!" If they wernt hostil but just luke warm they would say "Speak to one of our dignitaries my lord". In shogun 2 its all silence :/


Has anyone heard if they are brining back the nice "feature" back? It didnt just extend to armies either. It worked for diplomats, spies, assassins, merchants, and princesses. It was not only a nice thing to have but it saved you time from having to check your diplomacy screen to see what they thought of you.
 

Jamous

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I have a mighty need. It is ridiculous just quite how badly I need this. Like seriously. Need. I also require a PC good enough to run it but that's neither here nor there. I need that game.
 

Scorpid

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I hope some of that coding involves more politics in the game akin to Crusader Kings. As much as I liked Medieval 2 after playing CK2 the campaign maps feels like simple window dressing for the battles.
 

Xdeser2

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My god

I REALLLY need to upgrade my PC. The most graphicly intense game it can run is Medieval 2 TW on mid settings lol